http://dbd.game/killswitch
The stupidly long leap window is what makes the Ghoul so miserable to face
Even after the recent "nerfs", The Ghoul’s leap window is completely busted. 5 full seconds to land a hitscan grab is just absurd. That one detail alone makes him miserable to go against. This killer literally gets a massive window to score a free hit with zero effort required.
Wesker has 3 seconds between dashes. Nurse gets 1.5 between blinks. Ghoul gets five seconds to float around and still grab you the second you enter line of sight. And it’s a hitscan so no aiming, no timing, no commitment. You don’t have to be clever, you don’t have to predict anything. You just wait and click. It’s a braindead power with no consequences for missing.
Most killers with strong abilities have some kind of drawback. If you miss as Blight or Nurse, you could mess up your bump logic or get fatigue. Even Wesker has to land his dash properly. But Ghoul? He misses and just tries again. And leaving the loop does not help because he can catch up in 2 seconds. Hell, even the Spirit's power, requires you to pay attention to grass and listen to footsteps.
If that leap window was shorter by even one or two seconds, the whole thing would feel different. The rest of his kit would still be insanely strong, but at least he’d have to earn his first hit. Right now, he doesn’t. He just holds the power and eventually you’re injured. The skill ceiling just isn't there.
How is that kind of design healthy for the game? I'm convinced the leap window is what makes this killer so oppressive, and until the devs reduce it, matches against him will keep feeling cheap, repetitive, and unfair. With FNAF around the corner, I’m scared they’re just going to leave it as is. Although, let’s be real, at that point I'm pretty sure it’s going to be Springtrap every game.
Comments
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I completely agree. Why does he need 5 seconds to wander around for his free hit? I wonder if it is a leftover relic from when the ghoul had to aim.
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All of those killers can down with their powers.
One free hit is not a problem when he can't use his power to down.
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I respectfully disagree with the idea that “getting a free injury state” isn’t a big deal just because the killer can’t immediately down from their power. That first health state does matter and dismissing it overlooks why things like tunneling are so effective. Survivors coming off hook at full health would be make tunneling significantly more difficult because it's the loss of a health state that quickens the down. Once you’ve lost a health state, you're significantly more vulnerable. That logic directly applies here.
The Ghoul’s free hit creates immediate pressure and opens the door for snowballing. Pair that with his excellent mobility, and getting to injured survivors becomes even easier. So while he can’t use his power to down, the free hit still gives him a strong advantage. Especially because that first hit is not just an injury but also a mend, creating a form of passive slowdown for the survivors to mend before they bleed out.
For the record, I don’t think Ghoul is OP. I do think some of the hit validation, like the ones through walls or second stories needs work, but overall he feels alright. That said, I do think the free hit is a meaningful strength. If he didn’t have that free health state, I don’t believe he’d be nearly as strong. You can’t really say that removing it would weaken him significantly while also claiming that it doesn’t matter. It does. It’s not broken, but it’s strong.
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Yeah, but the thing is...he isn't the only killer with a free first hit. Legion, all stealthy killers on indoor maps, and Plague (although it is slow) do too. Kaneki isn't even the best killer at spreading pressure that way because it isn't passive and it's only one survivor at a time.
There's a reason most good survivors don't really heal. It's not actually necessary. The only reason you'd need to is if you're dead on hook or in a deadzone.
You can't really say that removing it would weaken him significantly while also claiming it doesn't matter
I never said the hit itself didn't matter. That is his power, after all. I just said that a single free hit isn't problematic.
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Forgive me, when I said "you can't really say that removing it would weaken him signifcantly while also claiming it doesn't matter" I meant it generally, not you specifically, but that was poor phrasing on my part. Apologies.
I do understand he isn't the only killer with a free first hit, but none of them have the same kind of mobility that he does, which changes the value of the hit. Just because a stealth killer like Mike may manage to sneak a first "free" hit (though I do feel this is debateable, as with Mike, the survivor is punished for being caught of guard at close range, and when it comes to the ghoul, the survivor is punished for being in a general line of sight even at a significant distance) but Mikes lack of mobility changes the value of that 1st "free" hit. It all depends on the killer (and the players personal skill of course) Some maps are terrible for some killers, while others are perfect. Certain perks are difficult to get value from with one killer, while that same perk is great on someone else. Same thing with a free first hit. An injury will always valuable, but combined with a killer that has the kind of mobility/anti-loop the Ghoul has (like when enraged), and that first hit becomes even more valuable.And I agree, choosing to stay injured can sometimes be the right call, but even if it is the right call it still does put you at a much more vulnerable state. You have to play much safer, you can't greed pallets as much, can't take protection hits or go for risky saves/gens, and you run the risk of a snowball if the entire team is injured. I think there are far too many factors that go into a match to say that you should never heal unless dead on hook or a deadzone.
Again, this may just be a polite agree to disagree, but in my opinion, being injured versus full health is a significant difference. And a power that nearly guarantees that injured state shouldn’t be dismissed when evaluating the killer’s overall strength. It may not be overpowered, but it is a meaningful advantage. I think that free 1st hit ability was taken away, he would be much weaker. If he would be weaker without it, then that means he is stronger with it, which means it does matter.
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Forgive me, when I said "you can't really say that removing it would weaken him signifcantly while also claiming it doesn't matter" I meant it generally, not you specifically, but that was poor phrasing on my part. Apologies.
I see, that makes more sense
I do understand he isn't the only killer with a free first hit, but none of them have the same kind of mobility that he does, which changes the value of the hit.
Which is made up for in other areas. He can't get multiple at once like Legion. His hits don't spread free map pressure like Plague. And remember, stealthy killers on indoor maps don't just injure. If you're already injured you're going down.
Kaneki's mobility is still a tradeoff here. His individual hits are more powerful in some ways and less in others.
I think there are far too many factors that go into a match to say that you should never heal unless dead on hook or a deadzone.
I was simplifying it. There are more situations, they're just rare.
The thing is, everything useful you could do with that extra health state matters significantly less than more gen progress 90% of the time. Dbd is a game about efficiency, after all. It's more efficient to slam gens and not worry about heals until someone really needs them.
I do appreciate you having an actual discussion, by the way. It's a nice breath of fresh air from the people screaming for nerfs to a killer that's never come close to Nurse or Blight tier.
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Kaneki is slightly stronger than Legion in every category but widespread pressure
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I actually suggest that nerf a while ago to make him more skillful to play instead of just waiting it out until you reach survivors. His hitscan injury is the only frustration I have when playing against this killer.
If the devs touch him again I hope they give him a little quality of live by reducing the minimum required leap distance to 3 meters.
Post edited by Langweilig on-2 -
Legion is weaker because outside of the occassional 5th frenzy hit down, their power's only purpose is getting quick injuries and disincentivising healing and that's about it. It has some other useful applications like vaulting pallets/windows, bodyblocking or denying unhooks but for the most part you'll be getting your hits then cancelling and chasing normally.
Kaneki on the other hand has incredible mobility on top of having one of the easiest free hits in the game. Legion has to actually get close enough to you and hit you which means there's room for whiffs/pallet stuns and the like; Kaneki doesn't have this. Breaking LOS is the only thing you can do and sometimes even that doesn't work due to the generous nature of the hitscan/killer ping.
Before his nerfs, Kaneki could zone you by breaking a pallet then just immediately leaping after you before you can get anywhere. Though, he's still incredibly good at closing the distance and getting the 2nd hit which is what Legion struggles with the most.
In a nutshell, Legion is better at keeping people injured but Kaneki is the better overall killer due to mobility + lethality + versatility of their power. Legion also by design encourages survivors to spread out/split up which is the most optimal way for a team to play.
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Exactly. He can only get first hit and then he has to use his power to leap right next to you and then wait for the -lemme check- ah yes, ONE SECOND cooldown in order to down you. That's fair!
Wait what
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Had a few games against him yesterday and i have to say - i don´t like it.
Yes, it may be this first hit which feels incredibly awful. Also he was soo fast… he was on us across the map a few secs after the hook.
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he has to use his power to leap right next to you and then wait for the -lemme check- ah yes, ONE SECOND cooldown in order to down you. That's fair!
It really is, because an entire second of movement lock is absolutely no joke and if you're not in the open or playing a loop badly, it will never come into play. You can't even grab onto a wall that's close to you, removing literally all chance of using it in a loop.
Idk why you'd name yourself flawless when your skill issues are this blatant
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My brother in Christ. Even the ######### Huntress has a TWO SECOND cooldown after throwing a hatchet. So yes, a one second cooldown after using your power is laughable. And no, this isn’t about using your power in a loop. Nobody who’s played this game for more than 20 hours would seriously attempt that, but thanks for the strawman. Also, since you brought it up, kidnap tech is still a thing. Pretty good job, BHVR. But that’s beside the point.
What's interesting is how fast you resorted to personal attacks the second someone pointed out something in the kit that might be, I don’t know, a little busted? You need to actually be good at the game to notice when something’s overtuned. I showed up ready for a discussion. You showed up yelling “skill issue” like that’s a mic drop. If that’s all you got, cool, go off, I guess.
But what really kills me is that you seriously tried to argue that a one-second cooldown after cutting off or bodyblocking a survivor isn't extremely generous. No wonder you’re so against shortening the leap window to something remotely fair like three or four seconds. Wouldn’t want to actually use both of your braincells to line up a hit instead of getting a grab spoon-fed to you.
The only thing that would change is you’d occasionally have to aim and think. Right now, it requires zero skill. And if that works for you then great, but some of us do want this game to be fair and fun for both sides ya know.
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The hatchet injures you and gives a speed boost. Imagine trying to compare them.
I'm resorting to personal attacks because I'm really tired of skilless losers crying about Legion v2. You're actually terrible and crying about a B tier killer. Want to start surviving Kaneki more? Grow a goddamn brain. Dbd isn't even a hard game and you're somehow still struggling.
On top of that, your suggested nerfs are RIDICULOUS too. Three to four seconds? That makes him a straight up M1 killer with zero upside to picking him. It's not exactly hard to LOS someone moving slower than you, buddy. You don't even want balance, you just want to gut everything you personally are too TERRIBLE to outplay.
So yes, I'm resorting to personal attacks. You deserve them.
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I just hate the hit stun being locked in place for several seconds to watch a terrible animation as I get screamed at by a teenager, fun and engaging gameplay.
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Absolutely, I always appreciate thoughtful discussion especially when it’s respectful. I don’t need full agreement to find value in a conversation, only an understanding of perspective regardless if it’s the same one. I think challenging and being challenged is how we grow. So I genuinely appreciate your openness and honesty, even if we don’t see everything the same way.
That said, I’m not entirely sure we even do disagree much. From what you’ve shared, I find myself agreeing with most of it. The only area where we may diverge is just the value of the injury state on the Ghoul. Personally, I don’t think he’s OP, but I do believe his ability to secure an almost guaranteed injury adds significantly to his overall strength. I don’t think that because he can’t down you as instantly as he can injure you means it should be dismissed in terms of impact/value. While it doesn’t make him OP in my view, I do think it contributes to his strength.It’s possible we’re circling the same point with slightly different words, which isn’t my intention. If you feel that the inability to down with his power outweighs the injury pressure he brings, that’s completely valid for your opinion. I just personally see the free injury and mobility together as a meaningful form of strength, even if it’s not quite on the level of killers like Blight or Nurse, who I wouldn’t consider ideal models for balance, personally.
In any case, I’ve really enjoyed the exchange. Thanks again for engaging in this discussion, it’s been genuinely refreshing. I appreciate you taking the time to share your perspective. :)2
