http://dbd.game/killswitch
New Stats! [Pickrates, Killrates & Escape Rates] (January - March 2025)
Comments
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Twins are probably right behind Skerchant in the least fun to play against category.
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Okay…?
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I honestly think Skully would be a lot more tolerable with the new haste/hindered stacking changes, I'd love a PTB to see how she'd be to play against with some of her nerfs reverted, because I do like the red light green light when it isn't just lol u r slow as turtle vs a f1 car.
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My bad.
The last few I played against felt fine tbh, but they waited too long to put her in that state.
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I've always felt they were strong. I never really understood the weak argument for them.
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Don't think that's what these stats show.
If the game is actually a 1v1v1v1v1, make the rest of the game reflect that.
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Yeah, I personally didn't like how easy it was for her to slow you or get haste from scans, it felt like you were punished for team mates mistakes. That said with the haste stacking gone, maybe her at the very least getting 2 scan lines back wouldn't be so problematic.
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Strange.
If a Survivor escapes through the Hatch, they did not win.
If two Survivors escape, it is a tie via MMR. They win, but the Killers win a similar amount.
If three or four escape, by any metric, that is a win.
All I know for sure is that the game sucks right now. Nobody is happy. Killers seem miserable despite having the game be sided towards them, Survivors seem miserable.
It cannot stay the same.
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Agreed, not to mention killer queue times are awful half the time and I'd like to be able to actually play the role. Just nerf the high achievers already it's not rocket science and encourage more killer variety by bringing those who underperform up to standard.
Not to mention we have killers like Skully who are probably making the survive rate higher too with how underpowered she is right now.1 -
Who actually tried to make that point? I sure haven’t seen it
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Twins are widely recognized as one of the stronger killers, almost always see them in A tier. They are also widely recognized as one of the most unfun killers to go against due to the slugging meta. Most people give up immediately against Twins, thus the high kill rate. Same thing happened with old Skull Merchant.
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You're making a common mistake that MMR is equal to win rate. MMRs job isn't related to wins or losses, MMRs job is to try to balance future matches. Thats why in many games that use MMR, sometimes even winning is neutral or losing is neutral. For example, in chess, a grandmaster winning vs a newbie wouldn't drop the newbies rating or increase the grandmaster rating despite there being a clear winner and loser. DBD has a far simpler MMR system, however. If a survivor escapes by any means, they won their match (even shows in the post lobby that you survived). However, for purposes of trying to balance future matches, the MMR system will treat a hatch as MMR neutral. So to clarify, escaping via a hatch is absolutely a win for the survivor, but MMR doesn't change. This has been clarified before.
Also what has been clarified before, survivors are not truly a team. They do not win or lose together. Each survivor had their own win condition - escape or die. It never says survivors win or survivors lose at the end, it just states if you personally survivored or not despite the results of the other survivors. Again, BHVR has clarified this before.
Its essentially 4 1 v 1 situations happening simultaneously. Since it's an asymetric game, the win conditions are different for each side. For survivors, you escape, you win. BHVR will refuse to ever define a killer win, but the majority of the community accepts that a 3k+ is a killer win. Way back when, one BHVR representative said that the killer getting a single kill counts as a win for them which means a killer can win up for 4 times a match which is just bizarre to think about. The survivor "side" can win up to 4 times a match, and the killer side can win up to 4 times a match. I have a feeling he may had just mispoken since it's such an odd way to view the game, but if that's how they see it internally, that's probably why they don't clearly show killer wins in stats and just leave it to kills - it's just easier to wrap your head around it.
Post edited by RpTheHotrod on-1 -
Bugs, more bugs, the fact they were initially helpless against lockers because Victor couldn't do anything, and even now you do occasionally get the bizarreness that is "someone took my power hostage for a while".
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That's what I heard - it was mostly bug related, but I've never played them, and I have hardly ever seen them.
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If Hatch Escapes do not count as a win for MMR, but do count as a win for Escape Rate, then the system is flawed. Either stop counting Hatch Escapes as an escape (win) or count them towards MMR. Not like it'll make the system worse.
Survivors ARE a team. I really don't care what anyone says. If you take three good players and one bad player, not an uncommon scenario, the Killer will focus out the bad player and it is up to the good players to stop them. That is a team game. You cannot win the game with three Survivors (and you are not meant to). BHVR cannot eat their cake and have it too. Survivors are forced to play as a team, despite differing goals and skill levels, if they want a chance to win but they are simultaneously NOT a team either.
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I think that the game needs larger maps brought back, desperately.
We did not foresee that shrinking maps would in-turn cause greater tile density, greater gen density and greater ability to camp/tunnel.
Maps being larger, with more spread-out loops/gens/hooks/objectives, would alleviate a lot of issues, imo.
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Why are they only showing top 5? They usually show the top 10 when they release these kind of stats.
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There are other things that can be nerfed…
- Remove Vigil from stacking. Honestly, I only ever see multiple Vigil perks in SWFs that are clearly using voice comms to coordinate things like excessive head-on plays or excessive body-blocking plays.
- Change the conspicuous action rules, so that if a survivor is healed by someone else in their SWF, and gains a health state, that it counts as a conspicuous action. This is to nerf the SWFs that purposely heal someone with an endurance perk, so that person can aggressively bodyblock. ….And if someone's endurance perks keep getting messed up by a SWF friend using an instant heal, then just send them a text message in real life, asking them to stop using instant heals on them when they have endurance.
- Nerf the sabo speed stacking. Let's be honest here. How often do we really think solo q survivors get saved from a hook, because a random teammate sabotaged a hook in the killer's face? This is another thing that happens way more often in voice comm SWFs than solo q.
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Let's not forget they actively balance around survivors being a team of four, punish players for dc'ing/going next, and make powers/perks that require teammates.
Still makes no sense how they can do all of this but then leave perks like Left Behind and Sole Survivor in the game.
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I think having some perks with variety is absolutely a good thing.
But yes, the rest is odd. They need to commit one way or another.
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I agree the system is flawed - I'm just stating how the system is. BHVR needs to drop the whole individual survivors thing and have survivors all win or lose together. If you're just hiding while your team is getting killed, you lose - no win because you hid then hopped into the Hatch.
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Forum bug, disregard
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If we have come to know what BHVR shows and what they say about what they show…. it's more of "this is what we want to show you and don't read to much into it"
So any questions into more specific parts will go unanswered… trust me I have a lot
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I'm all for larger maps, but the weak m1 killers with no mobility would suffer greatly. They need to have some way to traverse the maps better. Otherwise, they are effectively forced to stay in the center of the map where closer gens are and are more likely to be negatively affected by the 8 regression limit since they can't afford the road trip to very far gens. Survivors know this which is why survivors leave the far gens alone and just focus on central gens. This forces m1 killers to stay at the center since survivors aren't even bothering to do far gens anyway - not only can they not patrol them without massive pressure loss, but there would be no reason to anyway with survivors leaving those last and just focusing on center gens, anyway. Larger maps absolutely help vs the broken killers like blight and such, but absolutely wreck killers with no mobility. Instead, we should focus on bringing down the power of mobility killers themselves instead of a blanket nerf against all killers.
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No more The Pig in the top ranking. Can this finally be the year? A year without nerfs for The Pig?
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Funny enough a lot of maps don’t have anything on them while being insanely small. Despite your points small maps look terrible and feel awful to play on. You never have a moment without the killer and they can reach you very fast where-ever you are.
Agree with everything you said.
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Forgot to mention, on the whole escape is a win but mmr neutral being a bad call in your opinion, there is a reason they do this.
Lets say the survivors just didn't do well and a 3k occurs. The last survivor just happens to find hatch and escapes for his win. Does it make sense that he then has to face harder opponents just because he won? Of course not. Hatches are generally not a reflection of success (though they sometimes can, such as 3 survivors running out the door then hatch opens and the last hatches out). Since usually a hatch escape isn't a reflection of success, they simply allow the survivor to win their match, but the survivor isn't unjustly pushed into harder opponents thanks to the MMR system treating hatches as neutral. Again, MMR systems are entirely disconnected from win loss conditions - they only care about trying to balance future matches. Otherwise, if hatches wasn't neutral, you could literally have a selfish survivor who just hides all game and never does gens until the other survivors are eliminated and escape and end up eventually getting into the highest mmr tier possible.
You might then ask why not make hatch escapes not count as a win? Well, what would be the point of going for hatch? Dont get hatch, you lose. Get hatch, you lose. Doesn't make sense. Thats why it's still counted as a win.
In the end, the game is designed around whether you survivor or not. The MMR system is completely separate to try to balance future matches.
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now let's ask the same question about how did Sadako, Myers and Dredge managed to finish amongst killers with biggest killrates.
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Considering that's low mmr, I'd guess it's due to new players not knowing how to face those killers, and those killers may be easier to pick up for new players than the usual high mmr killers. Generally, killers absolutely wreck in the lower MMRs. I'd like to see survivors get passive number buffs at lower mmr which gets eliminated once leaving low mmr. This would make the new player experience better for survivors.
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New stats, same replies.
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i wouldnt say so, if something is above 60%, I say bring them down. If they are below 60%, bring them up. Blanket nerfs or buffs arent the answer since it affects all. Killers need individual tweaks. I've been a supporter for blight nerfs for some time.
However I do have a caveat that lower mmr should be taken with a grain of salt since at low mmr, survivors are less experienced on how to face killers. High mmr is a better way to consider balance as that's where players of both sides actually have experience to face each other better.
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You forgot 2Ks.
50% 3K+ is not really the same as a '50% winrate', because it's not just 'win' or 'lose' for killers. There's a third option that takes a slice of the pie.
If you aim for a 50% winrate, killers would be winning far more than they lose, due to 2Ks taking a slice of the remaining %. If you want killers to win as much as they lose, you'd need to split what's left after deducting the 2K rate.
Take Nightlight's stat breakdown for Deathslinger, for example, who's sitting at a 50% killrate. His 3K+ rate is about 41%. But that doesn't mean he loses way more than he wins, because his 0-1K rate is 43%, which means he's way closer to balance than what would be implied by just flatly comparing his 3K+ rate to 50%.
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interesting statistics. All the more reason to keep playing Solo Survivor. Not only is it more challenging, but I still have a lot of fun, even if there are often exceptions and many other fellow survivors admit defeat far too early. 🙂
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Pig hasn't been overall nerfed since 2019, she's received almost exclusively buffs since then. If you don't count removing the aura of Jigsaw boxes in the most recent change, it's just exclusively buffs, no almost about it.
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I pretty much only play solo queue survivor when playing survivor. Just more fun. In the past playing a duo or trio, we'd always just hope our solo queue knew what they were doing, and it was so fun when they actually did. Nowadays, I like being that solo queue survivor for the swfs, ha. They are always pleasantly surprised when I do bodyblocks, take chases, and so on. There was even one match where one guy was getting tunneled by a huntress, and every survivor was playing protect the vip and taking bodyblocks and everything. We ended up all escaping, and in post game chat, we found out we were ALL solo queues.
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I disagree. Making maps larger solves more problems than it creates.
Realistically, lower tier no mobility Killers already need help. This will make them worse, no doubt about it. They will still need help. I would not be opposed to a Haste bonus outside of chase to help them traverse the map, but a lot of them need modernizations.
Making maps bigger makes it more difficult to tunnel. Players have a bigger area to run in. It also makes it harder to camp, since it is less likely that gens are within spitting distance from the hook.
It also means that loops won't chain as well. That was a big issue right after we shrunk maps. Loops that used to be fine suddenly started chaining from one end of the map to the other.
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They do not have anything on them because they are so small.
If they did have strong tiles on them, they would be easily chainable and wildly OP. Instead, we have small maps with mostly bad tiles.
Bigger maps with the same number of tiles but higher individual tile strength is the way forward, I think. No more of these awful Coldwind tiles.
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I would like to throw in that hatch, or any escape, isn't necessarily a win either. Even though someone escaped, they may not consider it a win unless they fulfilled the emblem obligation and got a pip. For others, they may not consider it a win unless their mmr has been raised. Some may even consider it a win just for the escape, like you point out, or extra bloodpoints.
Just escaping doesn't really reward anything anymore, unless someone considers it a personal win. It doesn't get you to the monthly rank/reward goals on its own and something like hatch doesn't raise your mmr. Which is kind of like a hidden reward or win condition to other people. It could fulfill tome requirements but I never do those so can't speak on what they are like.
Even for swf, if one person gets hatch but their friends were sacrificed, it may not feel like a win or may even feel like a victory to everyone. It's all kind of up in the air and up to the individual.
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If maps are so small they should have at least decent loops. The combination of being trash and small is just frustrating, unfun and unfair.
Agree maps should become bigger again. It would finally buff pigs traps and of course allow for what you said. The sad thing is, behavior only touches maps that don‘t appeal killers. I haven‘t seen them do one survivor favored map change in my 3-4 year experience of dbd. They were only nerfing one map after another.
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I'm 100% on board to make bigger maps if low tier no mobility killers had some sort of haste buff outside of chases. I'm just tired of BHVR making the weakest killers even weaker on sweeping balance changes.
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I have to reiterate I'm talking about how things currently are designed - not how we wish things were. We can wish for things all day long, but it doesn't matter in the face of reality. Currently, a win is any escape by any means. Should it be that way? Perhaps not, but thats how it is. Should we abandon the whole each survivor has their own win condition and survivors all win or lose together as a team? I feel absolutely heck yes, but that's not the reality that BHVR designs the game as. My discussion is simply how things are - not how I wish they would be.
My wishes
Give the lower mmr bracket number buffs for survivors since lower mmr, survivors have less experience in how to counter killers. This would lessen how much killers dominate at lower mmr and make it a better experience for newcomers survivors. Once out of low mmr, remove those low mmr survivor buffs.
Nerf blight/nurse/spirit
Remove the balance around individual survivors wins and instead balance the game around the whole survivor team vs the killer. Survivors win or lose together.
Remove balancing the killer around kill counts and instead balance around hook counts. For example, a killer getting 9 hook states would count as a win for the killer even if the survivors escape. Thats enough to double hooking everyone +1 hook.
Abandon giving new killers dashes entirely and start going back to designing m1 killers with interesting powers to compliment them. Start balancing around m1 killers and bring down the high mobility killers.
I personally will never be playing the s tier killers. I prefer to master the lower tier killers since no one expects them to actually succeed but then get surprised with someone who can play them effectively. I try to refrain from double hooking and tunneling (because it's lame for the survivor player) unless it's forced on me (such as one player being entirely built around keeping other survivors from ever being touched - making them the only viable target and getting them removed paramount). If I feel the match is going too poorly for the survivors, I ease up, allow free unhooks, and other such considerations. I almost always give last hatch.Thats just my personality. However, every patch makes being a "considerate killer" more and more difficult - especially when kicking m1 killers in the gut constantly. I'd say i play 60% killer and 40% solo queue survivor.
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Arguably the addition of the 5th box + the search changes introduced back in 2023, patch 6.0.0, to combat AFK pigs was also a nerf. Not speaking to the RNG, just getting rid of the playstyle. Just adding that for the record to show.
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The addition of the fifth box was sort of arguable, there were arguments both ways as to whether that would be a buff or a nerf, but the search changes were unambiguously a buff.
(I personally feel the fifth box was overall a positive, especially combined with the search changes, but it is more subjective there.)
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0-499 is probably the newest player mmr and players probably can't dip below 500 without making a new acc
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this is a pvp at the end of the day and since it's a pvp game 1 side wins and another loses and the loser doesn't have fun
which side will you prioritize having fun since one sides fun is at the detriment of the other
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Edit - bring on the downvotes. This is the flat out math with hard numbers. This isn't opinion - it's the cold hard truth of it.Except a lot of it is opinion and some of the math is wrong. You're making a few structural errors in your argument.
Looking to some of the posts you make later in the thread
Way back when, one BHVR representative said that the killer getting a single kill counts as a win for them which means a killer can win up for 4 times a match which is just bizarre to think about.No, this is very straightforward. If you play 25 matches, and face 100 survivors, and kill 67 of them (67%), you won 67% of the matches.
Which brings us to another comment you make
I have to reiterate I'm talking about how things currently are designed - not how we wish things were. We can wish for things all day long, but it doesn't matter in the face of reality. Currently, a win is any escape by any means.But you aren't talking about how things are designed. The whole concept of a killer win rate that is separate from kill rate is a concept that is created by the community. If you think survivors escape = win according to BHVR, than kill = win according to BHVR.
Using the above example, if you killed 67 survivors out of a hundred you won 67 times. How that breaks down trial by trial is irrelevant. You can't have this both ways, if you want to go on a strict survivor escape = win, than a killer getting a kill = win.
In fact, BHVR refers to hatch escapes as a null value, not a draw, like it never happened. That would mean if you killed 67 survivors, and 8 escaped via hatch, you actually have a win rate of 72.8%.
Secondly, you're confusing how things are designed compared to MMR. An MMR system needs a zero sum game, i.e. a win condition. BHVR is quite clear that the MMR condition does not need to be people's win condition. But if we use the MMR condition as the win condition, it is the same for killer and survivor and kill rate equals win rate.
And finally
For a killer to have a 50% win rate, each survivor would roughly have a 38.5% escape rate. According to BHVRs stats, all numbers for survivors whether solo, duo, trio, or full squads are well above that.This is just incorrect and a common error that comes up on the forums. Just knowing the kill rates does not mean you can know what the win rates are. @Firellius already commented with the Deathslinger numbers as a good example, but additionally a survivor can escape via the hatch and lead to escape rate numbers, but that is not a loss for the killer.
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I'm inclined to agree with jester, here. While it had both positives and negatives for pig, overall, I'd say the party hats became more reliable for her.
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Very interesting stats.
My big take away is how different the numbers are from Nightlight. In the past when stats have come out with a few notable exceptions the numbers where usually pretty close. That's not true anymore with Nightlight having kill rates well below BHVR's stats.
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Like Jester said, more subjective here and pretty much hard to say either or without hard data about headtrap kills over time from devs to go from. Mostly will be speculation and anecdotal evidence for the most part, but my 2 cents personally I'd say more broadly overall didn't move the needle much, possibly more in a net negative direction because it hurt her in terms of her lethality. It's not my go-to, but just to have some sort of reference, even Nightlite shows she performed more consistently at that 60% target range before getting hit with that change which effectively decreased her overall kill rate and pick rate over time. So, two years later did it really do her any good? Speculative at best. Nerf to AFK Pig gameplay style? Absolutely. 2 types of gameplay styles of hers got nerfed in the history of DBD. First, endgame with EGC(Her strongest version of RBT which would have flourished and been very powerful with perks like NWO seen in endgame builds today), and then AFK pig which were both "tradeoffs" you could say.
Post edited by Nun_So_Vile on0 -
I really hope Freddy's killrate goes down. He has a similar kill rate to what old skull merchant did, and that kill rate was their justification for her major nerfs.
I am not surprised he has a high kill rate though, he does have a ton of innate advantages that a lot of the community i believe have overlooked. But his highest potential definitely doesn't warrant nerfs, but there are things they could do to make playing against him slightly easier.3
