http://dbd.game/killswitch
The gap between Nurse and Trapper is unacceptable
So much fun seeing the same 3 horribly balanced killers of Nurse, Blight and Ghoul over and over. Insane to me BHVR sees no problems with any of them and we're doing things like touching Artist add ons or almost nerfing Xeno into the ground.
Nerf these 3 and start buffing the weaker killers like Trapper and Ghost Face so we can have some actual variety in a game with 40 killers where you only run into 4-5 consistently because as long as these top 3 are allowed to be as ridiculous as they are there should be no hint of any of other killer being touched unless it's a buff.
And you'll notice I left out Billy here because I don't see Billy much. Why? Because Billy takes actual skill and work to play and herein lies the problem of BHVR's misconception of some of these killers. We all recognize Ghoul's skill floor is in the basement but Nurse and Blight are nowhere near as hard as people within BHVR seem to think. Nurse having to look down at lot is annoying but it's not difficult to deal with or offset the massive advantage you get off of just getting to ignore the core looping mechanic the game is built around. Same with Blight, yeah the curving is a little tricky at first but once you acclimate you can be everywhere at once and most loops arn't as hard to deal with than they first appear and "run fast" isn't a hard concept for a person to rap their mind around.
Meanwhile take Trapper who has to have map knowledge, herd survivors into correct pathing and plan ahead to perform well. You're telling me he can't start with all his traps because he's just the default killer for new players to get used to the game with like Wraith isn't right there and much better for that while being much stronger than Trapper.
Or take Ghost Face who has to skulk around and watch people and plan out his kill in a game where time is against the killer. Ghost Face is a really fun concept there's a lot of enjoyment in sneaking up to someone unnoticed to take them down and finding no angles and peek holes to fill up the meter but it gets stressful when you don't really have the time to do that because you know the gens could be popped at any moment. And why take the time to carefully plan all that with no chase power for a plan B when you can just be so fast nothing matters or teleport through any object?
I get some killers are always going to be stronger than others but I refuse to believe the current variance has to be as wide as it is or that easier killers should be so much stronger than killers that take game knowledge and skill.
Comments
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Top killers can't be nerfed without nerfing the things top teams use to beat them, which would have catastrophic effects on the playerbase as a whole. You think survivor feels bad now? Imagine everything you hate about the role but 10x worse now because you wanted to nerf killers that are rare to face to begin with.
Moreover, Nurse and Blight are so disproportionately strong because they have actual map pressure and time efficiency baked into their kits. Other killers do not, and that's the root of the problem. No matter how much you buff certain killers, they won't ever be good because their powers don't fit into the game correctly. The only killer not commonly considered S tier that could compete with Nurse/Blight levels of viability is Hag, but she's more map dependent and therefore less consistent than those two.
Variety in dbd exists because "high MMR" is really just a soft cap that everyone and their mother reached when it was added to the game to begin with, so everyone is technically the same rank and there's no matchmaking. I don't care how good you say you are, no one is facing constant cracked Nurses or SWF teams. This game simply doesn't have the matchmaking for that to happen. That's why you see such long winstreaks and high killrates from good killers. I can count on one hand the number of times I've faced a good team in the past two YEARS. It's rare, because this game has a large playerbase and there's nothing to make good players face other good players.
TLDR: Nerfing strong killers is a waste of time because it will only hurt player numbers, buffing weak killers is a waste of time because it'll never make them strong unless you break something big, and no one is actually affected by this so-called "lack of variety" because there's no matchmaking system to speak of.
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What would you buff about Trapper? When people bring up this "gap" between killers they always wanting to nerf the top but not raise the bottom. You at least said buff the bottom but how?
Odd that you would bring up Billy. When people talked about Nurse being #1, Billy was always #2. What you are asking them to do with the top is what the did to Billy. Face it, survivors don't want strong killers. Any killer we get that's above average is called broken and demanded to be nerf. Trapper is not the low end. It's what they want as normal.
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I brought up billy exactly because he's strong but fine to go against because you actually have to be good at billy to get results and most killer players don't wanna put that work in. I'm not saying I don't want strong killers at all, I think Billy, Dracula, Singularity, Twins are all great because they're both strong and require skill to actually make work. I have a problem with Nurse, Blight, and Ghoul because they're both ridiculously strong and are rather easy to get results with. Nurse is a special case because you just don't play DBD in Nurse games and that's a design flaw that's been looked past for far too long.
As for what I would do with Trapper I think let him start with all his traps and let traps inflict deep would base kit if the survivor escapes from it and that would go a long way. It saves trapper a lot of time at the beginning of the game while creating some stall if he can't get to his trap at the time. Trapper will never be A tier and I don't think you want a trap killer to ever be A tier because they tend to stall games the most but I think there's no reason he can't get to low B with the proper buffs.
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No they need destroyed, such boring gameplay. It's not fair and they need to come down and low tier killers come up.
boring utter bad gameplay design that makes me hate this game-7 -
Then we'll have to nerf pretty much every meta survivor perk into the ground.
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nah we lost dead hard, that's enough its just ghoul who is zzzzzzzz anti thesis to this game
anyways who are you you dont soun like you play both sides0 -
I think with all the changes coming to survivor some of the lower end killers can use a bump to keep up with the times. Seems fair. I think there’s always ways you can alleviate whether it’s just adding something in for them or just a buff to numbers to help out.
Trapper should start with all his traps for one unless he’s using the reset addons. I saw someone say he should be able to throw traps, I think that’s a fun idea.
Hag decrease on teleport time, buff her ms a little bit
That’s just off the top of my head.
Stealth killers ms buff when not in chase
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Yess, let's let everyone have fun <3
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I don't think this would be possible as it'd lead to the legion effect, where you could trail survivors while not being in a chase with them. It'd result in annoying gameplay where the optimal play is moonwalking at your opponent.
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I don’t main these killers so whoever plays them the most would probably have more ideas on what would make them feel better. Maybe a proximity feature that goes off distance to survivor that determines that so even if they moonwalk it doesn’t matter
except trapper, I love to play trapper from time to time.0 -
Dead Hard is still a meta perk, ######### are you talking about? You still see it almost every game.
If you nerfed every strong killer into B or C tier, then you'll kill the game. End of story. Nobody likes getting tbagged in the gates. And B tier killers can't reasonably go against good survivors running meta perks.
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No I don't, it's a strong perk but it's not exactly that common I'm sure official stats confirm this.
No pain res is still S tier among others, what are you on about, idk it's not perks I'm on about its not like items are s-tier, huh?
I just want more fun interaction, play more survivor please-1 -
What is a "fun interaction?" Be specific.
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where it's not one sided, none of this 4 gen regression stopping survivors from playing the game fairly, or tunneling. I feel like there is probably full gen rush builds but IDK what they are coz I dont run them? maybe, with the spawn changes etc it's not so much an issue? Maybe? idk.
I just want it to be more fun for both sides, idk killer queue times are longer for a reason atm and I can barely queue for them.-2 -
While it'll be hard (likely impossible) to close the gap that doesn't mean it would be pointless. Making the weak killers stronger will make them actually feel good to play as. Yeah Trapper will never be competing with Nurse for the top of S tier but making him more viable seems like a worthwhile venture to me.
I find this to be completely untrue. Most everyone was very upset when Billy got nerfed all those years ago. The majority of survivors like facing strong killers. They just want them to be at a level where they feel like there's a fair chance.
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Killer queues are longer because we just got a killer only chapter that brought in tens of thousands of players. Those queues are already starting to even out. I've had killer queue bonus every evening this week from 9pm on, and the longest queue I've seen in the last couple of days was three minutes or so.
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I believe that the root of the problem is that BHVR doesn’t have the resources to rework old killers to help level out the balance from top to bottom. The amount of content in the game is out of control now, and just gets worse with every new chapter. All of BHVR’s resources are spent on developing the next chapter, creating new cosmetics and (slowly) fixing bugs. There’s very little resource left to work on old content, and as the amount of old content grows, those already thin resources get spread thinner and thinner.
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I don't think it is that, it's been like this even during the orela rose chapter for example. Maybe it'll be better during walkinf dead I guess, but it's been really bad. Think about 2v8, it's another good example, how does th 2 outweight the 8? It feels like BHVR barely polish/care about the survivor side anymore.
Like think about it, if survivor was made more fun, you'd get faster killer queues, which means we all win, I don't want omg win every match perks
I just want a game where I'm not being punished for doing well, and playing fairly. I'm an honest player as survivor who plays to the best I can, yet how tf am I 35 percent and that's with the abandon glitch too.
Killer I'm doo doo at yet I'm doing crazy on it in some killers, I'd have more data but queues are so long its unenticing.
Could you post your stats since you seem to spend more time than me? I'd love to see
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Stats are broken at the moment. Disconnects and abandons count as escapes. Also, I think "Last 30 Days" is more telling than "All Time."
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Yes, the start with all traps is a common suggestion. But we do see the result because it's already an addon. Players would lock down a single location and camp out a survivor. I can hear the pitchforks and torches already.
Tell me, what buffs could we give to normal M1 killers to make them more viable?
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I haven't once seen a strong killer that didn't receive daily calls for nerfs. It's one thing for people to call for nerfs, its another when the Devs actual do in the name of fun and interactive.
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I came up with a buff for Trapper that I'm sure isn't original at all but I'll share it anyway. I was going to suggest it as an add-on, but I guess it could be base-kit too.
The idea is this: anytime a Survivor steps in one of your traps, receive a haste bonus for X amount of seconds. I can't figure out what the numbers should be to make them balanced, but that's the concept. One of the most frustrating things about playing Trapper is having to cross the map to catch a Survivor in your trap before they (or someone else) can free themselves. If he gained a little speed boost, he'd maybe be able to reach them sooner and could also afford to trap more sections of the map instead of having to cluster around a 3 gen or the basement. He'd also get a little bit of value from a trapped Survivor even if he was way too far away to pick them up (say, when in a chase with another Survivor, for example).
Edit: I also think it's kinda wild that he has to run an add-on just to avoid stepping in his own traps. Few other Killers can be screwed over by their own power like that (Nemi with his zombies body blocking him or giving Survivors a speed boost, I guess). I will admit that it is pretty funny, though.
The main weakness of Killers that have to traverse the map on foot is how long it takes them to patrol gens when compared with the likes of Billy/Nurse/Blight. So then BHVR shrinks the maps to compensate and suddenly the last 3 gens are always an easy to defend 3 gen to a decent Billy player. This is why I don't understand players who say that DBD is competitive (or that it should be), when examples like this show how it can never fully be properly balanced.
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What do you mean "no one is affected by lack of variety"?
I was affected by it for a long time! I am facing blights, nurses, kanekis, weskers only!
You're being a fool now.
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Your region may be different then others, keep it in mind.
You're always defending the killer side. Stop it, survivior problems are important.
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The point is that their power is fundamentaly broken that nerfing them wouldn't really help and I kinda like the easy-to hard modes depending on what killers you pick. I don't play any of those three you mentioned. But my highest kill rates are on killers like Sadako and Pig, which are considered as weaker. Also over the time whole killer roaster got multiple buffs meaning that D tier killers like Trapper or Skull Merchant (SM is exception now), are far not as weak as they used to be, but all killers got so much better that they are still weaker than them.
Trapper had hard time, sabotagable traps, no traps at the start, rng number of traps, bigger maps etc., trapper himself is not good killer but his traps are one of best lockdowns and antiloop in the game, it's just if they step on them. And trapper kind of suffer from not being buffed again because, 1) everyone runs double iri, which makes him very strong, 2) his basement playstyle, which is pretty common is hard to beat even by good teams. This is why he has still insanely high kill rate (I have 71 % on him atm).
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The only complaint Billy got back in the day was instasaw. Wesker only got complaints because people got tired of seeing him 7 out 10 matches. Can't recall anyone complaining about Oni. Like I said most people enjoy strong killers that feel fair to face.
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BS, no you're not. You're facing Kaneki and Springtrap more only because they're new
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No. I am facing only those killers and Springtrap. I definitely know more about my experience then you do.
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If I'm honest, one way to help mitigate this a little bit, in my opinion, is to start tweaking base stats a bit more.
I know BHVR is very scared of having way too much variety for killers' kits, and rightfully because we have over 40 killers with more and more complex powers but I really think we should start "customizing" fundamental interaction time.
What I mean is that weaker killers because of no mobility or no antiloop should naturally have a faster pallet break animation, maybe a faster vault, or dare I say maybe we should break the 115% base speed limit to 120%?
While at the same time, Blight should be 110%, Kaneki might as well be or at least those killers should have to gamble more whether they should break a pallet or not. Removing tokens from Kaneki was already a good step in that direction. While Trapper could just be faster on those as a compensation for no mobility or active anti loop.
We already fiddle with killers' base speed, terror radius size, walking noises (some killers are not as strong with oblivious/undetectable build), some killers can vault pallets or windows faster as a feature built-in their power.
I know it comes with its amount of problems but I don't know how we can lower the gap between high and low tiers if we don't fundamentally alter how the game works. Nerfing Nurse and Blight harshly sounds more reasonable than gigabuffing Trapper especially since he's a free killer, probably played a lot by beginners so if he's dumb at lower levels of play, I don't know if beginner survivors will want to keep playing the game. But if I'm BHVR's advocate, stats wise, his killrate is not 80% lower than that of Kaneki or Blight. So… is he THAT much weaker, all trials considered?
Now again, it's just an idea and AGAIN, no, it doesn't mean survivors wouldn't need some adjustments0 -
There's this double standard where killers are expected to be balanced around top 1% while survivors are balanced around casuals who can't be bothered to learn the basics. Also comp SWFs don't exist and we have to think about the gameplay experience of weed.vegeta2010 who listens to rap on full volume 11 hours a day at 138 decibels then cries that Springtrap is too op because he keeps grabbing him off a gen.
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so just buff the bottom tiers to the strength of nurse and blight
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It doesn't really make sense to nerf good killers just because they are better than lowest tier killers. Trapper etc are definetly not good standard how strong killer should be.
Not like there are not good ways to nerfs those killers, but this is simply bad argument for it.
Issue is some killers simply can't be ever top tier killers simply by nature of their power.0 -
Billy got complained about a lot back in the day. I'm going back to Steam forum days. The ironic part, Billy was accepted more right before the nerf.
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You can raise the bottom and nerf the top. Nurse needs a rework where she has to not only work for her blinks, but can't use them at the start. Blight needs his base speed nerfed and he needs his add-ons nerfed. Ghoul needs to have his hitscan health state bull to be reworked as as well as power cancelling nerfs since he truly is a Killer for imbeciles.
"Survs don't want strong Killers" or how about Survs don't want Killers that make the game unwinnable 30 seconds into the match, but then drag the match on for 5 more miserable minutes so that they can farm for bloodpoints for themselves.
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Starting with all traps has the downsides explained by the addon. The addon has a downside that you cannot move the traps after placing. This makes the addon less popular to other addons and not an issue in survivors minds. Making it basekit now brings it to the front and every survivor that goes against a Trapper will believe every basement hook is the same as Basement Bubba.
A buff I would like to see is the ability to hold more traps. At least half the available on the map.
On topic, there's many ways to buff low tier killers without affecting the upper tiers. The issue is every time a low tier gets buff the buffs are removed (or made worse than they were before) or reduced to a quality of life. Nurse has been nerfed massively since her release yet the bottom tier stays where they are. Maybe its time you all focus on buffing the low tier killers.
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To be clear I think Nurse, Blight, Ghoul should be nerfed regardless due to how strong they are compared to how easy they are to play.
I guess you could make the skill floor for them much higher too and that'd also be an alright fix but idk how you do that without reworking them completely.
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I don't think Blight is that easy to play after hugtech removal, but for example the feature of Kaneki that would set his tokens to (-2 of his maximum) on pallet destroy would be fine imo and would nerf the most boring way of playing him.
Nurse is easy basically when you stack aura reading perks, so I would definetly want her to not being able to see survivor auras while charging blink. That would make her so much more fun to play against imo, when you can actually mind game.
I don't really mind playing against Nurse/Blight, they have their limits you can play around. I wouldn't want to nerf them in boring a way (cooldown, speed etc)
I would say changes I talked about at least for Nurse and Blight would increase their skill floor quite a lot without making them feel bad to play as.I hate Kaneki, so I am very biased there. His skill floor is not even in same category as Blight/Nurse imo. I have no idea why he can do so many things with free first hit on top of it.
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You want nerfs for the top because you don't like them. Your proposals are to stop the killers from being played not to make them "fair".
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faster hooks due to self unhooks. In the case of Trapper, they is no escape.
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Excuse me? Who are you to tell me what I can and can't defend?
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No, I want nerfs because those Killers are op and lack proper counters. Then I want the plethora of lower tier Killers, buffed and reworked. Let's be completely honest as well, Blight/Nurse/Kaneki have boring powers and gameplay loops, in part because of the lack of counters and interaction. The lower tier Killers are so much more fun to face and that's not because they suck, most of them do really well, especially in SoloQ (which is what I play with Surv), but because interacting with their powers is more engaging and they also have counters that can be utilized if played correctly.
Nurse truly is just blink hit blink down 10 seconds into the match. Blight ofc will run lethal and down someone in again, 10 seconods. Kaneki is just a lame Killer with lame powers for lame people, the hitscan proves that. They also are some of the most toxic players in the game, mainly Blight and Nurse, they often slug and tunnel because they're upset no one wants to participate in their little power trip ego boost.
So again, they need nerfs/reworks and the lower tier Killers need to be buffed. Buff all Killers to their level and the game will be dead, Killer wait times will be incredibly long and no bloodpoint incentives will get Surv players to stay, people are barely staying in matches as it is.
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How about we buff the weaker killers so they can actually be competitive? No, you just want an excuse to demand more killers get put in the dumpster with the skull merchant.
And you are using inflammatory language when describing those killers and their players. Please.
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They could easily give trapper a major buff by allowing him to start with all traps at the beginning of the trial, to hold as many as exist on the entire map, and to remotely recall them… heck even remotely resetting them could be a cool feature on a cooldown.
But until then, having to walk all around the map JUST TO USE YOUR POWER is absurd.
edit: Traps could also start armed at useful locations…
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Whilst I agree, I think that Trapper is impossible to buff because of territorial basement strats the survivor playerbase won't find fun to see more often and have be even more potent. Myers has the same issue because of Tombstone - it's thematically perfect, but uninteractive enough that it can't risk being buffed.
I also think Nurse is near-impossible to nerf without making a new killer. You could remove aura usage from her kit entirely, but she'd still be the strongest killer in the game.
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Trapper basement playstyle isn't really a game winner since the Trapper has to waste a large amount of time and resources setting it up while the survs get to do gens largely unimpeded. You're looking at at least 4 traps, 2 for the stairs and 1 for each of the shack doors. On maps where the basement isn't in the killer shack, the basement strategy is largely ineffective.
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I'm just giving the stat that would cause the most uproar. Not the optimal why to play.
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They just want the DH Dash back
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Well a lot of times when a survivor is hooked in basement and the killer is proxy camping, the whole team is just screwed. But it's moreso for trapper and bubba.
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