http://dbd.game/killswitch
Ghoul still didn't get nerfed were it needs to
What we got today is a step towards the right direction, but a very small one.
The two broken things about Kaneki are:
1-The speed of his vault while enraged = it's too damn fast. You can't go around a small rock again before Kaneki catches up tp the survivor. This needs to either be reduced or reduce the duration of Enraged Mode (because it still keep activated through the entire match basically).
2-Being able to cancel the power while still doing a leap = let's just say that if Kaneki can keep this then you have to give Wesker and Blight this option too.
Comments
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Enrage by itself is a problem its just easy to get.
Nerf its timer or cooldowns will affect him very badly.
Mb they need to make his enrage something he should earn before he will be able unstopable/
Its just easy to get now, i wont have problems with it, if it would be something he should earn.Post edited by LordHeXaGoN on4 -
If by "one small step" you mean like 85-90% of the way there, you're right. I don't expect much more is coming, and I don't think it should be. The vault speed is pretty much it.
And the Kaneki can't down you with his dash, which is what differentiates him from Blight/Wesker.
There will almost certainly be more refinement, but I'd be shocked if they nerf him out of S-tier.
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Exactly, I didn't notice any changes to his gameplay. Still oppressive and unfun.
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Spent yesterday playing like a madman to farm BP and 90% of the matches Kaneki was the killer.Didn't saw anything different/changes were too small.
Makes sense what you said about the dash, but the cooldown between it and being able to M1 is pretty bad/needs to be increased.
Yeah.
The issue is indeed the vault speed.-1 -
Explain to me the meaningful difference between Blight rushing at you and hitting you, and Ghoul sliding up next to you and canceling power while moving at survivor running speed during the cancel animation.
I'll tell you what the difference is.
Blight doesn't get Scamper, he doesn't get free first hits, he doesn't negate anti-tunnel perks, he doesn't negate the strongest medkit items, he doesn't negate exhaustion perks, and Blighted Rush hits don't work with M1 perks. In exchange, the survivor gets 2> seconds to react.
Yeah I don't know if that drawback of Ghoul not being able to down with the power itself is really as big a deal as you think it is.
Honestly I'm genuinely starting to think Blight is worse than Ghoul. Blight is stronger as a killer, but the fact Ghoul can freely use so many perks that Blight can't which all trigger off M1s, plus the fact Blight has to respect Dead Hard and Off The Record while Ghoul doesn't, might actually give Ghoul the edge.
Not to mention Ghoul is 10x easier to play.
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Agreed. Still awful to play against. The cooldown between the jump and an M1 needs to be increased and that vault speed needs decreased. It's incredibly unfun to play against. It's just a lose-lose situation most of the time.
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Do Wesker and Bright have an ability cooldown when the pallet is destroyed?
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Is the Killer supposed to be able to vault and insta hit a Survivor, cause Im seeing alot of that.
I would have thought BHVR would be ontop of bugs like this now.1 -
I am not sure how about vault, because they also fixed the thing where he hold you in place, so it may be not as bad now. We will see.
I definetly think he shouldn't be able to cancel mid leap, or more like it shouldn't cancel the slide after it.
Issue is if he would always slide, then survivors have an option for double back, but this way if you double back he can cancel and if you hold W he can slide behind you…-2 -
Nerfing the cancel cooldown would make him useless in any loop and destroy his skill ceilling, the problematic thing about him is the vault that i can i agree with but if you touch his cancel any fun to be had on this killer is dead, and he turns i to a legion 2.0
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Exactly. He‘s dead and the next chucky if they change his cancel.
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Blight and Wesker don‘t need to cancel their power, because they can already down you with it. Kaneki needs to cancel his power to down you on the other side.
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All I know is that the nerf is good enough that I'm only now facing him once or twice every ten games rather two out of every three.
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I believe his vaulting speed is fine and shouldn't be changed.
Let's take Wesker for example.
Wesker can down you with M2, Kaneki cannot. So the compensation Kaneki has is a faster vault in order to M1 you since he can't M2 you at loops. It just takes time to adapt and learn which loops he can catch you at by doing this and which he cannot. It's actually quite binary unless he's Hasted or you're Hindered. It takes time to map it out.
As I said, it just takes time to learn where to kite him towards. If the enraged vault means he can catch you with the M1, that just means you can't run that loop while he's enraged and while he can see you to vault at you.
There ARE loops wide enough where his enraged vault does not lead into an eventual M1. My point is just that it takes time to figure out which loops you should or should not run while he is enraged. The vault speed is the way it is because he needs to M1 you. Wesker's vault is slower because he can M2 you, so they slow down his vault to prevent him from just abusing it to catch you with an M1 if you're outmaneuvering his power around a pallet.
It wouldn't make any sense balance-wise if Kaneki's enraged vault was too slow because you'd just play Wesker instead. There are fundamental reasons why Wesker's vault takes longer and Kaneki's is shorter.
If Kaneki's enraged vault was any slower there'd be no reason to use it most of the time. Just play Wesker instead. They don't want to make another Legion where the power is 99% useless in the loop itself. They don't want to make another C or B tier killer.
The character feels perfectly fine now. I think it's fair for both sides and no further changes are needed.
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Being able to cancel the power while still doing a leap = let's just say that if Kaneki can keep this then you have to give Wesker and Blight this option too.
I've voiced multiple times in the past that nerfing the cancel fatigue is a terrible idea because it would disincentivize the Ghoul from using the power in intelligent ways to outmaneuver survivors during a loop. It would really suck if Ghoul was forced to stare at you for 3 seconds after cancelling power (like Legion) so I'm really glad BHVR didn't go this route.
The cancel fatigue and the enraged vault are the two main things they shouldn't touch about the power.
His latest changelist is perfectly fine. The only issue is that they nerfed his movement range holistically instead of just nerfing the range in which you can pounce on survivors, which is the only aspect of the power that needed that two meter nerf, but aside from that the changes landed him in a perfect spot in my opinion.
I don't think he needs any further changes
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Ghoul is fine now. He's not a free hit machine anymore and is still strong enough to be in a tier. Just hold tight to tight loops and you'll be fine
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If you stay too close to the vault Kaneki and Wesker WILL hit you.
It's an intended feature.
Thing is this is bugged (not happens 100% of the time), but survs can't vault back against Kaneki because his hitbox is larger, which is not the case for Wesker. Sometimes the scumbags will vault back unpunished.
NOTE: scumbags because they know they should get slapped, but try their luck anyway because of the bug.No, but if they add it AND the possibility to cancel their power I would be completely fine with it since the cooldown is almost non-existent.
Ok then. Makes sense.
BUT the cooldown before you can M1 needs to be increased.
OR keep it the way it is now, but make him keep sliding. That way he would have to use the cancel at the right moment so when he stop sliding he would be close to the surv. Cancel too late/too close to the surv and you'll past him/her and land in China.Post edited by Dadeordye on-2 -
BUT the cooldown before you can M1 needs to be increased.
OR keep it the way it is now, but make him keep sliding. That way he would have to use the cancel at the right moment so when he stop sliding he would be close to the surv. Cancel too late/too close to the surv and you'll past him/her and land in China.
It already works this way. It doesn't need to be any higher. Any higher and you actually punish the killer for attempting to make cool, skillful plays with the power swinging around survivors. The cancel fatigue shouldn't be touched. The fact that the power goes on a forced artificial cooldown when you break a pallet is already enough of a concession. It's actually really good design because it rewards the survivor for outmaneuvering the Ghoul around a pallet and compelling him to break it. This is 100x better than increasing the fatigue.
It would legit ruin the character if you raised the fatigue.
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It will not ruin the character if they nerf the cancel slightly.
Kagune Rush's cancel is very similar in nature to Vecna's Fly.
When Vecna cancels Fly, he moves at 2.3 m/s for 2.5 seconds. He can cut this down to 2.25 seconds with an entire addon devoted to it.
When Ghoul cancels Kagune Leap, he moves at 3.68 m/s for 2 seconds, except that he can cancel it mid-leap.
Survivor movement speed is 4.0 m/s.
The cancel is clearly overtuned. Survivors literally need to be constantly within 2 seconds of being able to drop a pallet or vault something or else they risk getting downed, because if Ghoul slides up next to you, you will never make it to anything.
I'm tired of the "but muh skillful play" - I actually don't care anymore. This killer gets the FREEST first hits in THE ENTIRE GAME and also has some of the best map mobility in the game. It's FINE for him to not also have an extremely potent chase power.
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Vecna's flight is one of his four powers. Kaneki's leap is his ONLY power. As I said, it makes no sense from a balance perspective to force him to stare at you for 3 seconds when he outmaneuvers you. What is even the point of using the power intelligently in a chase to bodyblock a pallet or window if you make the fatigue so asinine that he cannot down you by the time you round the corner?
You're arguing in bad faith to ruin the character. The fatigue should not be touched because it would fundamentally undermine the killer's entire gameplay loop of outmaneuvering survivors and taking them down. You already have enough time to drop the pallet or vault the window if you get ahead of him. Your reasoning is unreasonable. He moves faster (which, by the way, still isn't as fast or faster than survivors) in order to try to block the path when he lands.
You're asking him to be Legion with more out-of-chase mobility. I'm sorry, I cannot ever understand your perspective.
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I did not say 3 seconds, I'd be fine with 2.5 seconds and making it so he doesn't move just short of SURVIVOR RUNNING SPEED during the cancel animation.
Kagune Leap is his "only power" but it happens to do SEVERAL THINGS. You're accusing me of arguing in bad faith, but you are too by downplaying how versatile his "one power" is.
It gives him FREE HITS. It gives him insane map mobility. It lets him fast vault windows. And it's also one of the best chase powers currently in the game. It also stops the survivor in their tracks if used directly on them, which cancels all distance-making exhaustion perks, and it applies Deep Wounds so it also cancels Dead Hard and strips off anti-tunnel protections..
Vecna does not get free injuries with any of his powers. He does not have amazing map mobility. In fact, the only thing one of his powers does is tell him if any survivors are in a straight line from when he uses it and turn off their magic items which they get specifically to counter him.
Kagune Leap is way, waaaaay too good. It is actually the most blatantly and indefensibly overpowered thing I have seen be added to the game since original Circle of Healing. And it has just as many people trying to keep it from getting the nerf it deserves because they care more about easy wins than how miserable it makes their opponents.
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It gives him FREE HITS. It gives him insane map mobility. It lets him fast vault windows. And it's also one of the best chase powers currently in the game. It also stops the survivor in their tracks if used directly on them, which cancels all distance-making exhaustion perks, and it applies Deep Wounds so it also cancels Dead Hard and strips off anti-tunnel protections..
There should be a million asterisks here.
Yes it's a free hit, that gives far more distance to the survivor than a regular hit because he crashes out afterwards. The tradeoff is also that he's an M1 killer afterwards.
Yes it lets him fast vault, but only when enraged and with line of sight to a survivor.
Yes it stops the survivors if used on them, for an incredibly brief moment, while also incurring a long fatigue UNLESS you grab with an enraged vault, which still gives survivors time to run.
I can go on but I'd rather not waste my time any further because your rhetoric is extremely unfair. You're neglecting to mention every asterisk because you're trying to present your argument in a way that doesn't actually exist. If Kaneki was exactly the way you describe, he'd have a 100% kill rate. I'm done interacting with you. You're disingenuous and insincere in your argument. The way you're misrepresenting the power is actually irritating me and I'd rather not interact with you further. Your rhetoric would make Trapper sound overpowered.
I agreed in the past that Kaneki needed changes. He received changes. They aren't perfect (I would have preferred it if they just nerfed his survivor grab range by two meters instead of the entire power range) but he landed in a perfectly fine spot. He doesn't need further changes, be it nerf or buff. He's legitimately in a great spot at the moment and BHVR made great changes.
I'll close with this: Let's not further nerf a mobility power that cannot down people, especially if it's in a way that disincentivizes you from using it in cool ways during a chase. If you raise the cancel fatigue, he is dead. He becomes a slightly better Legion. The enraged vault shouldn't be nerfed because you'd might as well play Wesker, as I explained earlier in this thread. It makes no sense from the perspectives of design and balance to nerf the enraged vault speed.
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You are being disingenous, not me.
- "Yes it's a free hit, that gives far more distance to the survivor than a regular hit because he crashes out afterwards."
He has what might be the best mobility power in the entire game to catch back up to them. Holding W is completely worthless against this killer. I'm not even sure if they actually get more distance, because the survivor is brought to a dead stop, which kills all of their momentum and I'm pretty sure eats a portion of their speed boost from being hit. At least it definitely feels like it does from my time playing as and against him, but it could just be because the survivor has to start running again from a standstill.
If you don't know this, survivor momentum is a big deal. If you've ever noticed that good survivors never stop moving at loops, running in circles or doing little wiggle motions, but you don't know why they do that, it's to keep their feet moving. If they're already in motion it takes less time for them to get back to full running speed than if they were in a dead stop, which is what the Ghoul does to them.
- "The tradeoff is also that he's an M1 killer afterwards."
This is like saying Spirit is an M1 killer. In that she is an absurdly strong chase killer who gets downs with her M1, but her power is all about getting her in position to be able to M1. Which means she's not really an M1 killer but she still benefits from everything in the game that is meant to help M1 killers make up for all of their deficiencies like Exposed.
- "Yes it lets him fast vault, but only when enraged and with line of sight to a marked target."
No, he can use his power to fast vault without a survivor there. It works like Wesker in this case, in fact it's exactly the same numbers. If he uses a survivor to fast vault while enraged, he gets a modifier applied to the speed which makes him operate more like Chucky's old Scamper.
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