http://dbd.game/killswitch
Regarding Tombstone and Tombstone Piece
We all know the community doesn't like tombstone in its current state, and even in its previous state. I thought of a couple ideas for both of these add-ons that I've gotten positive thoughts about, so I'll take a shot here and show what my thoughts were.
Essentially, keep the ability to kill, but require all survivors to at least have a hook state before you can do so, maybe change it to 2 hook states if it still sounds a bit too strong.
Comments
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"The community" meaning a certain vocal minority.
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I'm kinda on the fence about Tombstone tbh, because in a lot of ways Tombstone can be pretty unfair to the uninitiated; even as a veteran, there are those odd moments where you just mess up/have to bite the bullet and get caught with a Tombstone...
However everyone with any time in DBD knows Mikey COULD have it, and especially if you see him taking a long time to stalk, you know not to screw around with it, and that makes Mikey quite fun, scary and paranoia inducing in of itself.
It's bit like the killer side equivalent of Decisive Strike... they might not have Tombstone at all… but you get certain smells to indicate that they might have it... and that's pretty fun.
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I think Tombstone Piece is fair. I think Tombstone as a whole isn't, I'd just as soon rather it only work on second hook like a basekit Iri Mori.
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There's nothing fun about being stared at for 3 minutes with no chases and then having to 3v1 cuz someone got """outplayed""" by tombstone
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Deleting Tombstone Piece, and reworking Judith's Tombstone to only work on survivors who are on death hook, while removing the speed nerf, and allowing Myers to mori both standing and downed survivors (To remove the ability of survivors to deny the mori by using the lockers) would be much healthier and fair.
Post edited by ChainsLogic on-2 -
There's nothing fair about being taken out of a match by a single purple addon.
Especially when the """counterplay""" to this addon is letting Myers win the chase for free, JUST IN CASE he has it.
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This is about as old as DBD. Meyers is too weak. But he can't be buffed so long, as both tombstones (especially tombstone piece) exists… But he needs buffs without those addons
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Fun is subjective first and foremost.
My case for why Tombstone can be quite fun and engaging is:
- To start charging Tombstone Mikey has to get out of t1, which gives an audio cue to the whole team, so its not like Survivors aren't made aware Myers is in play.
- The mere existence of Tombstone means you need to pay careful attention and fear Myers stalking you, whether he actually has it or not. This makes Myers inherently intimidating, even if he isn't a particularly strong killer, which is great for the horror theme.
- A Myers using Tombstone has a long charge time, and if EW3 hasn't popped for a long time, that is quite scary once you start to suspect it, cause you don't know when it will pop.
- You have counterplay in the form of lockers and ofc the fact Myers is still an m1 killer at the end of the day, who must stand next to you actually mori you, so while very dangerous, standard gameplay mechanics counter him.
If your teammate feed Myers it can be unfun, but Myers is the best thematically realised killer in the game, and he is actually quite popular for both sides, and has been for years, despite not being very strong.
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"Counterplay in the form of lockers"
You mean "Let the killer win the chase for free or risk dying instead."
That's not good game design nor balanced in the slightest. Especially when you consider what perks Myers is likely running - Tombstone piece can be ran with 4 slowdowns easily which means even if you do the """counterplay""" congrats you just fed him a free pain res dms grim embrace eruption or whatever
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You don't let the killer win the chase for free though... you don't just hop in a locker and let him grab you. You use the locker when you know you're caught, and won't make it to another loop/tile... Mikey is an instant down killer, so if you're caught, you're caught, you only locker hop to ensure he can't Mori you.
I would argue that in DBD, no matter the killer, we all know at some point you as survivor are going to get caught, and the chase ends, this is a fundamental truth of DBD. You simply can't loop the killer forever, because the game would fundamentally break if you could. Thus, your hook stages are resources to be used as the survivor team, such as if three players are on death hook and there is one with no hooks, the one cannot stay hiding and only working on safe generators... that player has to work on valuable objectives and draw killer attention any way they can.
In Myers case, rhe locker hop is that last step to use when you've run out of all other options. By successfully looping the killer as long as possible before you hop in the locker, you have wasted all of Mikey's time stalking, all of his time on his EW3 trying to mori you, and if you did enough, you've also made him have to start a new round of stalking, wasting more time.
I'm not gonna claim it's perfect design or anything, but teams of decent survivors don't just roll over and die against Tombstone, there are things you can do against him, and Myers has to win m1 gameplay without a lunge to actually Mori you.
He is a pretty popular killer...there are a lot of survivors who do enjoy playing against him... I'd at least argue there are more players who enjoy facing Myers than there are quite a number of killers.... even when you consider Tombstone... so take from that what you will.
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Just because the gameplay is thematic doesn't make it the most unengaging way to play the game. You either get instakilled or be forced to give hook states to not die. It's not fun, you don't get to chase whatsoever cuz the Michael won't attempt to attack at all and it's just uninteractive
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Yeah tombstine bring some horror back to dbd. Just recently my swf versed mickey who we suspected having tombstone piece as he took so long to get Tier 3 and we played it safe going to lockers etc. But after game he didn't even had it was just newer player.
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I still don't understand why so many killers get major nerfs to addons, because they raised kill rates by too much, but Myers still gets to keep the Tombstone addons, and the Tuft of Hair addon.
Are we honestly saying that Tombstone Piece doesn't raise the kill rates by more than 6%?
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2 words
Haste perks.
If Myers has pwyf you literally cannot loop him normally and have to let him win chases for free. PWYF is balanced by it decreasing when you swing and tombstone/locker grabs ignore this.
Again my point never was that good survivors can't beat Tombstone, my point is it's a completely busted addon that makes playing against Myers a chore because any time I face one there's always a good chance it's Tombstone piece since why wouldn't you run it when it can single handedly win you games.
I highly doubt any survivor will say they enjoy being taken out of the game early by a single purple addon
This just reinforces my pov, you and your team had to play worse on purpose just in case the Killer had these addons and they didn't lol.
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If you don't take tombstone, you need to be way better then survivors to get at least 3K. If you do bring especially tombstone piece (and whole build around it), you need to be potato compared to every single survivor to not get at least 3K.
Those addons are really unhealthy. I would absolutely not be surprised if they did 20% kill rate differential or more in at least soft cap.
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Its common sense that tombstone nneds to go.
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I mean fair enough, I'm not saying you're wrong in your assessment of the ability... but what I have been continuously saying is you cannot tell people what they can and can't find fun. Fun is subjective, and all I stated at the start was that while I do acknowledge it can be unfun in certain scenarios, and unfair to players unaware of the threat, it can also be quite terrifying, exciting and fun as well.
I've tried to avoid using anecdotal evidence, but I for one have found many games against Tombstone Myers highly engaging, and have some genuinely terrifying moments and genuinely hilarious moments as a result of playing against tombstone… one such example involved a Myers steaming around the corner of Shack while in EW3 with Undetectable, and me literally panicking as I barely made it to shack pallet to save my life, which I only managed cause I literally saw a shadow go past a tiny gap in the wood by shack door.
I've also had games where I was genuinely impressed by a Tombstone, because I played against a Myers who stalked extremely well, fast enough for me to not be sure if he had it or not, and him not Tombstoning anyone for several hooks... after so many hooks I dropped by guard and went for a body block to save a Death Hook teammate... only to eat a Mori instead... and I genuinely burst out laughing.
It's perfectly fine for you to not like Tombstone... but you or I don't get to tell people what they find fun. I can admit sometimes Tombstone Myers is sometimes very frustrating and boring... but there are other times I've had very fun, exciting and memorable moments against him that I wouldn't have had if Tombstone didn't exist.
So as I said originally... I'm on the fence with Tombstone.
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Oh my intention isn't to speak on behalf of everyone, you're always within your right to find it enjoyable
My point is, probably a high amount of people don't find dying to a single addon to be fun or engaging. I don't dislike Myers as a whole I just dislike having to play around an addon I find to be completely broken and I know many many others do as well. Even when you counter it and 'win' I struggle to find that engaging because the Killer wasn't actually chasing people or playing the game, rather they were just trying to mori someone and couldn't.
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