Thoughts on NOED "rewarding bad play"
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If you say it boosts bad killers, even if its by a small margin, look for the totems and prevent it. Technically its lazy survivors boosting bad killers.
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Remember. It doesn't reward bad play unless it makes the low skill option ALSO optimal compared to the high skill option:
EX: Letting the 3rd survivor die to take the hatch is optimal compared to saving him and doing the last 3 gens with 2 people.
and NOT when you are able to potentially recover from a bad position:
EX: Getting hit and then later healing
Most perks including NOED (and yes even DS. It has other problems) are in the second category since a Killer with NOED active is less likely to win than a Killer with 3 perks and gens still up.
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So if the survivor is playing with AD they're also only playing with 3 perks the entire game right? The killer can negate that perk from ever activating by sacrificing that survivor thereby increasing their odds of winning. (subjectively)
Also not in reference to your post but in general: So because the survivor CAN finish the gens in under 4 minutes means they actually will? The same is true of killer a nurse if well played can end the game in under 2 minutes.
That doesn't mean she will but on average which is more likely to happen, a good nurse 4king really quickly or good Huntress cough Umbara_Bug/Severenken etc.
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"Noed is just a free win for people being too stupid doing their objective properly and a punishment for survs who just did their only objective in a proper way. But killer Mains wouldnt ever admit that cause they only care for ez wins."
The killer objective is to KILL survivor.
Protecting gens is a way to achieve that, not THE "objective". (Otherwise 3 gen strats would be a smart idea, praised by the community, right?)
And if Noed triggers, it's the survivors(!) fault for not doing their objective properly, because they ignored TOTEMS. If survivor ignore their 2ndary objectives (totem), they might get punished for it by Noed getting activated.
And last but not least, how is Noed an "ez win"? Does it in any way draw the survivor towards the killer or anything that I missed? The killer still has to find them, chase them, hit them, hook them, right? Maybe he needs to do this with multiple targets, while he has to defend the gates and eventually the hatch and of course the actual Hex. So I fail to see how this is an automatic "ez win".
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I don't consider NOED an EZ win other than the speed boost is kind broken on certain killers and if combined with the uncleanable totem spawns. Like I said before it's fine and if anything it only needs some qol tweaks
I really need to save that stupid post.
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I understand your examples very well, its just not very good examples, since dbd is more complex than a cardgame. Cardgames have a single objective, while dbd has different objectives for both sides.
But continue your example of card games. If you have 1 life left, you lost 96% of the game, that is true. Given the state of the game, the opponent probably has the board while you have nothing left. You should probably lose next round in this circumstance.
And now you're all smart " you just activated my trap card. I didnt lose. It was all planned to almost lose. I win now." 200iq. You still have to lose in the first place
Know what good killers think of noed? Pretty useless most of the time. There is no lategame.
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Actually, weedrick, most would argue that if you *don't* end a cardgame at 1 health, you likely did not play optimally, because there is no gradient of win or lose, health is a resource. Utilizing all of your resources optimally, using that 29 health to soak damage so you can more effectively build your own board, is considered the optimal play.
In a game you never win or lose by %. Winning and losing are binary states. Yes or no, did you or didn't you. A killer has not lost when noed comes into play, and the end game exists, or the game would go to the tally screen the instant the last gen popped.
You can go to the "oh yeah, but *I* don't ever get to play the end game, so it isn't real" as much as you want to, but at this point you're just arguing emotion and feeling, rather than any tangible metric.
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Dude, this isn't a cardgame.
This is Dead by Daylight, where healthpoints from cardgames =/= generators in dbd. Sorry you lack the gamesense in dbd, even though you have one in cardgames.
If your gameplan revolves around losing the majority of the game to turn it around with a perk. Then you are too reliant on this perk to turn games around for you.
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So we can stop complaining about the no mither genrush builds now?
If the game ends in 5 mins, but you were injured for most of it. That's losing most of the game to win the end, right? Since health states are objectives/your life.
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My issue with it is that it's often treated as a band-aid fix for weak killers (Freddy for instance). People often use it in higher ranks to help secure a hook or two, but you can usually work around it. Get the totem or sneak around while the killer is elsewhere. It's more like adrenaline, really, imo and while it sucks when it goes off, it's something they use to help the user if end game comes. It's just a different build, like an end game build. Survivors have end game builds, too. And it isn't like it'll always go off or will always be useful to the killer.
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Same could be said about BT and DS, just a few examples
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You can make the killer play with only 3 perks if you
- cleanse the totems during the trial. They're not hard to find.
- cleanse the totem after the perk is active. Global map notification.
- cleanse the totem after the killer got one survivor down with NOED, save the person. You're making the killer swap one perk for one hook. Up to you to decide if it's worth it or not. Then, if the problem is that NOED rewards bad killers, you surely can rescue the survivor and win the chase vs a bad killer, right?
NOED can be used as a crutch, yes, but with the currently pipping system and how it works, it won't "boost" killers' ranks vs equally skilled or better survivors, it will actually punish the killer for being bad at everything else (gatekeeper, chaser, malicious and even devout).
This game is in dire need of secondary objectives. I don't think removing the incentive to cleanse totems is the way to go. I think we should add more incentive actually. I want games to be slower and more strategic without making gens take ages to complete. So if the team of 4 survivors flew by the game doing gens as fast as possible, I don't see what's wrong with more strategy and risky saves at the end. If they took the time to cleanse all the totems, the killer has more time to apply map pressure, but NOED does nothing at the end. I believe we should have more perks that reward the killer for having totems up by the late game and punishes survivors for neglecting them.
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As stated, there is no "losing most of the game" in *any* game. You win or you lose.
If you accept that, you will likely win more games of your own. It's exceedingly likely you're shooting yourself in the foot thinking the killer works on gens with his feet like some kind of anti-survivor instead of using all of the tools available to down survivors at all points of the trial instead of just the start.
If you want an in game example of sacrificing "health" for advantage in dbd, 3genning survivors is explicitly done by selecting and defending a three generator cluster on the map. Yeah, a killer will "lose 4/6 objectives" quickly and even intentionally, in your eyes, to get a significantly better position in the game.
This is using "health" as a resource in dbd.
Apparently "ne ga" as in a shortening of negative is a curseword?
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But thats exactly the strategy, that bad killer use. I plan to give up most of my objectives, since i get an enourmous power boost with noed just before i really lose.
Yeah, no ######### that works out well, that is because noed is so strong. That doesnt make you a tactical killer.
It is a perk that boosts you just before you lose the game. Thats it. Who benefits from it. People who lose more often. Aka bad killers
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I will use an example i wanted to avoid.
How much will noed benefit Zubat, Scott, Ryanpez, etc?
See, thats why bad killers and noed are related. Good killers dont expect them to make it to lategame.
its not directly related. bad killers and noed. But indirectly related, in that good killers dont use noed, which leaves the bad killers with noed.
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This clip is a perfect analogy to the way you view your argument:
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I can see why you wanted to avoid that argument.
Yes, for some specific streamers, they choose to leverage other perks instead. Perhaps they think having a stronger and more consistent snowball in the early game is better for them, or perhaps they don't want people like you calling them bad killers for using noed in their chats or comments constantly. Who knows.
Because free will exists and lets us have things like perk diversity, as you have demonstrated. Wowee.
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Funny thing is almost no good killer used noed. Tons of free wills, all decide to not use this perk. Is it shame? Or is it calculated? If it only activates ~10% of the games.
The more you win, the less use you get out of noed. Can you see, why a good killer doesnt use noed? And conclude, why the average noed user seems bad and boosted? Doesnt mean you're bad. But you're not confident to win. The target group is slowly forming...
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You can ham on this appeal to popularity as much as you want to, but I would still hazard their lack of noed has more to do with their viewers whining up a storm over it and calling them bad killers 24/7 than anything to do with the perk itself.
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There are streamers who use noed. They're mostly bad though. But that is all subjective going from here.
Let me rephrase my argument: Do you think its worth it to use noed, if you win 9/10 games before the last generator is done? If not, what the winrate where you would stop/start using noed?
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Generally, yes.
My thoughts on that is "If I can 4k this group of survivors with 4 perks, I can probly do it with 3"
In those instances, noed is insurance in case the game goes poorly or unexpectedly.
The consideration is "can I win 9/10 games with three perks instead of 4" and if the answer is yes, there is no real reason not to.
Generally if I do slot noed it goes in place of ruin. It plays a similar role of punishing genrush, but contributes more consistently than ruin, in my experience.
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You know, i can understand that pov. And see good reason for it. Its the one good reason to use noed i cant deny. Similar to an accident insurance.
But personally, i can not look at a dead perk all the time. If its useless most of the time, i'd rather turn it into something useful all the time. Also, at some point, you really have to question wether another perk is better. Even in the 1/10 games that you lose, the fourth perk could have been Spirit Fury which may have won you the game before the gates are powered. And is the 1/10 game noed win worth it playing with 3 perks for the other games?
You dont seem stupid, you should understand why noed and bad players are related, even though you disagree.
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There are a lot of reasons for that.
Most of all, noed just feels viscerally good to use. When you've been having a series of frustrating chases against better survivors, beinf able to catch up to one and smack him so hard he goes instantly into dying *feels* good.
It's usage may be motivated more by catharsis then a meditated thought that "noed will carry me to a better rank"
And I do feel "bad killers" are much more likely to be frustrated in this way and, likewise, vent that frustration with noed.
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That last sentence hit the nail. You had that gut feeling about noed before, if i had to guess. You know why people look down on it.
If you like it and it calms you, keep using it. But be prepared for the shitstorm like using an instaheal. It just triggers people on the other side.
I actually like noeds effects too. No one escapes death, great name and atmosphere when its on. If it was built-in for the lategame rework, i would appreciate it. Built-in noed would be less problematic than perk noed imo. With a totemcounter for survivors, it could just be the secondary objective we need. just my 2c on noed, i dont hate it, but it doesnt feel right as a perk rn.
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NOED is the exact same as SC or DS, a tool to be used that comes with risk and rewards.
When you use NOED, you are actually crippling yourself for 90% of the match, taking up a perk slot for an ability you may not even use, either because of a 4J, hatch escape, or all totems cleansed. Even if the perk does activate, it can either be cleansed or only get you a Survivor or two.
I do agree with OP though. A Killers job is not to defend the gens, it's to sacrifice Survivors. It's in a Killer's best interest to protect the gens, but the match is over when the last Survivor either escapes or dies.
The Killers job is to kill. The Survivors is to survive.
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That is rather the point of the thread, though. Helping people understand that noed has legitimate use and isn't *just* that frustration tool.
It is unfortunate the lategame and the perk that generally defines it are stigmatized by the community.
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Survivers only have two objectives: First: Gens. Second: Exitgates. Totems are not their objective. So now again: NOED punishes survs for doing their objective. Get it? Not? Your fault. Dont complain.
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A bit unfortunate, but i blame it on noeds and old ds activation time. They punish you for succeeding. Nothing worse than chasing a good looper and finally getting him, before getting DS'ed at 35%. Here's your reward for wanting to complete your objective. Stab
Same with finishing the last generator. The reward for finishing your objective alive is... a burning totem that exposes everyone.
Both perks feel antirewarding for the other side, which is my main grip with them. You want to progress your own objective, but DS/Noed punishes you for it.
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Fair enough. I do think just making noed a passive effect of killers, baking it in fully to the endgame, would be beneficial.
The totem counter for survivors as well.
"If any totems survive until the end game, the killer gets a big buff" is an interesting game dynamic, generates a secondary objective that doesn't necessarily slow the game down, and silences the frustration crowd since, at that point, it's just a part of the game.
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Right, it wouldn't feel bad then. Kinda like current DS vs old DS. Its just that salty edge of the perk that punishes you for doing well, that creates salt.
Rumours has it, that the lategame is getting reworked soon. Maybe noed has a healthier place in that meta
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Fingers crossed, and thanks for helping make this discussion a nice one.
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I'm going to bookmark this thread for future hilarity. It's been quite the amusing ride, ladies and gentlemen.
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@ThirdSealOPplzNerf Not having every perk active all the time is extremely common and certainly not as “not easy” as you make it out to be.
A killer isn’t getting any ingame benefit out of BBQ if all survivors are within the radius or have hidden in lockers. Playing with Spies rn is like playing without a perk. A killer isn’t getting any benefit out of Bloodwarden or Remember Me if he/she kills all survivors before the gates are powered. The same is true for NOED.
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https://clips.twitch.tv/ShyPeppyCroissantKappaPride =) LMclean thoughts today
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I think that NOED is a fair counter to a SWF team rushing generators when you're playing someone like Freddy, but in solo queues against default Megs it's completely unnecessary and a petty way to win.
I still don't use it against SWF teams because when you're playing against a team you shouldn't be expecting to win with a weak killer, especially at rank 1. Just play a better killer or dodge the lobby (although dodging is kind of petty as well considering the extensive wait times).
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this OP just makes me lol. the killers main objective is to prevent survivors from escaping right? right. so how do they escape? repairing gens......so if you allow 1 gen to be prepared.....you're technically failing at your objective since repairing generators DIRECTLY TIES IN TO THE SURVIVOR ESCAPING............god.....big brain on this killer main guys. wow
NOED does reward bad play. whether that bad play is being looped by 1 good survivor the whole match or whether its allowing all of the generators to be completed. you killers literally cry about everything, for this conversation i'll mention one specific thing you cry about.
you constantly cry about how "wah wah my totems are so ez to find man these survivors keep cleansing my ruin etc so ez" but when you get what you asked for, which is the devs moving your totems to harder, tighter spots on the map so they cant be located as easily.......even when you get your wish your answer to NOED is to "cleanse" totems lol. totems are scattered god knows where now and it's even more of a waste of time locating 5 of them let alone wasting time cleansing them when it's getting even MORE difficult to get gens repaired with each and every patch.
you killers literally cry, get what you want and then cry about how it's not good enough rofl.
decisive got nerfed into the ground literally and NOED wasn't even touched let alone some other BS perks.
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Goodness, someone didn't read the thread. Let's get to addressing these points, then.
The killer's objective is to kill the survivors. Nothing more and nothing less. After 5 gens are done is defined as "late game" and a killer aiming to improve their killing ability in the late game is not playing worse by that decision making then a killer looking to stall the early game with ruin or other plan of approach they have.
People complain about totems because they are currently bugged. Ruin will always spawn in the same spot on the same maps. If you know where/how totems spawn you can kill ruin within 30 seconds on any map you load in, guaranteed.
It's a problem.
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@EqMonkVeeshan do you care to post a larger clip that shows that he was actually being faceous? Or are you going to defend this out of context clip? It is against forum rules to post anything that is false or inaccurate. Your clip is designed to create an argument, which is also a violation of forum rules.
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go watch his vod if you want to see for your self. I clipped it because I wanted to show a few friends what he had said. as I told them, if they want to hear the whole context of it they are more then welcome to go check out his vod as well.
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I would argue that NOED certainly doesn't award good play most of the time. Occasionally you get the person who runs NOED, got a few hooks, maybe a sacrifice or two before NOED is triggered, then yeah they might deserve that NOED. The person who either doesn't protect their gens well enough, on top of getting almost little to no hooks/sacrifices I would argue doesn't deserve that NOED.
I think if NOED worked on a token system it'd seem more fair. Maybe tied to gen protection or hooks/sacrifices.
People like to argue that totems are the game's second objective, but if the killer doesn't have NOED or a Hex totem there is literally no reason to do totems. They give you a little bit of extra BP and that's it. If the killer doesn't have NOED then you're basically wasting time for nothing, which is in the killer's favor, which is why survivors genrush. As others have said before if you make totems count towards emblems/pipping then more people would be willing to do them. Make them an actual second objective instead of an obligatory one. Give solos some sort of notification that other totems have been broken (doesn't need to be a totem counter, could just be sound or part of a perk, possibly a buff small game to include a totem counter or smth idk).
Otherwise yeah people are gonna keep complaining about NOED.
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