http://dbd.game/killswitch
Let’s Talk About the Upcoming Anti-Slug / Anti-Camp / Anti-Tunnel Changes
While it’s great to see QoL updates aiming to make the game smoother — especially for survivors — we can’t ignore the deeper balance implications here.
Yes, these anti-slugging, anti-tunneling, and anti-camping mechanics will strengthen survivor gameplay overall. That’s undeniable. But it’s also important to ask: why do killer players rely on these tactics in the first place?
It’s often a response to game design pressure. Many killers feel they have no other viable options due to gen speeds, strong survivor perks, and increasingly nerfed slowdown tools.
If these changes are implemented without addressing the underlying reasons killers tunnel, slug, or camp, then the imbalance only shifts further.
Killers need compensation in other areas, whether it’s basekit improvements, better chase mechanics, or meaningful perk reworks, Enhancing survivor quality of life is great, but it must go hand in hand with addressing the core struggles killers face.
Seeing nothing directly aimed at improving killer experience in this roadmap is genuinely concerning. It feels like we're addressing one side’s frustrations while leaving the other to keep struggling in silence.
Comments
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They say they will buff killers elsewhere but with how glacial balancing is in this game it's gonna' take at least 6+ months to see anything that will of course end up being hit or miss.
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Killers need compensation in other areas, whether it’s basekit improvements, better chase mechanics, or meaningful perk reworks,
They've been doing exactly this in literally every patch for three years now.
The past year has had individual killer buffs, base kit, add-on reworks, and usually 2-3 killers per chapter or so.
Maps have been reworked, tile spawn logic changed, pallets significantly weakened, entire realms reworked, newer maps are smaller and have tons of dead zones.
Bloodlust had been buffed, anti gen tap completely eliminated gen tapping, hooks respawn. Healing was gutted specifically by request so people could play hit and run.
Just about every single class of killer perk has been buffed. (The one exception to this is literally the only reason for your post, and I'll finish with that)
They spent 3 years deliberately altering the game balance from basically every direction to increase kill rates, and successfully. They've even gotten it to the point where, overall, SWF and solo are escaping at roughly the same abysmally low rate.
So, the only reason for this post to even exist is the only thing they haven't given killers back: gen kick meta levels of regression. It's all some people want is complete control of the game. They've given a metric ton of information, chase, and utility. And all people want is infinite time (or currently, 10 minutes of holding the game hostage).
So no. Not every change in the game requires some kind of compensation buff.
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Not sure they need to give compensation automatically.
We know why people tunnel. It is an effective tactic. That's the need, the need to win. It's easy, it's effective and it gets people what they want, why wouldn't they do it?
If individual buffs are needed, we can discuss it then. Trying to pre-buff Killers when we don't even know what the changes ARE is silly
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It's the same thing with the implementation of Go-Next before addressing why Survivors disconnect in the first place. The devs are primarily interested in addressing the symptom while rarely touching the problem.
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Killers rely on those mechanics because when playing against good teams, the tools survivors have are too opressive unless you are playing an S tier killer. Half the meta perks have endurance on them + DS + insane haste perks like Lithe which is being seen more and more now, insta heals, ect. Survivors are actually completly spoiled rotten for choice on perks. Meanwhile killer has very limited ability to actually slow the game down now. Against really ghood teams of survivors the killer has basically no choice but to sit there and tunnel someone out because there is just no way to build pressure fast enough otherwise.
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This is also completely true. THe devs are rarely interested in going after the source of a problem and instead just treat the symptoms. Take the rise in slugging for instance. Many killer players warned of numerous changes the devs made that would encourage that and they refused to listen. They are killing slugging but not addressing the underlying problem that got us there to begin with.
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When we got the 3 gen change there was a buff to kicks and elimination of gen tapping. So a small group of killers had a particular playstyle nerfed and every other killer benefited.
If these changes even approach the 3 gen change killers will be fine. We don't even know what the anti-tunnel/anti-slug will be.
And as @AmpersandUnderscore mentions, killers get buffed all the time. Some patches are more survivor sided, some are more killer sided.
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A pathetic buff… Id rather have gen kicks be unlimited and not have the 10% initial regression to this disgusting state they are in currently. That one change gutted most gen kick perks. There are more than just gen regression gen kick perks. You wanna talk about a change that completly screwed perk build diversity? That would be such a change.
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They've been doing exactly this in literally every patch for three years now.
The past year has had individual killer buffs, base kit, add-on reworks, and usually 2-3 killers per chapter or so.
literally small tweaks to killer basekit, individual small buffs that eventually move killers 1-tier up at best.
One single buff they do to a survivor overshadowed multiple killer buffs. All killer strats got further indirectly nerfed by introduction of new survivor basekit tweaks and perks, while the most oppressive survivor strat, early gen splitting is still literally untouched.
Not to mention that none of the actual survivor meta perks were touched either.
Maps have been reworked, tile spawn logic changed, pallets significantly weakened, entire realms reworked, newer maps are smaller and have tons of dead zones.
and still, huge majority of maps are still survivor sided, Autohaven maps are bugged and they spawn more pallets than they are supposed to, while the only truly problematic killer sided maps are Haddonfield, Vecna's map and somewhat Midwich.
Bloodlust had been buffed, anti gen tap completely eliminated gen tapping, hooks respawn. Healing was gutted specifically by request so people could play hit and run.
Bloodlust has been buffed...and then you take a look at changes to survivor MS, latest being release of Orella's perk Duty of Care. Despite hooks respawning, they are in the worst state they have ever been, where spreading hooks heavily benefits survivors and tunneling and camping are punished harder than ever.
Healing gutted? It's literally still absolutely strong. Resurgence exists, Syringes exist and you can literally heal fast with just Surgical Suture on a medkit. Healing is still in a very strong spot, while anti-healing status effects have all been indirectly further nerfed by Vigil buff (Sloppy hardcore because it went to limited Haemorrage and Mangled).
Just about every single class of killer perk has been buffed. (The one exception to this is literally the only reason for your post, and I'll finish with that)
literally majority of killer meta perks were hit with multiple nerf hammers, you are talking about buffs to perks that are used more in gimmicky builds than in actual high level gameplay.
They spent 3 years deliberately altering the game balance from basically every direction to increase kill rates, and successfully. They've even gotten it to the point where, overall, SWF and solo are escaping at roughly the same abysmally low rate.
i don't see a mention of "matchmaking issue" anywhere. Game literally looks balanced exclusively because of almost nonexistent matchmaking, community that gives up 2 mins into matches and players that last 20s in chases. Like let's sit down and think about how killrates got up on the first place.
So, the only reason for this post to even exist is the only thing they haven't given killers back: gen kick meta levels of regression. It's all some people want is complete control of the game. They've given a metric ton of information, chase, and utility. And all people want is infinite time (or currently, 10 minutes of holding the game hostage).
they have literally gutted slowdown meta to the point where only meta gen related perks are Corrupt, DMS, Grim Embrace and Eruption. We are in an era where survivors have hard control of the match.
So no. Not every change in the game requires some kind of compensation buff.
really? Forcing hooks, and most important spreading them is hardcore punished, tunneling and camping are pretty much dead, slugging is not possible against organized teams, like please tell me where are incentives for actually "playing fair" by the rulebooks?
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You are correct, but good luck getting the survivor mains here to see that. You will be mass downvoted, just like me.
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Yea pretty much what @AmpersandUnderscore says here
Specific killer adjustments have been happening all year, so it can continue to happen as well as addressing tunneling/camping/slugging.
People for some reason think that both these cant be truePost edited by ChuckingWong on10 -
Definitely gen speeds and map balance will have to tuned along the line with these changes killers have been adjust for a time now but currently Artist, Knight and Pyramid head are falling below 50% and need to be helped
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I can 100% guarantee you if the changes drop the killer kill rate average from 60% even by a hair, the role will get major buffs in a couple of months max.
This is not even an us vs them let's farm some rage thing I'm making up on the spot, you have to be very disconnected from reality if you really think the devs are going to make big changes to something they've been considering strategies for so long without a follow-up if things swing too heavily to the other side.
The only two possible outcomes are: None of those strats are neccessary and their removal doesn't actually affect the kill rate negatively that much or at all, or they are and any balancing issues that arise from their removal will be polished in a follow-up patch soon after release (although "soon" for BHVR might be three months after, I will admit).
Regardless of the outcome, this is something that had to be done long ago. No game should reward people for doing nothing, even less so a multiplayer game.
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No killer buffs...
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Look at their track record
Please, do look at their track record. Because as @AmpersandUnderscore has already mentioned, their track record as of late has been pretty solid. Lots of killers have received buffs, maps have been nerfed, mechanics reworked and shuffled around, all in pursuit of a better experience for killers.
And then consider that the issues that are being targeted with the mentioned patch have been in the game since its inception.
That's NINE YEARS.
With the only break being the shake-up in 6.1.
Pointing at BHVR and accusing them of being slow and ineffective when the forum killers are out in full force pre-whining about changes that are NINE YEARS LATE.
for some killers, they’re their only viable option to keep up with
survivor perksandgen speeds.You mean, for some killer players.
And gen speeds are really massively over-complained about. Made dumber by the fact that gens have only gotten slower over time, but the complaints about them have ramped up. You know what the problem is with gen speeds?
They will always be the problem.
Because if more than one survivor walks out of those exit gates, the one thing you can say for certain about that match, no matter what, is that the gens got done faster than what the killer could keep up with. Even in that abysmal chess merchant match that nearly ran the 60 minute time limit, you can still argue that the gen speed was too high for the killer to compete with.
Ultimately, this complaint is indistinguishable from a general 'there's a possibility I might lose' argument, and it will be rehashed and played out again and again, no matter how low escape rates get.
And it will most certainly be trotted out every single time the devs dare take the spotlight off the killer mains for a patch.
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If you're going to nerf tunneling, slugging, and camping — tools that killers use when they have no other way to regain control
The most important part of this entire post is that they've said nothing, literally nothing about the details of any mechanics in phase 2.
The entirety of this original post, and across these forums for that matter, is nothing but doom posting about a potential feature that might cause people to have to stand 11m from a hook 7 months from now. The horror.
Because that's the level of mechanic that they implement when they do stuff like this. AFC doesn't stop camping, is barely a speed bump and completely trivial to play around. That's the level of mechanic we're likely to get. But people start complaining early, and often, and the devs will not only put out something weak to PTB, but probably it'll get nerfed by request before it hits live also.
But here's the proof of my statement here, from your first post on this thread:
You can’t nerf slowdown into the ground, leave gen speeds untouched, load the survivor side with second-chance perks, and then act surprised when killers tunnel someone out early.
It's about slowdown. It's always about slowdown. It always has been.
And this is the exact same mentality and comment we've seen for years now: killers tunnel/camp/slug because of:
Gen speeds, dead hard, DS, circle of healing, maps too big, pallets too strong, "infinites", prove thyself, reassurance, scavenger, background player, BNP, MfT, distortion, adrenaline, "SWF is so much stronger than solo".
Every single one of those has been directly nerfed or addressed, and every single time, people move the goal post to the "next major problem".
And, ironically, basically any activity that would involve survivors not doing gens has also been nerfed by request. Mainly this is interactions with the killer, boons, and soon to be body blocking. But this only leaves survivors with "do gens" or "stand afk" as potential gameplay options.
Killers excessively camp, tunnel, and with because it's easy to execute and difficult to counter. That's it, that's the only real reason.
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How wildly biased do you have to be to not notice that they're not only adding "anti hiding" and "anti body blocking" to the game, those features are included in phase 1.
So the killer buffs are coming first, and about 6-7 months ahead of anything for survivors in phase 2.
ETA: MMR update should be beneficial for everyone, as is anti cheat. The qol updates are universal as well.
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There's a lot of bs to unpack here, but briefly:
it’s that survivors are getting more tools than they need
Those tools are typically implemented very conservatively, then nerfed by request before going live, and there are so many because the problems still persist because the tools do nothing meaningful to change anything.
Reassurance, AFC, base kit BT, all exist to combat camping in some form. The only thing you and I seen to agree on is that, in your words, "It’s like giving someone a paper towel to stop a flood." Yes, it's effectively useless and doesn't come into play almost ever, and camping as a whole is alive and well.
So either survivors actually need tools to meaningfully combat camping, or the tools they have need to be effective to the task.
The second the killer gets any edge, the devs backpedal, and suddenly we’re left with nothing to slow down survivors
No. Simply wrong.
The devs realized with the gen kick and 3 gen metas that giving killers slowdown was entirely the wrong approach. Killers will always focus on gen speeds.
What the devs did instead, isn't nothing, they focused on chase times. All of those things I mentioned, most importantly bloodlust, map reworks, pallet and tile changes, buffing the daylights out of chase and information perks... All of that is to reduce chase times.
And it worked, chase times were about 60 seconds total, for the whole match (per survivor). So chasing survivors, which is the killer's role, has been progressively made much simpler and easier.
But, they do a poor job of relaxing that to the community, and apparently some people need it spelled out that the "global nerfing of all pallets and tiles" even happened.
Killers aren't playing with the generally goal of chasing, which is the primary problem with camping and tunneling. Standing at a hook doing nothing should be a waste of time in most situations. It's not gameplay, and it's not creating gameplay.
Yet despite all of those changes to information, and chase, and even utility, killers are still wandering the map blindly for the first 60 seconds or so of the game and then acting shocked Pikachu that survivors dared to touch gens instead of also doing nothing meaningful at the start of the game.
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They base everything on statistics and this game has crazy things like The Trapper making a sudden comeback because someone falls into one of his traps. Not kidding, even though he is considered one of the weakest killers, my killrate with him must be ridiculously high.
If a M1 killer suddenly doesn't keep up with this changes, what can they do? Make Ghosface move at 4.8 speed so he can compete with Blight? Some killers are limited by design.
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A buff or nerf does not mean that there should be any compensation. This is not how balancing works. Balancing is not nerfing a thing on one side and then nerfing something else on the other side. Balancing is also not to nerf something on one side and then buff something else on that same side.
IF BHVR thinks after those things that Killer is in a rough spot, THEN they will most likely think about Buffs for Killer or Nerfs for Survivor. But asking for compensation is just not the right thing. Let alone that BHVR said themselves that they did a lot for Killer over the past years and it is time to give something to Survivors. Which is just true, Survivors got the short end of the stick for quite some time. Not saying that all the Buffs to Killer or all the Nerfs to Survivor were not justified. But you cannot really ignore that one side was favored more over the past few years.
And honestly - unless we dont know what those things are they will implement, nobody should really ask for compensations. If we look at the AFC-Feature, it might be possible that Anti-Tunneling or Anti-Slugging does almost nothing.
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It's about slowdown. It's always about slowdown. It always has been.
because nothing else fundamentally does anything to improve overall match standing unless you have at least 2 slowdowns. Not to mention that Corrupt is literally a must for you if you don't want survivors to have such a no effort easy early gen splitting, which is the most oppressive survivor strategy that leaves 0 room for killer mistakes when playing stronger killers and basically makes playing lower tier-mid tier killers impossible.
And this is the exact same mentality and comment we've seen for years now: killers tunnel/camp/slug because of:
Gen speeds, dead hard, DS, circle of healing, maps too big, pallets too strong, "infinites", prove thyself, reassurance, scavenger, background player, BNP, MfT, distortion, adrenaline, "SWF is so much stronger than solo".
Every single one of those has been directly nerfed or addressed, and every single time, people move the goal post to the "next major problem".
Resurgence is still insanely strong, Reassurance too.
Babysitter, an already meta perk was buffed even further?
OTR is still at 80s and literally has Distortion and Iron Will implemented inside it's kit too.
SB is still absolutely easy to use and enormously strong.
Not to mention how many other meta perks for survs are, but i mentioned some very problematic ones.
Overall, hooks are a power tool for survivors that (seems like it) only good players know how to get advantage of because i'm seeing way too many players who think greeding on hook is bad and also players who don't know how to force down away from 3-gen or other important tiles. Ohh, should we also mention how average survivor doesn't even know strength of taking hits and pallet saves.
And, ironically, basically any activity that would involve survivors not doing gens has also been nerfed by request. Mainly this is interactions with the killer, boons, and soon to be body blocking. But this only leaves survivors with "do gens" or "stand afk" as potential gameplay options.
boons are still decent, bodyblocking is still insanely strong and literally deserves to be looked upon.
And this "do gens or stand afk" as only options? Maybe, just maybe we should encourage players to last more than 20s in chases for matches to be actually fun for them, or? It's funny how we are arguably having survivor role at it's strongest after infinites were nerfed, yet we complain about survivors somehow having only those 2 options when playing.
Killers excessively camp, tunnel, and with because it's easy to execute and difficult to counter. That's it, that's the only real reason.
"easy to execute and difficult to counter" bro...
Is lasting more than 20s in chase, team greeding you on hook and using anti-tunnels really that difficult as a tunneling counter?
Is forcing a down away from zones where killer can actually benefit from camping the hook, survivors greeding tou on hook and forcing gens really that difficult?
In terms of slugging, you could literally never have a massive benefit out of slugging and it was literally always a situational and very risky move against an actually skilled team.
2+ years of people refusing to learn counters to these strats are literally the only reason why tunneling, camping and slugging are rampant. Survivors are literally choosing to absolutely not punish killer for using these strats at all. Can yall once, just once sit down and think "well, maybe we actually need to get better"?
People were literally playing way better against tunnelers when not even basekit BT was added, and now when we have the strongest anti-tunneling tools in the game, tunneling is overpowered"?
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And let’s talk about this "NINE YEARS" thing. Sure, the game has been around for a while, but that doesn’t mean it’s okay for these issues to persist, especially when certain problems like overpowered survivor perks or the feeling of imbalance between killers and survivors have been so widely discussed. Just because something’s been in the game for years doesn’t mean it’s good or that it shouldn’t be addressed. The devs have had ample time to make changes and improve things, and if we’re still here discussing the same complaints after almost a decade, that’s a sign something’s been
missed.Yes. And now we've got -this- thread complaining about the fact that the thing that has been missed is finally getting addressed.
So why are you joining in on the complaint, even throwing out a 'BHVR takes too long to deal with issues' in a thread that wants to hold off on fixing a nine year old issue because modern day killers have to actually try in order to win sometimes.
It’s about making the experience fun and fair for both sides.
Actually, no. It hasn't been. Not for a long time.
BHVR has outright stated that they have NO Intention of making the game fair for both sides. They are, in fact, not balancing the game. They are slanting it in the killers' favour. This is by intent.
For the longest time, survivors had to deal with BHVR's 60-40 routine denying them fair matches, and 'their fun is not my responsibility' killer mains denying them fun matches. Now BHVR is stepping up to fix the latter (Again, after nine years), and killers are out here going 'well, the game has to be made even more unfair to compensate'.
if we’re going to acknowledge that gen speeds are often an issue
You misunderstand. The point isn't that gen speeds are the issue. It's that they're the scapegoat. ANY loss suffered by a killer will always be because 'gens went too fast'. You can bump gens up to 200 seconds each, but the moment a killer loses a match: 'gens too fast'.
So unless the killrate hits a literal 100%, the gens will always be 'too fast'.
And how do we know this?
Gen speeds have gone down, complaints about gen speeds have gone up.
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we don’t even know what these changes are going to be yet. Ideally, they would improve the survivor experience without negatively impacting kill rates, which are right around the target 40% (except of course high level SWF). If we can get that the happen, then great, everyone is happy. If kill rates drop, we will likely see some killer buffs. BHVR has buffed killers in the last when kill rates got too low.
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You wanna talk about a change that completly screwed perk build diversity?I mean I wasn't talking about perk build diversity, or even perks, so I guess no.
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"if people dare to not hold the same opinion as me, they must be X main"
Never change DBD Forums, never change.
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Brother did NOT play when Killer actually sucked.
Killers are fine and will continue to be fine. They do not NEED to tunnel. It is simply the easiest method to win. Why would anyone ignore that?
We already know it has nothihg to do with gen speeds or "gutted" regression lol, that's just a joke at this point.
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At least we have a point of agreement that the tools survivors have are at best ineffective.
The devs nerfed slowdown perks because survivors kept crying about them. What did we get in exchange? A focus on chases, but who cares when survivors are still flying through gens? Chasing is great and all, but if you don’t have any meaningful way to slow down objectives, what’s the point? You can get a chase, but that doesn’t stop the gen from flying and the survivors from getting away. Killers don’t have the same tools to slow down the game, and when we do get some, they’re nerfed or ineffective before they even go live.
This is the huge disconnect. Chase. Is. The. Slowdown.
Modern DbD killers so not understand map pressure whatsoever. People cannot get out of their heads that standing near a hook to camp or wait to tunnel isn't pressure on more than just one survivor. The rest of the survivor team is going whatever they want when the killer does nothing to stop them. And camping and tunneling are literally the killer doing nothing but waiting.
If you leave the hook, and go chase a survivor off of a gen that's slowdown. If you have one person on hook, one in chase, and one going for rescue/recovery, then at most one person is on gens.
If you instead camp, then one person is on hook, one person is rescuing (maybe), and two are on gens. And it's possible, if the person on hook can communicate or show (kindred) that the killer is camping, that all 3 others are on gens.
So chasing people off of gens and leaving the hook is minimum 50% less gen speed, possibly as much 67% less. That's map pressure.
And I know people understand this on some level, because tunneling is the goal of getting someone out fast enough that having one on hook, one in chase, and one rescue/recovering almost completely stops gen progress. It's not that this doesn't work, it's just not as easy as camping or tunneling.
Because the other reason people camp and tunnel is that they're relying on the survivor team panicking and falling apart when it happens. Which, coincidentally, like most strategies, stops working when you hit a level where everyone on the team has the game knowledge to know what to do.
Chase is the reason for the game. Flat out. It's the primary PVP dynamic of the PVP game. This is like asking what's the point of shooting in CoD or CS.
Downplaying chase is the reason most people struggle.
Yes, you do have the tools. You're simply not using them, dismissing all of the help the devs are giving you, and throwing up your hands because you want and demand regression. Survivors are the objective and the opponent for the killer, not gens.
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Killers have been power crept to 60% Kill Rates. Even in Anniversary stream Eric said all attention goes to Killer so time for Survivor to get something.
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yeah that was a slap to the face for the killer community as small tweaks to things that should be basekit for killers (even though its half of the add on strength) and niche perks getting small buffs is apparently devs giving their whole attention to killer :/
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I'm jumping into the middle of the convo, but I think the following is missing the point @AmpersandUnderscore is making
Let’s get one thing straight: therealproblem isn’t that killers are too aggressive or unfair, it’s thatsurvivors are getting more tools than they need. They’ve got perks that let them heal across the map in seconds, escape from almost any chase, and slam out gens at lightning speed with little to no risk.With how perks have been treated, survivors have no reason to do anything but gens. Set up a circle of healing so survivors can self heal? Not just nerfed, eliminated. Go for a flashbang save or ftp+buckle up, nerfed on the former and, again, on the latter out right destroyed. Run a build to make yourself very hard to hook, which also really limited the area of the map you could pressure, nerfed.
Even things like MFT and Dead Hard that allowed survivors to more willingly engage in chase have been nerfed.
So what can survivors do? Well, you can load up on anti-tunnel, or gen perks, you can run an exhaustion perk to shift-w, and you run a chase build if your really confident in your looping ability. But in terms of gameplay, you stay on gens.
There are some strong, situational perks, but they all revolve around 'just do gens'. Some of the game changes above should have happened, but being you're original post talked about why killers play the way they do, we need to look at the reason survivors play the way they do. There isn't a reason any more to get off the gen because all of the strong (and sometimes just more interesting) options have been destroyed.
Meanwhile, survivor-side changes roll out fast, broad, and with full dev blogs explaining the logic.As a few others have said, calling these fast is crazy given how long some of these changes have taken. Even with things like anti-slugging and go next, BHVR has been saying they've been coming for years now.
As for explaining, partly this is due to interacting with the killer complaints. 3 gen change, AFC, we got lots of complaints (many outright absurd) about how these were going to be abused. BHVR's explanation is frequently trying to get killers to see what is happening (which is usually 'this isn't a big change at all, just don't do this one specific thing').
Post edited by crogers271 on5 -
You got Yellow Mori basekit and now will get Purple Shroud basekit, so two Offerings basekit. Map Offerings nerfed to unstackable 20% on top of Sacrificial Ward nerfed down to Brown. Eyrie getting a second Map which I have no idea is a good or bad thing. Badham variants gone. Maps and Keys buffed which means less Toolbox and Medkits.
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those are small placebo buffs they do nothing for actual gameplay (bar the shroud basekit will have min effect on gameplay i grant that) or help to ease the pressure or frustration playing killer which are currently gen effiency being to high and SWF and now we have to worry about maps and keys
but iam seeing good posts that articulate exactly what killers are going through and are clearer then what i can write for a post for example:
This post covers exacatly whats killers are dealing with and the request to get devs to actually looking to killers frustrations and fair issues so we can move it to a more healthier game for all sides
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2+ years of people refusing to learn counters to these strats are literally the only reason why tunneling, camping and slugging are rampant. Survivors are literally choosing to absolutely not punish killer for using these strats at all. Can yall once, just once sit down and think "well, maybe we actually need to get better"?
I don't know why you keep insisting that people refuse to get better. It is not for a lack of effort or desire. One could watch Mr Tatorhead's looping guides on YouTube, and they're very well-made and informative. But each video focuses on a specific map, and those videos range from three to seven hours, perhaps even longer. Most people simply don't have the time to sit through all those videos, let alone actually practice in those maps, especially when they're at the mercy of RNG.
If one has to spend all those hours watching looping guides and then spend even more hours practicing, "getting better" is like chasing rainbows. And that's not even factoring in all the changes that BHVR makes to any given map just when the Survivor is finally starting to get the hang of it.
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I literally beg you and every other person who thinks killer role is in a fine spot rn or too strong, start arranging custom matches with people who actually know how to play the game,There's a huge flaw in your argument.
What if I arrange a custom match and play survivor and get destroyed, then arrange a custom match and play killer and lose, but it's moderately competitive?
The flaw here is presuming that these are the players who are on the same skill level as you. I have no problem with the idea that there are players who are better at the game then me. You keep talking about when same skills match up, the killer is losing out, well maybe the survivors are just better.
Minor flaws:
1: You can't ever simulate a pub in a custom. The very nature of going into a custom match means the killer will likely select from a smaller pool of killers, but in pubs survivors have to be prepared for anything. This is one of the killers main advantages.
2: The game has various levels of sweaty. Most people don't engage in the extremes, though it is far easier to do on the killer side. Just limiting the scope of the game to your preferred specific scenario means you aren't talking about the game or the killer role.
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"Many killers feel" … thats the part where this starts to go in the wrong direction. We couldnt care less about how people feel to do something as long as this isnt reasonable necessary. And all those strategies in the way theyre used right now arent necessary at all. The game right now caters by far too much to killer players that are bad at playing the characters. Bad players that want to be as powerful as the best players. But this shouldnt be possible at all.
The underlying reason swhy people "feel" to do this are the following:
- It is due to a lack of skill and a lack of will to get good. Those are just lazy people that use the easiest way that requires no or the least necessary skill. You cant do anything to resolve this. It lies in the nature of those players.
- It is due to a lack of fairness. People want to win no matter the methods. Everything goes and if its the cheapest way, they use it. Nothing to do here too.
- People who are overly compettive and are as sweaty as possible. They abuse everything that grants them a safe route for wins. Nothing to do here too.
Killers do no need any general improvements if toise mechanics are being implemented. Thats a fundamentally false conclusion. Let those people get good or let them lose as they deserve.
7 -
Its hard to discuss anything in good faith in your direction as completely false statements just come from you. With public published data telling you, you are wrong.
literally small tweaks to killer basekit, individual small buffs that eventually move killers 1-tier up at best.•(2024) Hillybilly recieved the largest buff we have ever seen. Moving him from d-tierto the top 5 spots in the game.
•(2025) Freddy recieved a large buff that has skyrocketed him to the number 1 kill rate slot across high MMR published by stats up from.... freddy tier, he had is own tier.
•(2024) Dredge recieved a large buff to his entire basekit. Moving him from D tier to B.Not to mention that none of the actual survivor meta perks were touched either.
(2024) Adrenaline nerfed.
(2024) DS nerfed
(2023) DH nerfed
(2023) Prove nerfedLike what "meta perk" do you want to be "touched" I think is the better question(s)?
and still, huge majority of maps are still survivor sided, Autohaven maps are bugged and they spawn more pallets than they are supposed to, while the only truly problematic killer sided maps are Haddonfield, Vecna's map and somewhat Midwich.
No.
Someone made a post recently which is about as true as it gets. Midwhich is 100% killer sided and you would be disingenuous to suggest otherwise. A trapper can close this map down, thats how killer sided this map is.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/444344/map-balance-with-tier-listBloodlust has been buffed...and then you take a look at changes to survivor MS, latest being release of Orella's perk Duty of Care.
Survivor MS hasnt changed.
Duty of care is a perk with conditions and limitations. Same with sprint burst, lithe, and overcome.Healing gutted? It's literally still absolutely strong. Resurgence exists, Syringes exist and you can literally heal fast with just Surgical Suture on a medkit. Healing is still in a very strong spot, while anti-healing status effects have all been indirectly further nerfed by Vigil buff (Sloppy hardcore because it went to limited Haemorrage and Mangled).
Healing basekit has been gutted since 2023-2024. You keep flipping back and forth what you have a problem with. Perks, basekit, meta/non-meta. You cant just change the conditions of your argument every second and expect people to take you seriously.
literally majority of killer meta perks were hit with multiple nerf hammers, you are talking about buffs to perks that are used more in gimmicky builds
Pain Res nerfed (still the most picked perk).
Pop (still the second most picked regress perk).
Grim Embrace receieved an extremely large buffSo not only are you just wrong. But you dont want buffs to non-meta perks?
You seem non appreciative at all on any of the perk buffs this last year.i don't see a mention of "matchmaking issue" anywhere. Game literally looks balanced exclusively because of almost nonexistent matchmaking, community that gives up 2 mins into matches and players that last 20s in chases. Like let's sit down and think about how killrates got up on the first place.
What?
Its balanced because people give up constantly? You think the game is balanced 3v1 or less? You think the game is balanced for 20s chases or less?
Lets sit down and rethink what we type before we hit the "Post comment" feature at the bottom of the screen.
they have literally gutted slowdown meta to the point where only meta gen related perks are Corrupt, DMS, Grim Embrace and Eruption. We are in an era where survivors have hard control of the match.
At this point you just are making things up in your head.
Pain res
Pop
SurgeAll ahead of every perk you just listed in the meta.
Ruin is ahead of eruption
This is public data.
really? Forcing hooks, and most important spreading them is hardcore punished, tunneling and camping are pretty much dead, slugging is not possible against organized teams, like please tell me where are incentives for actually "playing fair" by the rulebooks?
Your post is a mess. Like you are contradicting yourself. How is grim meta you say above, but then spreading hooks is punished?
If this was true then Grim wouldnt be even taken. Grim has a condition you know, do you play killer? This is an honest question.
Devour hope is meta as well.All of this is public, published, data. I am not sure this long thread of whatever you came up with in your head, that also contradicts itself, is strengthening your arguments at all.
11 -
I agree with you overall here, but I do feel the need to point out, healing basekit hasn't changed since Spirit's release. The only healing nerfs we've seen were to medkits and Circle of Healing specifically.
Otherwise, fair points all around.
-1 -
And I am happy with it too, healing was WAY too strong before its rework on medkits and COH. It was out of control.
1 -
Don't forget stealth build nerf= distortion. I already said all you said in various posts but lately am a point that topics like these I skip over or let others talk lol.
Killers will always think the game is survivor sided and only survivors care for meanwhile I wonder why am still having long killer queues and when will I ever see bonus incentives for for killer.
1 -
I just had a match where i did not intent to slug but they basically ran into my knife and got themselves killed. everyone on the gorund everyone DC and i am forced to fight it out with bots or i lose all progress? While these survivors get a free card?
-2 -
Kind of equally silly to throw all killers in the deep end for a few weeks and tell players to figure out which need changes
Once we get the list of anti x y z changes it will be pretty obvious who needs a bit of paint to not instantly drown and can then be adjusted from there instead of just being told "wait it out"
0 -
Which was my point.
We don't even know what the changes are yet
4 -
What exactly are they doing about slug, camp and tunnel? I cannot locate the new mechanic info anywhere.
3 -
Its hard to discuss anything in good faith in your direction as completely false statements just come from you. With public published data telling you, you are wrong
false statements come from actually high skill matches rather than raw pubs with nonexistent matchmaking? Ok dude.
•(2024) Hillybilly recieved the largest buff we have ever seen. Moving him from d-tierto the top 5 spots in the game.
•(2025) Freddy recieved a large buff that has skyrocketed him to the number 1 kill rate slot across high MMR published by stats up from.... freddy tier, he had is own tier.
•(2024) Dredge recieved a large buff to his entire basekit. Moving him from D tier to B.
Billy was literally an S-tier long ago, after whoch he suffered a lot to finish in the low C-tier and then finally go into S-tier anymore. He was unbalanced for some time after his rework and now he literally is in a fine spot.
In terms of Freddy, he was literally a killer with the biggest killrate before his buff too, telling you how bad average survivor actually is when they suffer so much against ordinary M1 killer that is almost powerless.
DREDGE B TIER????? Are you kidding me now? Like really? Dredge is still one of the worst killers in the game that is extremely powercrept and his power is so map dependant that he barely works on only few of maps.
(2024) Adrenaline nerfed.
(2024) DS nerfed
(2023) DH nerfed
(2023) Prove nerfed
Like what "meta perk" do you want to be "touched" I think is the better question(s)?
Adrenaline received quite a small nerf.
DS literally received a completely unnecessary buff in PTB that literally destroyed low tier killers while doing nothing against Nurse, Billy and Blight (but that's what players wanted because ppl are not aware of what makes DS less powerful against Blight, Nurse and Billy) after which it received a buff that was the final version in live, which means perk literally has been buffed.
DH was literally one of the most oppressive perks to ever exist in game when it was purely based on exhaustion, now it's still one of the strongest perks, but is actually a fair one.
Prove literally received small nerfs + BPs removal, nothing serious taking in mind it's a gen perk.
And now you have StB, Reassurance and Resurgence still in the extremely strong position without any mention of at least BHVR looking into them.
No.
Someone made a post recently which is about as true as it gets. Midwhich is 100% killer sided and you would be disingenuous to suggest otherwise. A trapper can close this map down, thats how killer sided this map is.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/444344/map-balance-with-tier-list
you tried to counter my argument by proving part of my statement where i said Midwich is killer sided? What?
Survivor MS hasnt changed.
Duty of care is a perk with conditions and limitations. Same with sprint burst, lithe, and overcome.
are you even remotely aware of how powerful perks like SB and Lithe are? And since when is Duty of Care "perk with limitations" when it stomps every low-mid tier killer and even affects Nurse? And Babysitter which was literally a meta perk even at 10% haste being buffed for no reason?
Healing basekit has been gutted since 2023-2024. You keep flipping back and forth what you have a problem with. Perks, basekit, meta/non-meta. You cant just change the conditions of your argument every second and expect people to take you seriously.
since when does something being nerfed mean it's not powerful anymore? Especially in case of healing in general, which is still in extremely strong position?
Pain Res nerfed (still the most picked perk).
Pop (still the second most picked regress perk).
Grim Embrace receieved an extremely large buff
you are determining perk power over pickrate in pubs?
Because by your logic, Deliverance and StB are very weak perks due to low pickrate (meanwhile they are top 2 strongest survivor perks at high skill levels)
Pain Res is not S-tier anymore aftere receiving com.pletely unnecessary nerf from 20% to 15% with 4 tokens.
In terms of Pop, please take mathematical comparison between it and other regression perks and notice how it's literally only somewhat worth it if you manage to constantly get value of it on 90%+ gens.
I already told Grim Embrace is now meta, one of the only 4 meta killer perks atm.
What?
Its balanced because people give up constantly? You think the game is balanced 3v1 or less? You think the game is balanced for 20s chases or less?
Lets sit down and rethink what we type before we hit the "Post comment" feature at the bottom of the screen.
please tell me what else happens in pubs where it's already known how rampant give up epidemic is, how chases last 20s across all killers (when norm should be 40-60s against S-tiers and 90s against other killers) and how it's artificially inflating killrates? And think about it before you hit the "post comment" again.
At this point you just are making things up in your head.
Pain res
Pop
Surge
All ahead of every perk you just listed in the meta.
Ruin is ahead of eruption
This is public data.
you mentioned Surge which is a terrible slowdown on majority of killers. You mentioned Pop which is terrible unless you manage to consistently kick 90%+ gens. You mentioned Ruin which basically only works on killers like Blight that can apply consistent pressure and you severely underestimated Eruption, which is literally top 4 perk in terms of strength. Your "public data" is based on pub matches where majority of matches are played by mid players at best.
Your post is a mess. Like you are contradicting yourself. How is grim meta you say above, but then spreading hooks is punished?
If this was true then Grim wouldnt be even taken. Grim has a condition you know, do you play killer? This is an honest question.
Devour hope is meta as well.
All of this is public, published, data. I am not sure this long thread of whatever you came up with in your head, that also contradicts itself, is strengthening your arguments at all.
Ohh so wait, Grim being meta now suddenly means spreading hooks is magically not punished? Great logic, because this logic would only work if Grim is like a extremely overpowered perk with power even higher than old Eruption.
DEVOUR META????? Devour was literally never meta, what are you talking about?
And again, you are speaking of public data based on same public matches where worst killers have the highest killrates, Nurse seems like underpowered killer and Skull Merchant is not one of the worst killers in the game atm.
-11 -
I already said all you said in various posts but lately am a point that topics like these I skip over or let others talk lol.The true trial in DbD is the forums. We come and make arguments, valiantly fighting to make a difference, and then the next day we repeat the same process.
Then the next.
And the next.
And somewhere in BHVR the real Entity feeds on our efforts.
-2 -
I think they a projecting tbh. They said you were making points in bad faith. All of the things you said are absolutly true. They didnt have a solid rebuttal so they are trying to paint you as being unreasonable. Its a common tactic, and a sign that replying to them in any capacity is a waste of time. Notice how all of the counters they made were insane, or just flat out wrong, and took you all of a few sentences to tear apart? They arent trying to be fair and honest.
You can't win an argument with certain kinds of people.-5 -
You might get less down votes if you were less rude to people. Almost every time you comment on game balance, you can't help but insult half the playerbase. Then you complain that people don't seem to like you. It's a self-inflicted injury.
12 -
There isn't any information yet. The only thing they've said officially is that something called "anti camp", "anti slug", and "anti tunnel" is planned on the roadmap for phase 2, which is likely around December or later.
The only other official information is that the community manager said on the forums that if the phase 2 changes have any impact on kill rates they will work to fix that.
Everything else is speculation at this point, or both speculation and doom posting.
8 -
false statements come from actually high skill matches rather than raw pubs with nonexistent matchmaking? Ok dude.
I mean both of them are false for you. In tournaments every single one of your statements backfires when we look at perk loadout, and then pub you may as well not have typed anything.
For everyones reference on actual high level play, heres video(s) on what perks are used in high level play.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vh_iUFYYokI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa02NajVQq8
Notice none of what Narko is saying is true at all.Billy was literally an S-tier long ago, after whoch he suffered a lot to finish in the low C-tier and then finally go into S-tier anymore. He was unbalanced for some time after his rework and now he literally is in a fine spot.
How far back are we going with your comments? Because first it was within the last year, and now we are talking about billy before the introduction of overheat in 2020?
I think I will just stop here as this post of yours illustrates you are off on some tangent that is so divorced from reality, that continuing conversation seems to be a waste of time.You make up meta in your own mind, ignore actual data we have published to us, and constantly contradict your own talking points. And honestly just make things up that are published saying otherwise.
Good luck!Post edited by ChuckingWong on8 -
Honestly I don't really know what other strategies to use when tunneling isn't allowed, camping isn't allowed, gen defense isn't allowed, and even slugging isn't allowed?
Guess simply running around aimlessly and hitting anything you see is the only thing killers are allowed now? I'm not opposed to the idea as that's what I have most fun with, but it'd require massive amount of buffs to actually work for vast majority of killers which is sub B tier
-5
