http://dbd.game/killswitch
Can we please revisit The Onyrō
There’s a lot you can fix on her, but my feedback please to you is…
Her tapes shouldn’t be so free. There’s almost no downside. To balance this a few different options I personally like. Only one of these options needs to be implemented. Not all. Number one is my choice.
High Risk - High Reward in option 1.
Reward for survivors - 70 seconds of no mobility for her in that area. No condemn stacks for her to spam. The risk? Condemn rises slowly every 30 seconds 1 stack vs holding onto it currently at 0 cost.
I don’t mind what option we use or none of these but she needs something…Tapes are way too free. It just doesn’t feel right.
1) Bring back passive condemn.
2) Break tape on a hit.
3) Ring Drawing becomes base kit.
Also the addons need love. They’re not in the best spot.
Comments
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I talked about it with blueberry. Sadly the devs will mostly likely not touch her because she is a noob stomper and has a 65% kill rate. In their eyes she is fine. I also don‘t think you can solve the noob stomper problem in this version. She spreads condemned way too fast against survivors that have no clue and can be nullified by survivors that do the counterplay.
I would like all of the changes, but prefer one and three. The only problem is that the first one needs to apply condemned much slower. 25 seconds would put survivors in a lose lose situation regardless what they do. Something like 50 seconds could work.
2 -
I agree, that there should be some downside to picking up tapes.
I use ring drawing every game to make this happen something like that basekit would encourage sadako's to hook and prioritize focusing on tape carriers.
I think breaking a tape on hit could be fine. Maybe a bit too strong? Would have to test.
Passive condemned is straight up too strong with the current state of condemned imo. I dint think that's the best way to go.
Addons are 2 reworks overdue. Most are either useless or bad. They need to seriously be looked at.
2 -
First, let them remove her teleports every second. This is a killer who is no less annoying than a ghoul.
-6 -
Do get good value from ring drawing? For me it’s pretty useless in most matches. I miss its last version.
1 -
- Game should tell survs how to counter killer. Not the best strategies, but the general mechanics info. Casual players don't read everything about everyone, but they should know stuff like - condemn can kill You, but you can remove it by moving tapes from TV to TV.
- Tapes should break on hit and give 1 condemn on such action.
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Its amazing for my playstyle. I get so much additional pressure from it. Top 3-4 addons she has for sure if you ask me. The best propably being bloody fingernails.
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I always run bloody fingernails with the iri remote play or witness aura reading addon.
-1 -
I agree 💯
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mistype
-1 -
Point number 1 I agree.
Point 2 I sorta agree. Break tape yes. No condemn should be given though. The broken tape is good enough.
Unless IF it worked like ring drawing where the stacks were applied to everyone else.1 -
Sadako had a high kill rate in her 1.0 version as well. Killrates aren’t the only reason behind balance adjustments. She has an obvious flaw. It needs to be fixed. Please 🙏🏼
-1 -
How would you fix that she spreads condemned too fast against clueless survivors?
-1 -
I would prefer the break on hit the most personally though. It doesn’t reward bad sadakos since you have to actually outplay them to get the value. If we’re worried about it being slightly too much then just have it break the tape, not give them a stack of condemn when it breaks like it used to. That seems fairer. Passive condemn is my least favorite since it’s free for doing nothing and would hurt low mmr more than the other options imo.
There does need to be “some” counter play to tapes whichever option they go with. Currently there is none other than just try not to let them get the tape in the first place, which encourages tv spam mindless play.
Totally agree on addons. Tons of really bad ones and ones that don’t make sense because they were designed for her old kit. Honestly Fingernail should be base kit. It’s too required, you realistically never take it off right now.
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Ring Drawing is very overrated imo.
Basically because if you’re hooking each person more than once you’re already doing it wrong. Which means in the absolute best case scenario you’re getting 4 procs of the addon and even that’s quite unlikely if you’re playing well. It’s an addon that sees more value the more incorrectly you play Sadako imo. You barely have a reason to even hook people once as Sadako, you definitely don’t for two times or more.
-3 -
You have to hook with her even without the addon. It isn‘t visable to not hook with her. You lose too much by not doing it. But I agree that it is overrated.
-1 -
That's not the fault of the killer. That's the fault of the survivor. They need to be aware of what type of killer they are going up against and how to counter them as each killer is different.
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You don’t. Hooking each survivor once is being generous, but acceptable for the lock-in. You definitely should not be hooking survivors more than once. If you were trying to min max you realistically probably wouldn’t hook at all and go full slug. It’s very viable not hooking. Picking up and carrying costs you a lot of pressure.
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I don‘t agree. Survivors have to know 30+ killers, which all have different counters and some are quite difficult to understand. You can‘t expect survivors to perfectly know how she works especially with her insanely low pick rate. Survivors should not lose because they get spammed to death and have no clue what‘s going on. In her first and second version this was kinda fine, because it was slow and gave enough time to react, but now it is insanely fast. This makes the problem of being a noob stomper even worse than in her previous versions and requires survivors to have a super free counterplay which renders her very bad against some survivors. Another thing is that her counterplay is in no way obvious. Cleansing stacks by delivering tapes - okay, but having to turn off a TV in advance to be safe - try to come to that conclusion if you are new or rarely encounter her.
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Slugging is insanely risky and often not worth it. In her last version I would do the same, but this version is too easy to counter and knockout is gone so it is even less effective.
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Her second version was not slow at all. Spam Tp, condmen like crazy. Follow survivor with tape. Break it. 2 stacks of condemn. Insta kill because of that feature.
Sadako is so easy to counter. You take a tape out. Done. 1 second animation. There is nothing else to it. Before loading into the match with her itll display this on the screen for newb survivors, while I understand she is a newb stomper, I still believe its the responsibility of them to make proper counters. That's just part of the game to honest.
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I mean I didn’t hook more than once and I got a 165 win streak so it seems viable to me.
-1 -
The current version can fully condemn you in 7 x 5 seconds = 35 s. The second version condemned you in 10 seconds x (7/0,75) = 93s. I‘m probably wrong by a few seconds but you see the what I mean. This is without the take break.
Sure she is easy to counter if you understand her, but there are more than enough people that don‘t, otherwise she wouldn‘t be the 4th deadliest killer.
I agree that she should have counters, but she shouldn’t be designed to massively screw over clueless survivors and get easily countered if you understand her. She is much less noob friendly than her previous versions.
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I am not trying to screw over anyone. All I want in this OG post is just a solution to my tapes being held hostage for free. That's it my friend. Nothing more nothing less. I don't have the perfect solution and maybe my ideas are just terrible, I am sorry, but I am frustrated. Balance should be achieved on both sides.
-1 -
I agree on that. I‘m also frustrated, but more about either having a too easy match because there is one survivor that screws over his whole team or having no chance because survivors actually do what they are supposed to do. I don’t enjoy either of those situations. In my opinion this version is fundamentally flawed. They should fix both of these things in my opinion. It‘s not fair that either side gets completely stomped because of such a stupid design.
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I feel like the tape destruction on hit would achieve what we’re wanting. It’s also only rewarding sadakos playing well so it would be less impactful on low mmr where they play bad. We also removed the condemn stack on tape destruction that was in the previous version to make it less punishing.
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Sorry but that seems extremely unrealistic.
-1 -
They were all recorded on my stream while doing it.
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Maybe on her former version but not on this one.
-3 -
No, this was with her current rework.
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Not to butt in on yall's topic - I just wanted to note I was there for the streaks ^ ^
I was quite impressed!
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As I track and memorize survivor locations when playing her, I don't have a reason to use remote. Ring drawing adds so much pressure when combined with my playstyle, that it's probably the second best addon I can bring to a trial when playing her.
Not everyone plays her like i do though, so I can understand that others don't value it as much as I do.
-1 -
Breaking without condemned seems totally fine to me personally. It's the aspect of it applying extra condemned that seems too strong to me. Breaking a tape is already a very strong effect in the right hands.
I feel like the application of condemned is in a very good spot right now after is was too weak in 1.0 and too strong in 2.0. Therefore I'm a bit careful with supporting further application of condemned. Especially when the application takes low effort.
-1 -
I agree with the premise, there are lots of ways you could do it. My personal take was trying to reduce the noob stomp nature of her by bringing back some off the Sadako v1's skill expression.
- Global condemn applies 0.5 stacks around powered TVs.
- Teleporting directly to TV applies an additional 0.75 stacks to survivors in range (same elevation only, looking at you Gideons and Midwich).
- Tapes apply condemn at a rate of 1 stack every 40s. (30s seems a little fast when you have global condemn in play and the new ability to pressure someone with 1.25 stacks per direct teleport).
- It takes 1.5s to insert a tape (up from 1s).
I believe this gives targeted teleports and good reads greater value, especially with her hook lock in, while making the mindless TP spam much less effective, and the decision to grab a tape isn't too intimidating, while also not being something you can do completely for free.
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I would be very happy with this design personally.
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This would be a net overall nerf to an already weak killer. As well as nerf her best maps, which ironically with the level change would potentially make them some of her worst.
Not sure why you call it a global condemn and then say around powered tv's. That's not global. Global was sadako v2, which means the whole map.
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They need to bring back projection cooldown to punish lack of game sense and mindless condemning, then they can buff her
-2 -
There is no lack of game sense. You turn the tv off and literally hold 2 of her 3 powers for 70 seconds. Its literally that simple.
-1 -
Yeah, on a single TV. There is a lack of game sense in being able to teleport to a TV with no survivors by mistake and being able to instantly correct that mistake with little punishment, and in fact reward thanks to the way condemn works. Not exactly sure how what you said makes that not the case
-2 -
So turn the other tv off? Its that simple.
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Then these suggested buffs come into play, and survivors have to carefully balance risk while the killer doesn't have to do anything besides spamming teleport
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The killer still has to chase you…Which she has 0 chase abilities. She has to down the you around loops. No antilooping ability. There should be Risk and Reward. Right now there is just Reward. Its not balanced.
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With all due respect, why exactly are we nitpicking on terms? I called it the global condemn to clearly distinct it from the other half of the effect you gain where you teleport direct to the TVs. Who cares what I call it as long as you understand what I'm referring to/suggesting?
Regarding it being an overall nerf on her best maps, yes thats the point... to reduce the effectiveness of her best maps to try and improve her overall on all maps. A killer should not be reasonably weak on majority of maps and then be stupidly strong on specific maps, which is the case with Sadako on Gideon and Midwich... unless Jump Scare Myers is considered a goal for Sadako's design, which I'm sure you'd agree would be a strange design philosophy to take.
The whole idea here is to recapture her original playstyle that rewards good predictions and TV tracking/reads on survivors via TPs. I don't see how it's a nerf overall, considering her lock in is at 3. Let's imagine how this plays out.
Survivors grab a tape: -
- Starts building condemn at a rate of 1 every 40s.
- After 70s, they are at 1.75 stacks of condemn and their TV turns back on.
- Sadako being careful with tracking such things is aware of this and teleports to their TV. If they didn't run early to deliver their tape this survivor is hit with an additional 1.25 condemn taking them to 3 condemn. A survivor running early to avoid this means her condemn is providing her with the passive slowdown she needs from.her power.
- Sadako can also manually interrupt them early without TP, and push them off gens, in so doing gaining time back on that TV.
- The survivor tries to loop Sadako, and are still building condemn passively with the tape. If downed without reaching their TV, they are at least sat on somewhere between 2 - 3 condemn with change.
- If not downing them Sadako can leave. The survivor now has to either deliver their tape or return to gen. Sadako can predict either one and add another 1.25 condemn, quickly mounting pressure on that survivor to have to deal with their condemn or risk having it locked in.
- If Sadako can push them into a TV, or guess their TV and TP ahead of them as they try to deliver their tape, she's looking at ~3.5-4.5 condemn when they get hooked. That's 3 condemn locked in with extra if can down them before they reach it... which is what the 1.5s insert time assists with.
That doesn't sound weak, and rewards Sadako for good tape and TV tracking.
Now let's look at a survivor not grabbing a tape: -
- Working on a gen without grabbing a tape gives you 0.5 stacks every teleport. Lets assume Sadako begins TPing to find a survivor and TPs 2 or 3 times. That 1-1.5 condemn immediately.
- Now she TPs to you directly and has 2.25-2.75 condemn on you and begins chase.
- If she manages to push you into a TV, she can get an additional 1.25 condemn, now at 3.5-4 condemn.
- Even if she can't push you into a TV and drops chase with you, you now need to start looking at doing a tape, which starting from ~2.5 is gonna start the above chain of issues, but reach 3 in 30s or so, which is about your average delivery time.
- Now if she guesses your TV as you go to get a tape, or deliver one you're getting that additional 1.25 condemn. Your likely sat around somewhere between 3.5 and 4.5 condemn.
Do also bear in mind that by not grabbing tapes her TVs are coming back online more frequently, so Sadako is allowed to use her global presence more often, and again rewards Sadako for good tape tracking.
The survivors have this tangible trade off between allowing more global presence to Sadako via TPs, or denying that presence at the risk of building condemn more rapidly. In either case Survivors are having to slow down gen progress to deal with their condemn, and Sadako playing around her TVs well can reap a lot of rewards.
Post edited by UndeddJester on2 -
I wasn't arguing semantics to be petty, the contradiction of wording just made it confusing as to your intent. IE I wasn't sure if maybe you meant it to be actually global instead.
I think your scenario of good players with tapes makes this version look like a buff because it's being very generous in the scenario rather than realistic. The survivors won't sit on tapes so they generally won't be getting passive condemn. So generally what you're gonna be looking at it .5 on global condemn and .75 on directs, rather than now for the 1 and 1. That's significantly less. I don't see how your version hurts the bad players less.
Hits destroying tapes would be a better punishment than a passive condemn since it only rewards skilled play.
"Regarding it being an overall nerf on her best maps, yes thats the point... to reduce the effectiveness of her best maps to try and improve her overall on all maps. "
I didn't say reduce her effectiveness, I said make them her worst maps. Two different things. I know your point is to reduce their effectiveness. That's fine. But your change would make the tv distribution very awkward on those maps if they weren't affecting all levels. I'm okay with this change, I'm just saying she would need other improvements to compensate. Maybe now TV's dont affect multi levels, but maybe there's 2 more TV's on all maps, or their range is slightly longer. This wouldn't make the hit on those indoor maps as hard while also helping her on the huge maps. Just as much as she's too good on those indoor maps, she's too bad on the larger ones, and I'd like that improved as well.
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Fellow Onryo lover here,
I don't think passive condemn should return. It'd make her too overwhelming to deal with when you have to get a tape to turn off the tv, otherwise you'd gain a bunch of condemn just off her teleporting.
I heavily agree with point 2, that was the only part of Sadako 2.0 that I think was good.
Addons for sure could use some love as well.
I also think they could adjust her cooldowns when survivors pull/insert tapes to make her less easy to shutdown. Since inserting a tape into the target tv massively benefits survivors by removing their condemn in addition to turning off the tv, I think the cooldown before the tv turns back on should be slightly lower at 55-60s; it can remain at 70s for turning them off while carrying a tv since that does come with the risk of gaining a stack of condemn.
Improvements to her chase such as a lower lullaby would be nice as well.
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Not the case with the passive condemned suggestion, and with the other two she doesn't have to get a down, just a hit, which can be done very easily. There's really no reason to argue against projection cooldown coming back unless you're not tping to the right location, which is a skill issue
-4 -
The point of passive condemned is to discourage survivors from hoarding tapes and that they don‘t hold onto them until the last moment, but it would require a longer build up than mechwarrior suggests like 50-60 seconds for one stack. Everything below would be overtuned.
Her projection should never ever get a cooldown. They can bring in one for condemned if they feel like it, but not the teleport. Secondly there are people who use her tp to find people, which has nothing to with a skill issue.
-1 -
So generally what you're gonna be looking at it .5 on global condemn and .75 on directs, rather than now for the 1 and 1.
Just to check, reading your response here, you may have misunderstood that a direct teleport applies 0.75 from the direct condemn AND the 0.5 from the global condemn. That's 0.5 and 1.25 instead of the 1 and 1. The 0.75 direct condemn is in addition to the 0.5 from the global condemn.
Regarding the TVs spawns on maps being janky, I am with you there, though I don't think it'd be too big a problem with this set of changes and I would personally attribute this issue (and the chests overriding TVs spawns issue) as a separate discussion regarding her power.
Apologies if I've incorrectly interpreted your response here though... just need clarification on this point in your last post so we know what we're debating 😅
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That quite literally is a skill issue, you should have to know where survivors are before projecting via gamesense, no projection cooldown allows her to just mindlessly tp over the map to find someone without having to do any thinking
-2 -
Playing like that is completely fine. She already has a cooldown for each Tv! She doesn‘t need two and survivors already can hard counter her. Complaining about that part of her power is a skill issue.
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They should remove the cooldown for each tv and replace it with a projection cooldown, the cooldown for each tv serves no purpose since if you need to teleport again so soon then it will be to a different tv. Also no, complaining that a killer can mindlessly spam their power without thinking is not a skill issue just because you say it is
-2
