http://dbd.game/killswitch
Excuse me, but a surrender is a defeat and it should feel like a defeat, not like a draw
Hello, I actually only play survivor, but I had just played some killerrounds and I just had the following situation as a killer in a match.
2 survivors were lying on the ground after I had knocked them down one after the other. Another one ran towards me and I knocked him down as well. I picked him up and tried to carry him to the hook. But the last survivor ran straight into my arms and was tebaggin me because, he wanted to be hit by me too, while I carried the other survivor on. I've had that a few times now.
If you down the last survivor, all other survivors use instantly the surrender feature in the hopes, that the game will be scored as a draw. Tell me, is this change already live?
I understand if all 4 players are intentionally knocked down and on the ground and use the surrender feature, but in my example the survivors created a situation just to not lose and not get a mmr deduction. That's not fair and shouldn't be that way. Also, a surrender should feel like a defeat and not a draw.
What is your opinion on this?
Comments
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They don't do it to make the game a draw. They do it because the game is clearly over and they want to move on to their next match.
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BHVR confused everyone by saying it would be a draw and never clarifying what they meant by that.
No one seems to have any idea what they mean by match outcome. But survivors aren't getting some free MMR escape (if they were, BHVR's kill rates and MMR adjustments would have tanked so extremely that even they would have taken action).
As Nazzzak said, its just to end the game.
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I can't say that I care about it too much outside of the last survivor alive abandoning when they're downed. It's fine to keep the function there but I don't really understand why it's counted as a "draw" for MMR purposes. Like, you're the last person alive and you got downed. You didn't escape, that's a loss and it WOULD be if you let the match play out naturally until the end. Except if you abandon and it's a draw. It just doesn't really make sense to me to a degree, the way wins, losses and draws are treated in general in regard to abandonment. It's kind of all over the place and nonsensical.
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I don't know about a surrender always being considered defeat, but I do think it's weird that if the KILLER does it it's a defeat but the SURVIVOR does it it's a draw. Are they trying to force high skill Survivors who draw away from losing MMR on purpose and into upper MMRs when they win to stop SWFs from smurfing or something? If so I don't think this is the way to do it.
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Yes, some of BHVR's statements actually confuse you more than they should. Do I understand correctly that when players surrender and the surrender option is used, this is also counted as a defeat for mmr purposes in the background ?
Maybe a dev or mod perhaps confirm this - in plain text please? I don't have an IQ like Albert Einstein.
Just to be sure, so that new posts aren't constantly being opened and causing confusion.
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Do I understand correctly that when players surrender and the surrender option is used, this is also counted as a defeat for mmr purposes in the background ?To the best of my knowledge, no one knows.
When the initial 'clarification' post came out there were pleas that it was just making the situation was more confusing. The genesis of the idea was that killers were using their abandon option for wins and BHVR wanted to show that was wrong, but in doing so they opened up a whole other door on the survivor side.
Sadly I highly doubt they will clarify it at this point, though I hope I'm wrong, and yes it probably will create a lot of posts. BHVR's stance has always been to avoid the words win/loss with the rare exception when they discuss the MMR system, which they generally also don't want players thinking about. I feel that they realize they never should have put those words out and now they are falling back to this is something we don't specify.
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Yes, I understand what you mean
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Yeah it definitely feels a tie in my opinion
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Funny that anyone would be concerned about mmr and abandoning. There's no evidence of mmr being in the game and they've flat put refused to acknowledge stats for players amd have literally said online that they will never show this supposed mmr rating they claim runs in the background. I don't personally believe mmr exists in DBD for these reasons. So to worry about abandoning affecting mmr is ludicrous.
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The devs explained this about is well as they explain anything else. Poorly. I'm not surprised there is so much confusion. When the source you are getting the information from is the landfill, always expect a crappy time.
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I think this, especially the "we don't call stuff win or lose" policy, proves more than ever that the community is wrong that:
- The game is one you're intended to win,
- Wins matter,
- Winning is a 3-4k/escape through gate because you gain MMR,
- We should judge wins and losses in this game by MMR.
We can all stop being upset about how our games turn out now.
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But dataminers have confirmed that MMR exists?
It’s just that matchmaking is not that strict with the MMR and shorter Lobby queue times are prefered over accurate MMR matching.
though worryung about the outdoor of any Match agfecting your MMR is ridiculous as it’s Not the actual Games winning condition and is only meant to make matches not too one-sided(which it also fails to do)..0 -
I say take it as an win for yourself cause you're good enough to get them to abandon.
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BHVR im sure has a pretty good reason for it, literally just wait and see what they do before you make a huge deal out of something that could be nothing.
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I always do that anyway
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Иногда, когда разработчики вводят новые правила, они не в полной мере учитывают долгосрочные последствия. Даже если намерения могут быть хорошими, недавние изменения в механике «Сдаться» сломали финал для убийц — особенно когда осталось только двое выживших.
В последнем патче теперь это обычная стратегия для последних двух выживших — намеренно прекратить ремонт генераторов и просто спрятаться, затормозив игру. Их цель — сделать убийцу достаточно расстроенным, чтобы он нажал «Сдаться». Когда это происходит, выжившие сбегают и сохраняют все свои матч-пойнты — не починив ни одного генератора.
Эта механика теперь используется как преднамеренная стратегия победы , и она создает совершенно несправедливую ситуацию для убийц.
Это нужно срочно исправить. Выжившие не должны вознаграждаться за избегание игрового процесса и затягивание матча.3 -
This video here explains the problem with the feature and how the last player always makes it a loss for the killer. In essence, the last player to abandon always is a loss for the killer, so in the long run, this manipulates the MMR system in a bad way. It is very possible that due to the widespread usage of the abandon feature to get out of games the second it pops up, survivors have unwittingly manipulated the MMR value of a very high number of killer players. A lot of killer players have noticed the longest general wait times they ever experienced and this was generally seen as a waning interest in players to queue up as survivors, but it could be, that one of the MMR brakets is right now chocke full of basically all the killer players, thus by trying to finding everyone a sutiable survivor, the higher level survivors only open up after an extended time of not finding enough players to fill up the lower-level lobby, which translates to the 7-10min queue times.
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thanks for the Video from Hens.
I also watched it and yes, this is totally unacceptable…. BHVR NEEDS TO FIX THIS !
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So May 1st was a busy day for BHVR news, but I also happened to be free on that day and was keeping an eye on Youtube. After the post (Update to Haste and Hindered) came out, Scott Jund was the first of the CC who I saw a video from, then Hens. Both of these came out before Mandy issued her 'clarification' of the 'clarification' post (Hens might have been around the same time, but given the time it takes to put a video together it was filmed before that).
So Hens' video, like Scott's, are both, reasonably, based on that initial post and, again reasonably, presuming it impacts MMR. But Hens video didn't have any more knowledge at that point than anyone else had when we were discussing it.
it could be, that one of the MMR brakets is right now chocke full of basically all the killer players, thus by trying to finding everyone a sutiable survivor, the higher level survivors only open up after an extended time of not finding enough players to fill up the lower-level lobby, which translates to the 7-10min queue timesUnlikely to be a cause, even if the abandons were impacting MMR. This would cause survivors to less frequently lose MMR, and killers to less frequently gain MMR. This would cause a surplus of survivors at higher MMR, but the place lots of people are reporting massive killer queues is high MMR (Otz had a video about being able to take a walk in the time of a queue though I believe it was partly tongue in cheek).
It's a mess of a situation that they've made worse, but the CCs don't seem to have any more insight into it then the rest of us.
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Did Mandy actually comment in this thread? I didn't see her post?
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Thanks for the insight, it is indeed a pretty confusing and convoluted situation, and with how little information we have, this is definitely no hill that I will die on. But part of me wants this to be true and to explain the really noticable queue times :P As @SharonPancakes said so, what exactly are the latest comments from Mandy we got on the while issue?
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Not this thread, the Update to Haste and Hindered thread where the initial clarification of the abandon system was done.
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Unless I have missed something, no one has said anything more on this issue since May 1st despite multiple posts and CC videos. The closest has been a comment from Mandy saying the situation about survivors standing at the exit gate is different.
Mods have been active in the threads, but it seems to be an issue they aren't commenting on. Maybe they're waiting until they role out whatever they have for the MMR update to just discuss that all together (pure guess on my part).
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So the match result should just be out the window? What's even the point of playing? "Just press this button and draw every time, so that people can conveniently go next." It's a horrible idea.
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If that is actually happening, and i doubt it is, then that means all Killers would currently be at low level MMR and all Survivors would currently be at a higher level MMR. So either all Killer players aren't as good as they think, something's broken, or all Survivors just turbo-buffed their MMR doing this so they don't lose any MMR, meaning the weaker Survivors suffer while the stronger Survivors still only ever face high tier Blights, Nurses, Spirits, Weskers, and Billys. If this WERE happening, eventually the queues for the high level boosted Survs would create a situation where they too wait forever for players, and they too end up seeing the same players over and over again while the rest of us get these weird baby Survivors.
I don't think that's what happened here, since the game only looks at the Survivors 1v1 to gauge, NOT the teal of Survs as a whole versus a Killer. If you win three and the last one abandons, then you still gain three you just lose one.Post edited by LockerLurk on-6 -
Absolutely agree — but I don’t think the survivors are really to blame here.
After all, the moment the killer downs the last survivor, the game essentially says: “Go ahead, move on to your next match. If you leave now, it won’t even count as a loss.” Who would hesitate to press this handy, dev-endorsed button that wipes away every inconvenient consequence?
Since this feature was introduced, survivors have been abandoning the match and heading to the next one early in about 95% of my games. These days, playing as a killer just feels like being a janitor — cleaning up after bots.Ultimately, the real issue is the half-baked “Abandon” button—sloppily tossed in as a band-aid fix, rather than actually solving the real problem.
Instead of tackling slugging with any well-thought-out approach, they went with a lazy patch to kill complaints. It’s painfully clear they didn’t consider how this would degrade the gameplay experience or throw the MMR system into chaos.
And what we’re left with is this:
Survivors who lose get a free shortcut to the next match, leaving the killer to clown around with a bot.
Killers who win get nothing but trash time and cleanup duty.
A gameplay experience that feels unfair, hollow, and utterly unsatisfying.This issue is quietly rotting the game from the inside out. The devs have been showing a lack of foresight in their balance decisions for years — but this?This goes far beyond anything I imagined they’d actually put into the game.
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The fact it doesn't even affect MMR is really strange, what's the purpose of "draw" then…
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That is what quite a few people were asking them about. Given BHVR famously avoids using the terms win/draw/loss unless it applies to MMR, and even then they use it sparingly, when they said 'draw', concluding it was talking about MMR was the absolutely obvious thing they were referring to.
Which felt very, very strange. As a person who has advocated for the abandon system for just these scenarios, I've never thought it should be anything other than a loss. We didn't need the chart we got, you abandon as a survivor, same exact thing as if you died in that instant.
I thought for a bit that maybe they meant draw as 'no other penalty', except they list the killer leaving after 10 minutes as a 'loss', and there is no other other penalty there as well.
Really, I'm just baffled at how we are in the state we are in. Either the abandon system has a horribly flawed design feature, or the communication of that feature has caused undue confusion.
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Take my upvote, Sir, to fight the tide of people who don't want to see the wisdom in your words. I must sit down and think a bit about the ramification on the MMR system, IF this is how the forced draw instead of loss manipulates it, but I guess the situation is more complicated then I though, no way how you cut it ^_-
Whatever the case, the unfair flagging of an abandoned match as a draw, even if its a clear loss, can't be good for an MMR system that is entirely build on escapes vs kills, no matter if that is responsible for the 7min queue times or not.
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100% this. Abandoning a match should always count as a loss, just as if you had died, the only thing that it should preserve is your Emblems and bloodpoints, ie the stuff that you would loose if you just DCed.
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I currently appear to, like on Reddit before I left, have a squad of people following me around this site downvoting me because they think it's funny I guess. I have said nothing but truths about this game people don't want to hear. Why?
Well, probably because I said Ghostface a) isn't actually D tier and weak, b) is actually a decent support Killer in 2v8. I even gave evidence.
This sort of thing is why I believe, and have asked to mods multiple times, that we need to remove the downvote feature. It's not useful for discussion, it doesn't add to conversations, and 95% of the time it's used to bully or downvote-brigade. Just like Reddit. Thankfully here there's no actual penalty and it doesn't hide your responses, unlike on Reddit.-4 -
I agree with the core point… surrendering should count as a loss. But to be fair, the same must apply to killers. If a killer slugs all survivors and refuses to hook even the remaining bots, they should not be rewarded with a win just for dragging out the inevitable.
If survivors must earn their escape, then killers should be required to secure each hook. Abandoning a match… even when bots are all that's left → is a choice to end the game prematurely. That should be a loss, not an escape hatch for those who get bored once the lobby has no emotions left to exploit.
Make it fair. For both sides.
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Well it looks like they've updated it for the abandons to be a loss. That's good, though it makes it confusing what the last version was actually doing.
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ya good Decision by BHVR 👍️
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Think they will still do it because lower mmr just means they can now bully low level killers.
-1 -
I agree it should be fair, but the difference is that when everyone's slugged like that it's the Killer that caused it and it would reasonably be a loss anyway because Survs can't do much in that situation. But when everyone left in the round is a bot, often that isn't the Killer's fault. Why should they be punished for abandoning a round that is basically just a customs with bots? I queue up to play with humans, not bots. Why punish me for the Survivors deciding they don't want to play with me anymore, even and especially when I did nothing to deserve that except start winning? Makes no sense.
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If killers want a win, they should earn it.. just like survivors have to. Leaving early when everyone is slugged shouldn't auto-grant victory. Survivors are expected to power through until the end; killers should be held to the same standard.
And if playing against bots is so unappealing, perhaps it's worth reflecting on how unpleasant it is for survivors to be left slugged for minutes just to wrap up a match faster. Fair goes both ways → if you want the win, hook/mori them.
Lastly, it's ironic to demand fairness only when bots appear, while ignoring how often killers disconnect early if their first chase goes bad and gens fly. Survivors don’t get a bot replacement… they get booted with no warning. That’s not fairness, that’s convenience masking entitlement.
This game needs symmetrical rules… not exceptions based on who’s holding the power role. Both sides deserve balanced treatment.
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This video is inaccurate - the announcement on what constitutes a draw or a loss with the Surrender system does not affect MMR:
I regret to inform you this was a rare Hens L
The announcement of how each type of Surrender is considered a Draw or a Loss seems to be solely a way of BHVR discouraging abuse of the system.
- Playing to get the other side to abandon ought to be discouraged; they don't want killers to play for the "cause all survivors to abandon" win condition so they don't make it one, and say they consider it a draw for the killer.
- They've been very consistent in not wanting the killer to 3-gen, so they try to take away the potential of [the thing Hens described at the beginning of the video] by considering it a killer loss.
- They don't want to punish survivors for having inconsiderate teammates, but they also don't want to reward it. Also if all survivors abandoning is considered a draw for the killer, it should be a draw for the last survivor.
- They're trying to discourage mass slugging gameplay and make people who get mass slugged less annoyed, so they're considering it a draw instead of a loss for the survivors. The last-two-survivors scenario just happens to get caught in the crossfire. Not that it matters, since this doesn't affect MMR and is just a player psychology thing they did
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I mean, it should really be not that hard: the outcome of the match is pretty much already determined, ie everybody loses, so just abandon to spare everyone the hooking and cleanup animation, the survivors lose, the killer wins, but everyone keeps their points. So WHY do we even have this chart with all this "win" and "loss" boxes in it? I have a feeling that the 7-9min killer queues of the moment got something to do with this abandon system haywiring everything MMR related, but it seems to also being not so clearcut as Hens made it out to be. Still, something is up and we can't dig deep and keep looking, because MMR is just a black box with no real way of looking in. At this point no one trusts the MMR system anymore and the "keeping it hidden so that it can just do its job in peace" probebly didn't work out, in the end, like so many people predicted. But alas, I will gladly eat my words, if someone in the know really explains what this all is about. But the best thing would be to lift the veil on MMR.
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You cannot truly 100% apply symmetrical rules and conditions to an asymmetrical game.
Post edited by LockerLurk on0 -
The conversation around fairness often becomes skewed when viewed only through one team's lens. But balance isn’t about protecting your side.. it’s about respecting both. If survivors must endure slugging until every last drop of blood is squeezed out, then killers should be expected to earn their win properly… hook by hook, not by vanishing the moment bots appear.
Fairness isn't what you demand for yourself. It’s what you’re willing to accept when the roles are reversed.
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Honestly, I think getting rid of MMR would be the best solution.
Bring back the old rank system with the actual rank reset and call it a day.
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Please point to where in either of my prior posts I "protected my side." Which side do you think I play?
Wrong. I play both sides pretty evenly. Let me guess, you thought it was Killer because of my PFP?
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It’s not about which icon someone plays under,,, it’s about where their consistency lies.
If 99% of someone’s posts are dedicated to defending Killers, addressing only their frustrations, their losses, their disadvantages… then no amount of “I play both sides” rhetoric changes that.
True balance advocacy means standing up for both sides especially when it’s inconvenient.
And that’s what separates those who want fairness from those who want favor… just cloaked in the language of “even ground".-1 -
If you checked my recent posts even from today, you would see I have also defended Survivors many times. I defended AFC. I defended the Kaneki nerfs. I defended the coming Go Next prevention as a way to help Survivors have better teammates in games and not a 3v1 stomp. I defended a LOT of stuff from the Survivor perspective and DO stand up for them too.
Because I also play Survivor, friend.
In fact I do not think I have ever, not once, never ever not even once, asked for some special favors for Killer side just because I play Killer. I might PREFER Killer, which is the reason I call myself a Killer Main. But that doesn't mean I hate Survivors, want to nerf Survivors, don't play Survivor, or won't stand up for Survivor side when they have issues that need addressing.
The Us vs. Them is a really bad look. Please cease.
Post edited by LockerLurk on-5 -
The downvote system is a terrible addition to the Forums, and it doesn't reflect anything. As of this moment, I have 139 downvotes. Which means, 139 situations where someone chose to click on the downvote option.
Out of 139, in 0 of them have I received a reply or even any attempt whatsoever of a discussion or engagement. And if there is no discussion, the number on the screen is meaningless.
This isn't Reddit.
Post edited by Rizzo on2 -
You're right in one regard → downvotes alone don’t define the quality of an argument. But when someone accumulates hundreds of them while actively posting in high-traffic, often contentious threads, it becomes less about the button and more about the pattern.
Downvotes without replies may not be ideal feedback… but when they follow posts that consistently push one narrative, dismiss counterpoints, and resist nuance, the silence isn't a flaw of the system... it’s the community making a silent judgment.
This isn’t Reddit, sure. But it’s also not a vacuum.
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This is all wildly off topic but OK, let's address this discussion here.
Your math isn't right, my guy. Flip that, ratios do not work that way. As of this post I have 1000 downvotes to 2000 upvotes over my entire post history on this website (taking only from high traffic threads is too small a sample size to be meaningful). That's actually a 2:1 UPVOTE ratio. That means my takes are considered controversial, or different from what most people might say, not bad or invalid takes. You'd be right if I had 2000 downvotes, but I do not have 2000 downvotes. I have 1000 and even on my most downvoted takes I still have the same ratio of downvotes to upvotes - one has 14 downvotes and 14 upvotes which is the same as having 0 votes at all. That means 1000 people disagreed with me and pressed a button; it functionally means nothing concrete because you're always going to get SOMEONE who disagrees, and if it's a Killer related take you're always going to get four times as many Survivor players disagreeing with it as Killer players, because there's 4:1 Survivors to Killers. That's just how it is in this community, I've been in it since 2017 and it's not changed since.
Besides, this sort of voting system can be and usually is also deeply flawed. This type of voting system can be and almost always is used just to troll and target people on every site I have seen it on. It's pretty much never used for its intended purpose and always just used to shut down discussion and go "BUT YOU GOT RATIOED SO YOUR OPINIONS DON'T MATTER!" as an argument - kind of like you're doing here right now. There's posts in the Offtopic channel where people admitted they "salt" and "troll" downvote with this system because they think it's funny. It also falsely lets the Devs and others conclude that needed changes may not be needed just because enough people might have thought it fun to downvote someone. This kind of voting system has never been healthy for any site it's been added to, and cannot be trusted. It shuts down arguments, discourages actual discussion, and creates a horrible environment based on clout instead of actually talking to anyone - why engage when you can just downvote because everyone else is doing it?
But none of that matters because again, as per my history on this site, this past month I have defended Survivor several times. I just did that this morning several times in terms of the new AFK crow system in the PTB. In fact those posts have a lot more upvotes than downvotes. It just so happens most of the complaints in this game get lodged at Killers, so therefore I post a little more defending the Killer side.
You also privated your profile, so conveniently we can't see how many downvotes YOU have, either. Good call, it's just used to target people anyway, so I have followed suit because I am sick of being targeted by people who follow my profile just to downvote everything I say carte blanche. Which I know happens, because I have seen it happen to others here and even get people banned. This system is unhealthy for the forums and I have said that from day one.
All this is highly off topic anyway, friend. You are never going to find someone who does not have bias on these forums, yourself included. It seems you have a Survivor bias actually, and that's fine, everyone has a bias somewhere. I'll be first to admit I have a slight Killer bias because I prefer that side. But I actually play a lot more Survivor. I think most people actually play both sides. Why, instead of trying to call out a meaningless number of up and down votes in a flawed voting system used only to troll and dunk on people instead of aiding discussion, don't you ask me what I actually think about Survivor side and what Survivors need instead of assuming? In fact my initial post replying to you actually defends Survivor side because slugging is not their fault, and I said as much. Just because I also mentioned Killers playing with bots does not make it a Killer-sided take, and just because you - and I know it is you and pretty much only you alongside a couple Survivor-biased people - are downvoting the post does not make it "the community making a silent judgement". You are not the entire community, and people not voting on a post does not mean they don't agree with it. They just don't see the take as bad enough to ratio me over, meaning they actually probably silently agree with it.
Actually, I'm pretty sure I only get downvoted on long posts like these because people don't want to read me yapping this much, it's off topic, and it doesn't aid discussion either.
Post edited by LockerLurk on0 -
Back on topic here: It's a good thing that a forfeit by either side is now considered a loss because forfeiting is when you go "OK you are better than me, I concede, GGs". That's always been what forfeiting is, it's a form of being a good sport about a loss. You shouldn't be able to just force a draw by giving up. Again, it isn't fair that a Killer can force people to give up by slugging to force a loss/draw, nor is it fair that Survivors can hide for 10+ minutes in the Trial and force a loss/Draw for Killers. Nobody playing should be forced to eat an abandon.
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My thought is that it's a draw so they can toss those losses out and continue to say that that the game is 60/40.
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