http://dbd.game/killswitch
Let’s Talk About the Upcoming Anti-Slug / Anti-Camp / Anti-Tunnel Changes
Comments
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they are not on a generator; they are already a health state down fresh off the hook, and haven’t touched a generator if it procs. What should they be doing instead? Just going down right off the hook? Explain to me why this is a problem so I can understand. 20-30 seconds is not some grand run time.
I’m trying to be so polite when I say this, chase someone else; you are getting baited by what boils down to a meme, especially stacked.9 -
If your argument is "Not against S tiers" then you need to rethink your position because there are all of 2 S tier killers in the game, and the gulf in power between them and even the killers at the top of A tier is immense.
-6 -
The problem is there ARE still Killers, the weaker half of the roster especially, that might play dirtier because they simply can't keep up very well against the dominant chase-heavy Survivor meta. They will need serious buffs if their pick rates or kill rates begin to fall from this.
The result, of course, of such a chase heavy meta when these "dirty tricks" are removed is to either force them to run stacked chase perks, buff the Killers, change generator perks and items for Survivors somehow (which might not be entirely fair), or allow Survivors who can beat these Killers when they play fair to only ever face those higher tier Killers and nobody else for the rest of their days. I don't think any of those options sound entirely fun for everyone except for, maybe, buffing the Killers themselves.
That doesn't mean don't implement these changes, they are needed because tunnelling is quite common now. But it's also a symptom of a broader issue - we need to actually ask why it's being done in the first place and why Killers think it's necessary, and that's just not an answer that is so cut and dry. 9/10 times, it seems to be due to wanting to win, an MMR mismatch where these tricks seem necessary, or because of a Killer's inability to pressure another way and get results due to a weaker toolkit for their power. None of those are inherently toxic or intended to cause any frustration to Survivors, but they often do cause frustration anyway, and for good reason - the Survivor feels they don't get to play! And yet, for the Killer, they may feel if they don't do these on some Killers, they won't get very far. Not every Killer can inherently pressure the map hard enough with mobility or built in slowdown.
It's easy to blame Killers for this. It's easy to blame Survivors for genrushing causing this, but neither are truly why. The real reason is that BHVR has for too long let this be a thing by not adjusting and making it harder while ALSO giving Killers something to make them not feel it is needed for whatever reason.
I know it's easy to blame Killers. They're the game's antagonists, after all. But I beg of you, please see some sympathy for the other side here. Not every Killer player likes or even wants to play a super strong S or A tier. Not everyone is choosing Nurse, Blight, Billy, and Kaneki every time. For example, I'm out here maining Dredge, Ghostface, Pig, and Nemesis (when he's not killswitched) right now - none of them are A tiers, and three of them can struggle really hard in M1 chase against Survivors that are strong loopers.0 -
3 second DS was inconsequential unless the Killer was either A) The weakest Killer in the game or B) Not good at the game.
It was a joke and anyone who pretends otherwise isn't even hiding their bias or attempt to gaslight others.
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Basekit BT + 10 seconds of endurance off hook, and now babysitter is at 15% haste for 30 seconds. Those 2 things alone ensure the killer can basically never catch someone right off the hook anymore unless they are a fool and decide to run back into the killer or go next. DS is also used as a get out of jail free card often when the survivors decide to weaponize OTR and bodyblock the killer or play other stupid games. In these situations DS which is supposed to be a defensive perk is also being weaponized because it prevents the killer for actually punishing survivors who do that and then go down as a result. And thats not even talking about how DS just flat out punishes killers indiscriminately for winning chase too quickly against another survivor.
As I have said before, it literally does not matter that all the survivors are not on gens when you are playing against coordinated teams because they can consistently slow the killer down more than enough to make up for it.-3 -
Was some rough times having DS that weak.
They are now off on basekit bt from unhook lol.
May as well bring back hook grabs while we are at it. WIth the things they are going off on "get out of jail free"Post edited by Rizzo on5 -
Nomade, buddy this is so easy to play around that you can have most people feed you the match on a silver platter because this does not work at higher game play. Killers will eat you for breakfast, lunch, and dinner trying to set this up because they see right through it. You can literally bait them right back. There’s a reason people say this doesn’t get in their way, they’re not gaslighting you. I loathe getting paired with people who play like this because it can only go 1 of 2 ways. Either they’re about to bully that noob, or we’re all about to suffer greatly because the killer knows how to play around it and they just forked over the match being funny. You can’t be serious when you say a survivor not on a gen doesn’t mean anything, especially two. If you have two people proc’d and you know it, why are you not baiting or going for a third?
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So what you're asking @ChuckingWong for is:
-3 gens to pop that are spread out
-not getting a hook until that time
-the killer not having mobility (so no increased speed, no teleport)
-the killer not having Pain Res
-no slugging, camping, or tunneling
-not a situation where the Trapper has a setup around the shack
I'm going to take a guess the NOED/end game build is off the table, as are things like Tombstone Myers or a Singularity who has put his cameras around map. I also suspect that a killer who has spread pressure and has multiple survivors injured doesn't count. You've taken out a substantial portion of the killer roster.
It sounds like the killer had a really bad early game. We've taken out the killers who might have been doing setup. Being the killer isn't running gen regression, I have to ask what they are running that led to the chase being this long. Also, this chase had to have happened in a small area or the killer has such 'tunnel' vision that he didn't notice the other survivors as he was running by their gens, meaning the killer almost certainly made some substantial mistakes.
So let's make some points that should be obvious
1: The killer has a bad early game. You're saying you want to see how people play from here, well I want to see what happened that the killer got into this position. When things go wrong for one side, their chance of victory should decrease. I don't expect if the killer gets three downs in the first two minutes for survivors to still have an even shot, I just want them to have some type of shot and the game to still be enjoyable.
2: Trying to find a game like this would take quite some time. Not only would the person taking this challenge need to play from your selected range of killers, they would have to underplay the beginning and the survivors would have to spread out. Any game where the killer got an earlier down or the survivors didn't adequately spread out wouldn't count.
3: How strictly would the no tunnel, no camp, no slug be? People act like BHVR, or even survivors, are saying if someone is left on the ground for 10 seconds the killer auto loses. That's not what people are talking about and BHVR will likely be pretty minimal in their changes, as we've seen with AFC and 3 genning.
4: Let's say someone did record a whole bunch of games and they got 10 to fit your criteria. How many would they have to win? Like if they won 3, drew 1, and lost 6, I'd think that sounds like the killer has amazing come back potential given how bad the start was.
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Just stop playing killer. Then when queue times are 30+ minutes maybe they will fix the core issues. I still have people hiding 40+ minutes every match refusing to give me 4k. When are they going to change crows, afking , locker hopping? They just don't care about killer at all.
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To be absolutely so fair to you friend, that does sound frustrating, but consider: NOBODY owes you the 4k. A 3k is also a win. Just take the 3k if they want to sweat this hard.
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You realize the forums have a "block people" function right? You can use it if someone is bothering you to the point you're making posts like this, you don't HAVE to be rude. Just block them. It's free.
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Yea it quickly turns into a lot of conditions that need to be met it seems to satisfy whatever parameters are, continuously going up it seems. All the while having absolute 0 examples in the other direction. I can only provide so much, the onus to provide counter examples has to come at some point. And, unsurprisingly, nothing backs up what they were saying.
I just went off their initial post saying that "unless you have movement and gen regress give up you stand no chance"
I post examples from me and from other sources as well that directly contradicts it.
They can either acknowledge and follow actual data, or disprove it with actual data. Really is that simple.
Whatever head math or perfect bias scenario they come up with, means nothing though.8 -
We keep hearing that the survivor queue time is going to explode, but it doesn't happen.
Also the hiding out is still on their phase 1 road map that runs through June. We still haven't gotten any of these survivor changes to impact gameplay and we might get the killer ones first.
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Anti hiding, survivors default to starting grouped up (so physically cannot be spread out), anti body block, map offering rework are all in phase 1.
The anti tunnel, anti camp, and anti slug in the title of this thread is all in phase 2, and we have no details for yet. Phase 2 btw, is around 6 months away still.
So they've put the changes that benefit the killer first, and you're still crying. Literally nothing will satisfy some people in this community.
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3s DS was good against every killer other than Billy, Blight and Nurse. Honestly if they just found a way for DS to be 3s while disabling killer's power for like 5-7s after stun animation finished, it would be much better way to make DS decent against S-tiers too.
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if you are actually so eager to use official data as an argument, why is average chase time of individual survivor in pubs 60s per whole match aka. 20s per chase when average should be 60s per single chase at least? You have 40s of time worth of 1 survivor per gen (80 per two, 120 per 3) literally thrown into water, and then there is still argument that it's balance in question, and not survivor skill when we know wasting killer's time is the most valuable thing survivor should do. I absolutely can't want to hear argumentation on average survivor getting 2-tapped by an M1 killer and then somehow blaming it on game balance.
And why do worst killers in the game like Sadako have some of the highest killrates?
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if you are actually so eager to use official data as an argument, why is average chase time of individual survivor in pubs 60s per whole match
Source?
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the 3 second stun was useless. You made no distance and it didn’t make killers think twice about tunneling. The perk was so bad that killers just ignored it. Perk is supposed to be for anti tunneling and it didn’t do that. Quit lying to yourself
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“You do realize that there are situations where the correct decision is to eat it right?”
Every situation because the perk sucked. Period
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Not sure how you figure, since you get about 2 seconds worth of distance.
That's basically nothing and the perk was functionally dead for 99% of players.
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So this is from the July 2024 stream, 1:00 all MMR, 1:06 high MMR.
Except there are a couple of problems with how people view it because I think BHVR is using average to be the 'mean' and not the median (some of the following problems would apply to that as well)
First, the chase timer itself. What people think of as 'in chase' is different than the game marking chase. Shift w away doesn't start a chase. Killers like Wraith can be 'chasing' the survivor without chase starting.
Second, if the survivors stomp the killer, or the killer stomps the survivors, both scenarios would have a very low chase time. Example would be if the killer tunnels a target and then camps the hook, but survivors stay on gens (i.e. old Cannibal games). Even if the first chase was a great 2:00 minutes and then no other chases, well divided between the 4 survivors that's an average chase time of 30 seconds.
Any game that is 'short' is going to have a low chase time.
So you have killers that get fast downs, lowering chase timers, situations where the chase timer doesn't start even if people feel they are in chase, and then games where survivors dominate that also lowers the chase timer. And some of those scenarios are going to have survivors with a chase time of 0 or just a few seconds, and extreme scenarios like that dramatically lower the time.
I suspect the overall time is not that different in comp, but starting/stopping a stopwatch every time the chase marker goes/stops would be pretty annoying (I know because before I started this post I tried that).
Hopefully this doesn't become the new math thread topic that confuses what can be derived from an average number across a large sample size.
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I honestly don't feel like Workshop Grease does much for Pig because I use Ambush primarily as a mindgame at certain loops. It can land hits against less experienced survivors, or against people who try to mindgame once I've taken a pallet.
But I find that it's very effective at forcing experienced survivors out of weak loops. That lets me frequently get a hit if the survivor abandons the loop when I crouch and fake roar (since they often won't have time to get to their next resource). If they don't abandon on the first go, we get a match of rock-paper-scissors, giving me an okay chance of hitting with it. Some loops also aren't conducive to Ambush, but I often play those like an m1 killer with no antiloop at all, trying to force a survivor into a loop where I can push them into an easier hit.
I guess I do agree that at certain loops, a survivor who picks ideal positioning can avoid it in situations where it feels like it should hit. I'd agree that a very slight buff to the Ambush duration would probably be healthy :D
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DbdLeague statistics winter circuit
Dark Lord 0:01:04 Blight 0:01:11 Wraith 0:01:17 Lich 0:01:28 Nurse 0:01:30 Spirit 0:01:31 Singularity 0:01:32 Cenobite 0:01:35 Hillbilly 0:01:43 Oni 0:01:56 Unknown 0:01:58 Houndmaster 0:02:01 Plague 0:02:12 Mastermind 0:02:17
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Is that not competitive and not pubs?
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Can I ask what your approach is to finding hiding survivors? I ask because I've seen a few forum members say this kind of thing, but I've never personally had survivors successfully hide for such a long time before.
The most effective way for them to hide is to get in lockers and occasionally get out to juggle their items or work on a chest so they don't get crows. But that means that as I search around rocks and in lockers, the survivors will eventually have to stop hiding when I search their location. They can also attempt to hide behind line of sight blockers and try to stay out of view as I make my way around objects, but then they're potentially visible and will often have to leave scratch marks to avoid the killer.
My experience is that if I take a thorough approach to searching areas, a pair of survivors shouldn't be able to hide for more than a handful of minutes. I don't know if they've gone 5 minutes or 10 minutes on me, but I'm pretty sure I've never had survivors successfully hide for 20 minutes or more.
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yes, that's competitive, actual high skill matches between high skill survivors and high skill killers.
In pubs you usually face mid skill level killers at best and people still last 20s per chase, which is catastrophic
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no one cares about comp. I bet you don’t even play that
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This is all very true and needs to happen. If it really is the case that C and D tiers must resort to these tactics, and are struggling without them, the Devs can buff them later so they aren't languishing. But they have to prevent middling and strong Killers from abusing them first before they do something to help the weaker ones. They can't improve the game without removing things that ruin it and are acting as roadblocks to improvement, y'all.
Even playing as some of the weakest Killers in my Roster, I don't need to camp, tunnel, or slug super hard from the word go. I don't need to tunnel someone out first thing to win as Pig, I don't need to hard camp a hook as Ghostface, and I don't need to slug people in the basement as Trapper. Nobody ever needs to do this. Now, pressuring with light cases of these? Perhaps. Leaving a down for a bit, chasing a weak link, or protecting a contested hook to get the unhooker? Sure. But not hardcore tunnels, camps, and slugs. Doing that loses you games as Killers like these.
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Why would we care about comp when pubs is literally all that matters? " the top .00001% players that you will never encounter are really good" fantastic, most of us knew that, most of us realize that has zero bearing on the actual game.
The person specified pubs as well, and you just ignored that to make a point.
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Have a link? Because I'm curious how they derived their stats.
Hillbilly stood out to me because I remembered him doing pretty well. I found a total of six instances where Hilbilly was played in the winter circuit (so 12 trials). I've listed them all below in case I missed any.
Here are all the times it took to get to the first down:
Qualifiers - Rapture vs Archon
2:12
1:11
Qualifiers - Jinx vs Void
0:35
1:57
Round 1 - Severance vs Jinx
1:28
0:07
Quarter Finals - Eternal vs Sinners
2:23
0:19
Lower Bracket - Jinx vs Sinners - at this point of the season DbDLeague started putting in the first down time
1:09
0:55
TOP 4 - Calamity vs Sinners
0:28
0:40That averages out to a minute and seven seconds for the first down. Not the first chase even, because that doesn't trigger until the chase icon triggers, and the first down when everyone is healthy, spread around the map, and has every pallet available should be the hardest to get
And the times go down, not up, as we get to top team vs top team.
But unless DBDLeague is tracking chases the same way as BHVR, which seems close to impossible, you're comparing unalike things.
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Yea their response to me is completely off topic and some pivot to something else entirely.
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i played scrims because i didn't think i'm yet ready to actually play for one of teams.
As for the fact that you care or not, it was never about that, it was about the excuses yall make when losing even to killers that are easiest to play against :)
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why wouldn't we in something as trivial as chases. You'd expect someone not to be able to hold a 60s chase against Blight like pros can do, but being able to hold only 20s chases on average across all killers?
DbDLeague discord server, dbdl statistics channel, they are pulling data from latest tournaments played.
please tell me what exactly is off topic when you refused to properly respond to any argument i gave, especially about average chase length and how weakest killers have some of the highest killrates
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I’m not the one that sits there and acts like it’s 2017 dbd like you do
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DbDLeague discord server, dbdl statistics channel, they are pulling data from latest tournaments played.How are they pulling the data?
I went into the server and looked at the data. The numbers you cite are from the qualifier series, not the full tournament. I decided to look at the Mastermind, because he was the most extreme.
There were four trials in the in the qualifiers, here are the first down times.
Mastermind
Qualifiers - Origin vs China
3:29
1:28
Qualifiers - Ascent vs Silence
3:31
1:11That roughly comes out the average chase time cited, though a huge disparity between the teams.
However, in two of those 'first chases', multiple survivors where chased as the killer switched targets. In one of them the killer even switched to a third target after getting two infected and injured.
Far from being equal teams (which you've been discussing), there was a pretty clear mismatch. The first was a 4k with 2 gens left vs 8 hooks, and the second 3 hooks vs another 4k with 2 gens remaining.
Given the next two stats listed on that page are first downs, and how similar the average time here is to what is cited, I suspect this is the average first down time per killer, not the average chase.
Anyway, I messaged the individual who posted the stats. Should I hear back I'll post his methodology.
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As someone who has been exactly where you are, sometimes you just gotta leap in.
I jumped headfirst into it with the Community Cups and it was a wonderful experience for me.
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I'd expect that there is a large difference between the average player and someone who has taken the game seriously enough to become a competitive player, yes.
A forty plus second difference in chase time isn't as extreme as you might think. Especially considering the likely hour difference.
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@NarkoTri1er
None of what you said to me has anything to do with what was originally said. So you are moving the goalpost and shifting to something else entirely.
Linking everyone to chase times from the winter circuit doesn't mean anything for any part of my conversation with the other user.
For reference you responded to me disproving this:"If you don't have Pain Resonance or a killer with high mobility, that game is problably already over. Those saying that base regression is enough, I would like to see is this situations, turning their words into evidence."
I respond showing actual match results from me
Person shifted to "oh no I need video"
I respond showing actual match footage from othersPost edited by ChuckingWong on7 -
SWF should be in the game, they should just have limits since the game wasn't designed around the Survs having so much info. BHVR indeed won't touch them though, but their game will continue to suffer and no amount of other changes will actually do anything positive. Oh well though
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This is true and idk if its just me but I been seen an uprise of ruin being used again. Yet killers say how useless it is.
Can't tell you how some matches lately have been longer than expected worst if solo q cause ruin is in play and a strong Killer like ghoul is in play.
It may not work as good for some killer's as not all killer's work well certain perks but it does. Surge is good since it always work from a down as well, not sure though if it procs work if ruin is in play though? 🤔
-1 -
They rely on it because it's reliable. That's literally the only reason. We can dress it up as 'need to pressure' or whatever other reason we want to, but there always seems to be a reason and the truth is that it's too easy to revert to.
I have been part of the DBD community for years now, both here and elsewhere, and the first major argument over this, that I saw, arose due to original Dead Hard. Killers said they had to camp/tunnel because the perk was too unhealthy. The perk was nerfed and it carried on. Then it was gens/maps/toolboxes/medkits/Circle of Healing. All these things were nerfed and it carried on. Then is was 4 man coordinated SWFs but you go into modes like Chaos shuffle where you cannot plan your builds etc and it's rife. I think it's time we need to admit that there'll always be a reason to play like this regardless of the state of the game and that's why BHVR are acting on it.
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It is easy to know who you speak of but I wont call their name. I Had them blocked along with another for 3 to 4 years ago as they are the most biggest bias babies ever.
A survivor can even start pre running as soon as they hear their terror radius and they qq about it lmao. I guess we are to stand still and be in their line of sight for them to get a quick hit on us.
I think I vs one of their fan girl yesterday cause it was another streamer like myself and they was playing a pyramid head.
They was busy chasing a Leon clearly good at looping and me and my 2 man ( 3 man swf) was ofc doing the gens.
I decide at last gens since now they a wanted to tunnel Leon out so I took a down for free and they hook me instead, last gen pop and ofc it was the face camp.
Sadly hero Leon came in pulls me off anf die ( when I got hit into stage 2 ) as one of my 2 man is still new and unsure on how team saves work lmao so we got a 3s. End game chat said streamer said quickly yall gen rush that is why I attempt to camp and tunnel immediately leaves chat.
I kindly went in there and said maybe dont waste too much time chasing one person and gens will not go by so fast and left after they like ill ban you for that lol.
I kindly left anyway without a another word. As killer streamers 100x fold hate survivor streamers anyway like said person I know your speaking about
Yet if we ran head on and stun build they say oh bully squads who wont stay on gens. Idk can't win either way.
Post edited by buggybug on1 -
From 700 anti tunnel perks to 2mil anti tunnel perks. Can you kindly provide some of those, I would love to try them or see how they work?
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For @NarkoTri1er @Firellius and anyone else interested in the stats
The poster of the stats for DBDLeague (Imitatia) did get back to me - "Hey there, im always referring to thr average first down time, as this is the easiest one to track. All times are added and then divided by the number of games"
As I suspected, it's not the same as the number BHVR is posting, because
A: It would be unreasonably hard to track manually
B: If those numbers were the average the norm for DBDLeague would be games with a very small number of hooks (probably like 2 to 4), which just isn't true.
Those stats are also from the qualifiers, and as I posted from the numbers above for Mastermind, an average like that can achieved from a combination of high and low times.
Basically though, this number (first down time) is radically different than what BHVR is posting (average total chase time per trial).
Not that I think he'll see it, but my appreciation to anyone with DBDLeague for taking their time to answer my question.
Post edited by crogers271 on4 -
yeah I can only think of 3 anti tunneling perks. These people exaggerate
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I can think of six if you're counting altruistic anti-tunnel too.
Decisive Strike, Off The Record, Blood Rush for personal anti-tunnel, then Borrowed Time, Shoulder The Burden, Babysitter for altruistic. Maybe I'm missing a few though.
Where people often go wrong here imo is that they count things you can also use while being tunnelled, like Dead Hard or Resurgence, but those aren't really anti-tunnel so much as they are also useful in that context as well as many others.
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fair enough I agree
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Shockingly the only 2 I sometimes see is off the record and ds. I dont ever think I seen a single blood rush use even after its rework, shoulder the same thing only seen it when it was apparent people only was going for adept taurie. Don't see baby sitter or borrow time either which is shocking considering how strong baby sitter can be. The 3.0 overated duty of care is another perk I have not seen at all yesterday in my 8 hour stream.
You know the obvious its too op on swf. Hence why I call duty 3.0 because like blood rush and shoulder the burden while potentially strong there is still way better perks.
I know couldn't help but still ask for giggles lol.
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DS was supposed to be used in conjunction with a nearby vault/loop. Running out into an open area with nothing, yes, would absolutely have DS not do much at all to help you outside of buying your team a little time, but that's using the DS incorrectly. You're supposed to go down near a vault or pallet, so once you stun the killer, you're good to go at another loop to run. Nurse could of course entirely disregard this - I still feel nurse is fundamentally bad design since she can pretty much cheat every balance attempt in the game.
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If you have to have something nearby when you go down, doesn't that make it fundamentally bad at its job?
On top of that by no means being a guarantee since you easily could've been hooked in a deadzone, it also strongly implies you, the player, need to be capable of looping well enough to make that worth it… at which point you'd have less use for DS to begin with and the people who do desperately need it can't use it.
Three second DS really was not a good perk at all, in my opinion. It was only somewhat useful for the people who need it the least, at best.
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