http://dbd.game/killswitch
Franklin's Reversion?
For anyone who hasn't seen the post at the top of the subforum, we have successfully gotten Streetwise killswitched! However, tomorrow's hotfix will also bring a charge system to Fog Vials, and so, with that, Franklin's old effect can now hit all 6 items. Would you want to see a reversion for Franklin's Demise to fit this, or would you rather keep the old Fog Vial? Let's discuss it here.
Comments
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I mean, they could, if they want to. But I dont think many people would actually care, since it is not like Franklins was a popular or good Perk to begin with. They can reverse it and it would not really increase in usage.
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While I do think Franklin's needs a secondary effect to be a complete perk, I don't think it should be reverted and I don't think that has much to do with Fog Vials.
Franklin's Demise has basically always sucked to play against, and it's also never really been all that good either. This is a golden opportunity to change the secondary effect to something hopefully a little more healthy, and a little more useful. Just going back to old problems doesn't fix anything.
I'm not sure exactly what it should look like, but one idea I've been tossing around is that the secondary effect reads like this:
- When survivors pick up their item, that item is blocked from use for [X] seconds
This applies equally across item types, isn't nearly as destructive, and is arguably more useful than the old charge-draining effect since it's meaningful for more than just medkits. It'd probably still not be all that fun to play against, but to be fair, your opponent's tools are probably meant to be a tiny bit annoying sometimes.
That or something else, it just shouldn't be any of the old effects. They've never been good for the game by basically any metric.
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I don't know if they're going to revert Franklins... I mean, the only thing they said is that the vials won't have unlimited charges anymore. I don't use the vials, they seem useless to me, but from what I understood, what they currently do is take a while to recharge. But the rest of the items (keys, maps) will have the same new charges. That is, like these, the vial will now have limited charges (probably 1 to 3, at most 5). The easiest thing to do with the vials and Franklin would have been to have the vials be destroyed once on the floor and the items would continue to decrease their charges. But they didn't do that and changed the way these items work. I mean, they no longer discharge based on time on the floor; they would have to find another method in the system to reduce the discharges. In any case, if they do that, it would make sense to revert the use of keys and maps as well. It's complicated; in my opinion, the vial should never have existed. As an event item it was fine because it was powerful but required an effort to obtain, but since now it is bought in bloodweb and that's it, its use in the game is not even effective.
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Franklin's was the only counterplay killers had to items lol.
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well time to debate with someone i know
if it were solely up to me? franklins does not need to regress. obviously rn charges are a sore spot but the regression portion of franklins is one of those things that are strong on coordinated teams and then devastating on solo q. there are very few rather strong items that i can understand players being wary of (syringes, multiple flashlights in a swf, full toolbox bnp swf) but its in my opinion that if youre not at the highest level of play you have no way to determine if that is what you will be facing. thus, this leads to an issue of how severe franklins is to a survivors strategy is directly correlated to how intensely they are playing the game, and like a lot off things the off meta or "bad" player is punished more. someone brings a chase build with a syringe and loses it? well they lose a free heal, maybe in chase maybe not. someone brings an unhooking and healing build and lose their medkit, coming back to it after one hook and its empty? well that just puts a major wedge in their whole plan.
and the argument ive heard is for survivors to just "use their perks" which boggles me even more. i can see someone telling a champion of light user to bring residual manifest as insurance, sure, but flipping the issue to be "if survivors want to use items they should play around franklins and assure they can loot the items" is both A) not ideal and B) not viable because the killer still, in fact, would have franklins. i just think this one is a weird tightrope to walk because if it does regress objects with charges, then it takes next to nothing to delete them entirely from the game and minimize the plans of survivors. if it doesnt have regression, it doesnt work as an effective item counter against good survivors, and thus feels useless.
i think this is one of those cases where alas skill divide and optimization makes it hard to place how this perk should be handled. leave it in a state thats bad for solo q and nice for killers? or make it less oppressive to give niche item users more leeway while killers get the short end of the stick?
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Franklin's was only halfway decent at countering medkits in particular, it's never actually been a good overall-item counter.
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At PTB it had a 3% usage and likely still have a 3% usage. More people are defending it than used it.
Better to throw reversions to Streetwise and Overwhelming Presence since it's all the same.
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A halfway decent counter is still better than… no counter at all.
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You have to consider the pre-PTB numbers, as we are discussing a reversion to pre-PTB Franklin's.
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For our 3 cents we'd like to see a reversion, but don't think it's particularly necessary. We're simple and greedy, we like stealing items, especially from wannabe bullies bring a bunch of flashlights. However if we set aside our feelings of more, simply making survivors drop items on hit is good enough.
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No, we gotta stop saying stuff like this. The real issue has never been about how good Franklin's is. The real issue is about how good some of the Survivor items/add-ons are. We GOTTA stop fixing base game issues with perks. We gotta get to the root.
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This I wholly agree with, but until they get to the root, asking for a quick reversion to a perk used to counter it is better than letting it slide unnoticed.
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To medkits?
Well, they're used for healing. Any good anti-heal is going to work on them, as is Broken and most chase tools that mitigate being healthy to begin with. You've also got No Quarter which seems purpose-designed to screw over medkits and not do much else, and honestly Franklin's still works for adding time to a self-heal with medkits since they have to go pick them up off the ground.
It's kinda moot though, I'd rather bring counter-picks to the really strong healing tools over medkits. Something like Gift of Pain to catch Resurgence is much, much more potent imo.There's already potentially better stuff than old Franklin's for this, and there was before too. The only real benefit Franklin's had was it being fairly brainless, just slap it on and you don't have to think about it any more.
But, y'know, like I said myself a bit further up- Franklin's should have a secondary effect. It just shouldn't be that secondary effect.0 -
Then feel free to use Franklins in every game if they revert it. Totally worth running it over an actual good Perk, trust me!
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yeah this kinda sides with my issue with it. since syringes and bnps and flashlight harassment is as strong as it is, its really on the killer to assume that if they see and item, they should assume its the best possible version of the item and immediately prepare to counter that. if any medkit could be a syringe, theyre effectively all syringes until the trial is over. if the concerning items werent as strong, killers may reach for more specific item counters instead of the item droppy button.
aside, i think what could be an alternative that doesnt run into the new charges issue is if franklins went back to being based around not being able to pick items up instead of regressing them. if say, hypothetically, franklins inflicted a status that prevented you from picking up items for 20/30/40 seconds (random numbers) you could still get value out of stopping survivors from using items, where as good survivors who went back for their items after winning a chase or getting hooked dont just get a big nothing burger. this would also buff its combo with weave as moving items into a corner would be harder.
just thinking out loud
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I did use it before it got changed. Constantly. And it worked GREAT for me lmfao.
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Most anti-heal perks are god awful, which is the problem and why franklin's is the only real counter.
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I don't think that's true, I think they just tend to be designed with a more specific purpose.
For instance, Gift of Pain is a fantastic counter to Resurgence and We'll Make It because it activates after the unhook and, critically, punishes use of those perks as much as it weakens their effects.
By contrast, something like Forced Penance is really good at punishing altruistic bodyblocking because it stops that survivor from being able to heal up afterwards, leaving them vulnerable; this is one use of medkits that it's good at countering.
Then something like Coulrophobia is great for interrupting heals, since being in the terror radius makes healing such a hassle it's not worth doing. If you've got good information tools and/or game sense, it's quite potent.
Things that cause Mangled or something like Leverage tend to be great at delaying heals since survivors are inclined to wait it out, giving you more time to get back around to them.So on, so forth. Franklins' only strength in comparison to these is that it was passive. Hit a survivor, they can't use their medkit as effectively anymore. Low effort, but comparatively low impact too. It's not like they can't heal after being hit, and if they had a syringe they still get to use that too. They just get fewer uses overall.
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I was honestly baffled at the changes, yes keys being usable without addons is huge but maps are now completely useless for all 3 people that really liked their old features (including me). This might be "new thing bad" syndrome but I really wish they'd reworked map addons instead of maps themselves. I suppose freeing up your WoO slot is big but the people who like WoO will just keep using it and the people who liked maps will have to use Clairvoyance now. Even then, Clairvoyance is inherently weaker and totem munchers will be forced to use Detective's Hunch (which is fair enough actually, totem munchers are really annoying for hex builds). I could live with the new charge system or giving maps fewer seconds of use but they essentially took an addon nobody cared about anyway and made it the ONLY use, which is really dumb. Buffing that specific addon would've been way better and everyone would be happy.
Edit: I forgot there's an addon for totems. Oops.
Post edited by Zephy on0 -
Why are people acting like Franklin's was never a good perk? It has been a core part of almost every M1 killer build I run with sloppy butcher or a sloppy addon if applicable. I am versing 3-4 medkits almost every single game on average and simply having a medkit drop for a second is enough to make them worth one less heal. Sloppy + Franklin's helped dramatically with medkits and the ridiculous 4 second resurgence heal off hook.
As an added bonus, it completely shut down flashlights, and possibly a toolbox if you find that person first. Items are insanely powerful, removing them (even partially) from the equation makes a huge difference and was often the sole reason I win games. Now it's gone, so ig back to Blight by Daylight.0
