http://dbd.game/killswitch
Why is almost everyone on forums here againts re-working M1 Killers
So help me understand since dead by daylight is an asymmetrical game or tries to be and is marketed as one, why do you people hate when people suggest reworking M1 killers with no mobility to have an ability that helps them have hybrid mobility to match up equally with M2 Killers who rely on their abilities to have an edge on both large and small maps.
I see people down voting posts left and right without even inputting their opinion why the post is so bad why is it so bad that some killers get reworked to have the ability that wont injure survivors for them but to help locate them easier to make up for the mobility M2 Killers have.
I would like to understand it better again since the people that do comment on reworks say stuff like:
"This is totally off what the licensed character does in movies"
"So you want to re-work killers with stable playrate pickrate"
Like this has to stop this is a very toxic mindset that does not help the game go in right direction.
Either the people who are like this are aware of the killers are a joke to them because they still want to have games where they can loop them finite amount of times
Or people are in general oblivious and say that the killer does not need a rework because the killer just does fine by running "certain addons + perks".
So just because 1 playstyle almost always guarantes a win on M1 killers the killers dont deserve a rework that can help the game feel more asymmetrical than just a meta chaser game?
Again i just want someone to explain to me the logic because logic is not logic apperently and people just seem to settle for what has been in the game for few years now and it just "worked'.
My best assumption is that im just in minority of people that refuse to play myers with tombstone because its not fun but it does make it very lethal it can turn tables in favor for myers.
Im more of a variety build myers myself but everyone seems to just take him for granted whenever you are not playing the meta build for him.
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if every killer gets teleports and map mobility we can revert to old map sizes instead of trying to shove 7 gens in the wendy's parking lot, right? because the whole rationale for making maps tiny and terrible was "muh m1 killers".
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Because Killers shouldn't be funand rewarding to play. They should be Survivors' punching bags.
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Funny you mention teleporting, i never mentioned devs to rework m1 killers with teleport ability?
There are some high quality rework suggestions that get downvoted but are really mind blowing and would make the game much more asymmetrical than the current design for killers.
Giving teleport ability to m1 killers wont fix anything, but actually giving them a hybrid unique ability which still makes them primarly M1 killers.
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I mean yeah but we are entering an area of balancing which needs a total rework of killers again, because just touching one side of the game will break the other side thats how bugs and fears come true for players that are in fear of devs ruining the fun in majority of killers because harsh reality is YES they function as intended and they are viable to play only the set of addons to make them lethal lets keep it at that, but that is just so wrong when a killer can be played in a different way like myers for example.
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i'm fine with there being some m1 killers w/o mobility but for example pig they destroyed her traps to make her more chase oriented so all that tells me is we deserve dash killers
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Yeah im very sad to see what they have done to the pig, its honestly my 2nd played killer due to how fun and chaotic you can be with torturing the survivors by just ambushing them with traps.
The whole dash thing is a no no.
I made a myers rework which would make him be like omnipresent evil that lurks all across the map as he does in movies he is always there somewhere and can ambush you from anywhere
But to get back to the topic i would want us to work together to spread awareness about not being scared and fight for whats right and asymmetrical for the game and playstyles
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I'm not against it per se. But i think that at a systemic level, it needs to be adressed that like, half the killer roster is just unviable, with only like 3-4 viable at the highest level.
I don't think you need to just "buff m1 killers" you need to basically buff killers as a whole, while nerfing the top tier killers that will benefit most from those buffs.
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I think many players enjoy m1 killers, it's more fun to me I only play Wraith/Legion/Clown, new Freddy is pretty good too… they are a bit weaker but far from unplayable
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That is my point, and i think we can all here agree we are living in "fear" of some sort that devs might ruin them even more, but if we dont try to spread awareness whats the point it will always remain 3 or 4 killers at high level, and in casual levels people will just stick to mostly ONE certain playstyle with them to get a win because again this will loop around everything thats wrong with the game like how people feel rewarded by playing the games, match queue times etc.
What is really needed is some sort of voice as a whole to have a period of time where devs as a whole connect with us in real time spend like full week on forums giving advice and their POV's and feedback their thoughts.
Right now we have surveys which are not really 1 to 1 experience we really need.
I would say as game has in game events there has to be some sort of event or time period every month or anually where devs + community teams + users sit down and talk (not literally) but in a form of constant attention a break period of their vision.
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I'm sure that if killrates begin to suffer for any killer, M1 or not, adjustments and buffs will be made as they have been for quite a few killers for awhile now. But everyone's idea of a "rework/buff" is also very different. Some people only consider mobility a worthwhile buff, others lethality, or full stealth etc. There's also the case of the killers identity being massively changed for the sake of a rework too. I mean, Freddy just got a rework not too long ago, but many are still not too happy with it, so reworks are quite a tricky thing to pull off especially when eveyrone has their own idea of what a rework *should* be.
I personally think we have enough maps in the game now that instead of limiting or trying to rework killers, that the maps are tied to certain killers depending on their mobility and strengths/counters. I don't believe that most of the roster of m1 killers would struggle if the maps were an appropriate size for their distance (and I believe the stats reflect this as well). Maps have a huge impact even with certain killer powers that are restricted/counter relient. Like if Blight gets put on Lerry's, that puts him at a significant disadvantage. Or if Trickster is put on Coldwind, where counterplay against him is heavily relient on RNG with having tall structures. I think maps could be the key to good balance, both for killer quality of life and survivors. Put the hunter in the right biome you know? A cheetah isn't gonna be as lethal in the mountains as it is in the savannah, but that doesn't mean the cheetah isn't strong.
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I would say legion is pretty decent for me im really happy with what i can accomplish in a match no matter if i draw or win its always fun chaotic i manage to hit high grades have decent performance almost always.
Wraith is wraith i personally dont run him much, he could probably get a rework to make him feared more due to his cloaking make it so his ability throws off all users across the map by thinking the shimmer is him but its not (im just doing brainstorming rn for him)
Clown has been worked on, honestly playing him was pretty balanced but did not try newest changes due to being on ps5.
Now freddy, oh boy, freddy, back in the day he was one of those killers that you would clench 24/7 but now devs made him be more seen by playees than before where he would be lore accurate to movies and appear in dreams.
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Very true, to high extent it is the map variety that matters a lot, the maps should be way more linked to a killer and their playstyle but then you will probably get handful of players saying that makes the matches way too obvious its a mobility teleport killer if you get large maps, and for m1 killers that get indoor or smaller maps.
There is way too many variables where you kinda come to a point and realize you need to either match m2 killers to m1 capabilities or match m1 killers to m2 killers to reach optimal balance.
As much as it would be fun to have ghoul on largest possible maps and spread out gens, it will get repetitive and you can always guess if its dredge, ghoul, springtrap or other killers.
Again its up to discussion thats why we are here, my take on it is that we should fight for awareness to try and match m1 killers to m2 capabilities not with giving them dash or teleport rather something to give them a hybrid edge like give them something to fear againts not go like "oh here comes michael lets run it back to a loop"
Freddy used to be one of most feared killers he literally gave you adrenalin out of fear
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I do understand the immediate way you can rule out what killer you're up against depending on which map, but to be honest this can happen in so many different ways and is often "spoiled" almost immediately with a first injury. The box if its pinhead, clocks if its Freddy, Traps if its pig, Traps on the ground if its Trapper, Kagune mark for Ghoul, Infection for Plauge, Mend for Legion etc.
And while true, it would give you an immediate indication of wether or not this killer is a mobility one or not, that's still a massive ammount of killers it could be, before they're revealed by the first injury, terror radius, secondary objectives etc. There's 40 different killers in the game, and 49 maps, 20 realms so, I feel we have enough killer variety and enough map variety that it wouldn't be too much of an issue. The game at its core is extremely repeditive anyway, to be honest. I believe that variety is relient on perks, as the game will always feel the same if you always play with the same things.
Just my personal opinion, but I don't think there's any good reasons why killers or survivors should be automatically put at an advantage or disadvantage by maps. Maps should be an even playing ground that keeps in minds that killers limitations, counters, and strengths. Especially when we have this many, and the number is only getting bigger.In any case, thanks for opening up your discussion and sharing your thoughts :)
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Cheers, i appreciate your time for writting your own thoughts and takes on this too!
I do agree that the player count grows larger, a lot of players filter out in and out, many new different playing styles too from new people too.
I myself bought the game ages ago in 2018, i also played when freddy got first released and that was very scary experience, blood pumping and the cold feel that he can see you but you cant see him until you fall asleep and such.
I do wish we get reworks that will bring the og feeling of how game changing killers can be if given them a power role (in a good way not ghoul way)
I will also love to test out if they do make maps dependant on killers, there was also a post about selecting map selection which maps you would want to be placed in the most and which ones not.
Rocket league has a similar system where you can dislike and like maps you enjoy playing, this can be implemented as well for users but it will obviously increase Q time.
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Devs make strange changes in the first years of the game they nerfed many things that didnt need that because they feared to make big dchanges and decisions, now they make some good killers with strong powers,stop bullying killers like billy and nerfing pig for no reason, trying to make game more healty and giving survivors more ways to counter strategies like slugging and tunneling and for some reason looks like they are scared but they shouldnt be after so many years of practise they are not buffing weaker m1 killers and now nerfing them like last ptb nerfing clown and knight for no reason (they are maybe annoying to most of the player base but that shouldnt be relevant for the healty state of the game) and buffing a-tier pyramidhead (he needed some love and he wont get everything from ptb to live I know that but why limit so much clow and knight). This is something I never will understand it took them six years to buff mayers and he is still at the bottom so licence right wasnt problem (now only I can think about is pinhead who is little bit getting weaker and after phase 2 he might fall a bit down in tier list) like they would be scared for no reason they make good reworks like billy and making killers like ghoul (now he is more playble against but the first version was mess) and then they refuse to buff killers like ghostface (he got many skins so licence isnt problem), trapper (they want him to be weak), knight,clown,demo maybe they will wake up after phase 2 of all anti changes to killer and maybe they wont so these killers will be rare like hag,artist because there wont be reason to play them.
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I haven't seen a bunch of rework suggestions being panned. While imo any killer sitting below B tier needs looked at, that needs to be done with care. You don't want to lose what makes that killer different. You risk alienating the people who already love that particular killer. There's also the concern of making every killer have a dash some other mobility based power.
In short weaker killers need help but it needs to be handled with care.
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Thought i made a pretty clear view how i see ghoul as, when it comes to nurse and blight, i had my fair shares of outplaying them on a avg scale of my matches that i played againts them they cant compare to my loss streak againts ghoul.
I think if you ask me and my statement is pretty bold and i will be asking for too much by saying this and its to bring m1 and m2 closer to one another and not like one side has to match other?
Not sure if that makes sense but the devs should make them meet a middle ground to the point where majority of killers can be A tier (even in wrong hands) but can still be outplayed if in wrong hands.
Again i will try not to get the post shut down by a mod because i am talking about ghoul since there is many posts but i do not like him as a killer at all, hes given every tool and mechanic at hand.
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I am also very unsure why myers still has only one viable lethal play in his disposal which is as we all know permanent ew 3 + kill one tap potential but that is honestly unfair for him to have only that (not as in he should have more options to insta kill) but more like making his mirror addons viable, giving him an actual ability that haunts the entire map
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I am very much up for S tier to be removed from basically securing you S tier out of the box.
I think meeting in middle ground with majority of them being A Tier potentially being S tier in the right hands by utilizing perks as well only should still be viable, after all you still need skill to use perks in your favor.
My question for you right now is and for @thrawn3054 to check out my post for myers rework, it keeps his current ability by making it more of a passive stage phase ability rather than his ability ability, and then adds ability that doesnt really give him capacity to make him overboard lethal rather so it gives him that boogeyman vibe going on like in movies, he is being slept on his potential honestly.
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It's an interesting idea.
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Obviously i suck with values thats up to devs to decide and balanace around.
But you get the point for other killers too
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I'm a firm believer no killer should sit below B tier. Every killer should stand a fair chances against average survivors.
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But some people don't want to play dash Killers. Don't they deserve M1 Killers that feel good to play as too?
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I'd agree we currently have too many strong Killers and probably should reign in A and S tiers a bit. It's not very healthy to have Killers that feel overwhelmingly strong to play against; something has to give here.
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i'd argue the opposite the reason why everyone is flocking towards to a and s tiers is because the others aren't viable against good survivors and no one really likes losing. so in order to have more killer viability i'd rather we buff killers to that lvl 1 so they don't get power creeped into irrelevancy lile right now and 2 dragging every killer down to trash tier doesn't really make the game more fun it just makes playing survivor even easier and killers in general have to sweat even harder every match to get decent results
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Well the answer isn't to buff everyone to A tier any more than it is to nerf the strong ones to C tier. The former isn't fair to Survivor players, and the latter isn't fair to people who Main those stronger Killers.
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Some killers should be harder to use or more basic because challenges are fun. Huntress, for example, is super simple, yet people that are good with her are unstoppable. I've been hit with hatchets from across the map or through tiny gaps. It's hella impressive when someone is good with the more basic or difficult killers. I have a ton of respect for people who are beasts with, say, Trapper compared to some mediocre Kankei who gets 4k with zero skill.
You mentioned killers with strong add-ons. If such killers got buffed, those strong add-ons would need a hell of a nerf. Myers in particular has bonkers add-ons, and many of the people who use him probably wouldn't respond well to those getting nerfed.
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I assure you there is more important things to do than give more killers insane mobility. Each Killer is already faster than the Survivors, and the Killer with high mobility already make it feel unfair for the Survivors, as there's not much you can do against them. If they improve the Survivor experience then I'd be all for buffing a few of the weaker Killers, but until then no Killer should be buffed or nerfed.
Post edited by kosaba11 on2 -
This isn't a bad idea at all. It could even be simplified so that each realm has 3 distances that are altered depending on who's playing.
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I dont think anyone is against this, it's more that people think there are other matters that need addressing first. The devs acknowledged in the anniversary stream that they've spent alot of time addressing issues with killers and they need to focus a bit on survivor. And before someone points out that not every killer got changes, let's look at it realistically - there are currently 39 killers in the game. Changes take time and resources, have to be run through PTBs (and if feedback is bad have to be thrown back on the drawing board), plus they have limited bandwidth when it comes to updating the game, so they can't actually put through alot at once. If they continue to put their time and resources into killer changes, where would they fit in time to address survivor issues? And survivor absolutely needs to be thrown a bone, particularly solo queue.
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Hey, thanks. Yeah, I think there’s plenty of potential there for small adjustments or variations of maps. I think it’s kinda crazy how sometimes it’s not if the killer is more skilled, or if the survivors are more skilled, it’s just the map lol. Maps should be an even playing field.
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BHVR really should have made map size dependent on the Killer or class of Killer. Killers with high mobility needs larger maps and Killers with next to zero mobility need smaller maps. The game will never be balanced having the same map sizes for Blight/Nurse/Kaneki and Trapper/Doctor/Really any M1 Killer.
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Yeah i am also up for that +1
As you probably know i just main myers, scratched mirror jumpscare build and it feels very rewarding on indoor and small maps but its like pain not fun at all on large so making it map dependant would be a big plus, plus if devs do remove tunnelling and proxy camping from game then this would be good idea to implement for people!
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it actually is the answer since 1 the only reason why survivors actually lose is they do something that isn't a gen and also get stronger over time due to perks/qol buffs + killer nerfs
2 the people who main those stronger killers will either play them anyway or swap killers to something stronger just like people do now and survivors will get more killer variety
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I agree. It's a better investment of time than the new maps we get as well, which are less than ideal let's say lol
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Would be really nice for m1 killers to get like small + indoor maps to somewhat avg maps but never large ones, and same goes for m2 to get large and outdoors and rarely indoors or small
That would really reward players honestly
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I'd be more than willing to give it a shot.
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No it really isn't the answer.
We don't need more Blights, Nurses, and Ghouls. They're not fun to play against.
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I'd be for trying this out, certain maps being out of the rotation for certain Killers.
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I don't think everyone is against this but I personally dislike the idea of buffing everything to the same level, be that killer or perks.
Not every killer can be S tier and not every perk can or should be popular or meta and I think them constantly trying to buff everything is a mistake, as it just creates an absolute mess of new metas and unexpected new ways to create misery for the other side.
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My bad i meant to say meeting killers at middleground instead of making m1 like m2 and m2 like m1.
Either way give m1 killers a unique ability that makes them still be m1 but have some sort of mobility that being something that they can place around maps that helps them get notified of activities and such
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Maybe because some of us enjoy M1 killer gameplay?
You have many M2 killers, so play those. Not every killer needs to be popular using mobility and anti-looping powers.the killer just does fine by running "certain addons + perks"
That's kinda main puporse of perks tho… To help with your killer's weakness.
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we'd have less of them since every killer would be buffed to a tier since more killers are viable at a higher level you have less reason to use blight and nurse and just pick a killer you like
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Probably because they don't need reworks. Just buffs to their existing kits.
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I can see the point that it feels like a standard M1 killer design is being power crept out of viability as a playstyle. M1 killers are becoming more rare and often come with a form of Special attack anyway, like HoundMaster's dog or Singularity's Overlock (Clow's bottle or Knight's Guards). A classic Trapper or Ghost face power both seems unlikely to see from the devs these days and unlikely to get past B tier in the meta (all the more reason to give more love to the older killers)
Mobility isn't the solution in my eyes because it comes off like a bandaid fix to this problem. Rather than making it so M1 killers stand out and compete in their own unique way, just give them a mobility tool it's a hard meta these days. In all fairness, I have a similar issue with so many modern killers being designed around mobility or teleportion because it feels played out, but a lot of those killers have decently unique ways of traversal with only a few that feel extremely samey (Springtrap can jump scare but his doors still feel very similar to Xeno's).
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I do not want to play at the sweaty high level, that gets old fast. I also do not want my Dredge, Ghostface, and Nemesis reworked just because they aren't FOR people who want to win super hard and play a Dash Killer. I want them to stay where they are, with the same kits they have, getting fair balanced buffs and tweaks that keep them the same but make them better. I do not want any of these Killers, or anyone else in my roster, reworked into different Killers, because that would kill MY enjoyment of the game. The reason I play THESE killers and not the stronger dash Killers is because I like these ones the way they are. I don't like those stronger Killers.
I can't be alone in this. There is nothing wrong with some Killers being different, weaker, or playing older kits. Killers like Pig, Trapper, and Doctor don't need power reworks - they need to be made more balanced so they can win, with enough skill and time and effort, at any level of play.
If the problem is viability the solution is not a power rework. It's giving them something their kit might lack, such as a slight mobility or more info or something.
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Thats what i just said regarding mobility it can come in different forms and shapes.
Doesnt have to be that ghostface (who is a human) gets supernatural powers that would let him teleport or dash.
I was mainly refering to something like a rage passive ability like adrenalin surge flow state that makes m1 killers faster in mobility or just give them info that would also boost their mobility but not in that sense more like a set motion of how likely they can do their rotations compared to m2 killers who use teleport like abilities or dashing/flying.
Like i think honestly people take michael very lightly more of a joke when they verse him because a "good skilled player" can loop an avg myers player with ease until gens pop decent amount.
I think michael lacks some sort of ability similar to mirrored illusion that he can put up as a killer it shouldnt be a perk or an addon, he SHOULD get that because he is baba yaga, boogeyman he is pure evil, he is supposed to be one of those killers that should be able to haunt the entire map and make everyone in lobby experience paranoia, yes he makes streamers and occasional casual squads but the higher u climb as a killer (which is way easier) the tougher opponents that dont play into that they play into looping efficiently.
So i suggest for myers ability like that or at least a passive thing that makes him bloodlusted the more he is in chase with a survivor by default the speed will increase from 4.6+ and rise to certain cap that helps the killer end the loop.
It should be balanced so it wont take too much time off of killer and also not take too little where looping becomes pointless.
It wont change anything because people still play ghoul, spring, vecna.
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