just want opinions on this measure to reduce tunneling.
I just had this idea, let me know if it has any legs or I just had too much free time at work.
to be clear, the anti-tunneling and anti-slugging stuff should still happen in some capacity. this is just addressing what I think is a common concern for killers that leads to tunneling.
As we know, the longer the trials go, the more favored is the killer. assuming survivors are being put on hooks. since hook stages are the survivors only limited resource. (ignoring items and perks because they don't matter to this point)
but, sometimes the game goes by too fast, and killers feel like they need to get someone out of the game to slow things down and have a chance for a 4k. I assume that everyone who played killer at some point has felt this.
this leads to tunneling.
so here is my proposed change.
nothing happens until 2 gens are left and there has been less than, say, 6 hooks. (also, no deaths)
at that point, survivors get a small debuff to repair speed. Don't wanna calculate numbers, but it means that the 4 survivors work at a speed that would equal 3.5 survivors.
then, if 1 gen is left, the debuff makes it so 4 survivors work at the same speed as 3 survivors.
the debuff ends immediatly if one of 2 conditions happen.
1- 6 hooks. (because at this point, at least 2 survivors are on death hook. so it should be ok… I think)
2- Someone dies.
this makes it so getting someone out of the game afap is less atractive, since it would be almost the same as leaving everyone alive with the debuff. And also, the remaining survivors would have more hook stages left.
my expectations are that killers won't feel as pressured to confirm a kill, and might even want to use the debuff in their favor to spread more hooks before losing it.
I made my case. It's basicaly an incentive to avoid killing someone too fast. Opinions?
obviously dealing with 4 survivors instead of 3 is always gonna be harder on some level because numbers, but if the issue is how fast the game goes, I think this would help.
Comments
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.125 speed decrease to gens per living survivor then it turns to .25 per living survivor or its 1/8 speed decrease to a 1/4 speed decrease
math done :)
but yeah I agree with would actually work pretty well and its not super OP as its automatic slowdown but not half speed or a full halt
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yey math. it's great but by god do I just not wanna bother with anything beyond simple addition sometimes… 😅
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How would that reduce tunneling? Tunneling would be exactly as effective as it is now, no?
It would also introduce weird situation where you downed survivor, but hooking them would stop the slowdown (7th hook), so it's bad idea to do it unless they are deadhook. So basically slug everyone until you find dead on hook survivor, because that's only logically thing to do.
I said it in different post, but any basekit slowdown should be in my opinion connected to killer's action (mainly hooking), so it feels rewarding and killer can notice the effect and also play around it.
Basekit pop/pain res would be in my opinion less hated than just slow gen speed, because it's not deserved and boring.this makes it so getting someone out of the game afap is less atractive, since it would be almost the same as leaving everyone alive with the debuff. And also, the remaining survivors would have more hook stages left.
It's not only about working on gens. That alive survivor can also unhook, heal others, take hits, be in chase…
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many people tunnel because they want to slow down the game. if the game is already slowed, you are trading 6 for half a dozen. this is just for the cases where the killer is too far behind. Not for a killer tunneling at 5 gens.
It would also introduce weird situation where you downed survivor, but hooking them would stop the slowdown (7th hook), so it's bad idea to do it unless they are deadhook. So basically slug everyone until you find dead on hook survivor, because that's only logically thing to do.
your logic does not follow. at that point, 2 people are on death hook. just start killing people. it's much easier than slugging everyone.
and of course, did you skip this part? "to be clear, the anti-tunneling and anti-slugging stuff should still happen in some capacity."
I'm not saying this is the only thing to change and everything works now. why are you analyzing this in a vacuum?
I said it in different post, but any basekit slowdown should be in my opinion connected to killer's action (mainly hooking), so it feels rewarding and killer can notice the effect and also play around it.
A killer that is getting hooks does not need the slowdown. The ones struggling to, do. It's supposed to be a catch up mechanic, so tunneling is not necessary anymore.
Basekit pop/pain res would be in my opinion less hated than just slow gen speed, because it's not deserved and boring.
so, good killers get better and bad killers get to cross the map on foot to maybe kick a gen…
"Deserved"… dude. seriously? The entire game is built on people getting something they didn't "deserve". You are just used to them existing. They are there to make the game better, being "deserved" is not relevant. Either it's good for the game or it's not, this is the real thing people should focus on. instead of some arbitrary worthyness of it all.
boring I will agree on. it's not particularly interesting. but again, we should judge things on if they are good for the game or not. Do you have an actual reason for why it's bad besides you don't like it?
It's not only about working on gens. That alive survivor can also unhook, heal others, take hits, be in chase…
did you actually read what I said? "obviously dealing with 4 survivors instead of 3 is always gonna be harder on some level because numbers, but if the issue is how fast the game goes, I think this would help."
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your logic does not follow. at that point, 2 people are on death hook. just start killing people. it's much easier than slugging everyone.
But what if I find and down someone who is not dead on hook? It simply wouldn't make sense to hook them….
What if I actually want to 8 hook on purpose? How does it make sense to punish me with "antitunnel" feature, where I am doing exact opposite of tunneling?
"to be clear, the anti-tunneling and anti-slugging stuff should still happen in some capacity."
If killer won't be able to fix it by slugging, then the issue is even bigger and killer gets into lose lose scenario.
Why are you analyzing this in a vacuum?
because I am trying to find flaws of the system? Something devs should definetly start doing…
so, good killers get better and bad killers get to cross the map on foot to maybe kick a gen…
Did you skip part, where I said pain res as an option? Which would be better imo.
boring I will agree on. it's not particularly interesting. but again, we should judge things on if they are good for the game or not. Do you have an actual reason for why it's bad besides you don't like it?
Your system has situation, which is likely to happen, where killer gets punished for hooking survivor who is not dead on hook.
And also happy you agree it's boring way to handle it. I think it should be better try to make this feature more interactive close to what devs tried, not something that is simply going to happen, but it reflects players actions.
Funny is your feature would get active even if killer is actively trying to tunnel someone, but simply failed to do so quickly, because that's definetly going to be less than 6 hooks.
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What if I actually want to 8 hook on purpose? How does it make sense to punish me with "antitunnel" feature, where I am doing exact opposite of tunneling?
If you can afford to… doesn't that mean you are doing well already? I don't see the issue here.
If killer won't be able to fix it by slugging, then the issue is even bigger and killer gets into lose lose scenario.
… fix what? you can hook the person. you are doing ok at that point.
because I am trying to find flaws of the system? Something devs should definetly start doing…
but this change wouldn't exist in a vacuum.
Did you skip part, where I said pain res as an option? Which would be better imo.
I saw it… remember how it the perk was gutted in the ptb? I doubt they are giving it for free. but it would be better than pop.
Your system has situation, which is likely to happen, where killer gets punished for hooking survivor who is not dead on hook.
And also happy you agree it's boring way to handle it. I think it should be better try to make this feature more interactive close to what devs tried, not something that is simply going to happen, but it reflects players actions.
Funny is your feature would get active even if killer is actively trying to tunnel someone, but simply failed to do so quickly, because that's definetly going to be less than 6 hooks.
I don't see the punishment. it's a catch up mechanic. the mechanic decided you caught up. (we can argue when you actually catch up, I'm not married to the specific hook count)
I get it, but the issue I keep seeing is the killer going "game is too fast, gotta slow down somehow.", and the usual answer is killing someone. It needs to be an alternative to securing a kill. Literaly slowing it down would do the trick.
nope. if someone dies it does not activate.
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nope. if someone dies it does not activate.
Killers don't always manage to tunnel someone before 1/2 gens. Survivors have option to prolong it, you can have decent chase etc.
And your feature would become active even if killer has just 2 hooks on same survivor and is currently chasing them, which I see as kinda fail for something claimed to be "antitunneling"…
It doesn't work for killer who tries to hook everyone, but it works for killer who hard tunnels.0 -
I don't want to reward killers for losing by having the game catch them up.
Right now, tunneling is a choice killers make if they deem it necessary, and survivors can play as a team to counter it.
There are a few problems:
- Solo survivors have too few tools to coordinate and work together to counter the killer unless they're just absolutely cracked, which is bad for more casual players.
-The killer choosing to do this at the very beginning of the match can cause some matches to end too soon for one survivor, which feels bad. Just as bad as when survivors play in the most boring way possible and finish gens in 5 minutes.
-The game does an awful job showing survivors as a team role, where even if one survivor dies, the important thing is for the team to make it out. I think most people consider a win for the killer to be 3 or more killed. So It's absurd that a win for survivors is escaping, instead of 3 or more out.Ideally we should give survivors team based tools to defend themselves against the killer, and we should reward killers with enough power for doing well by not tunneling that they don't feel they have to.
If we safeguard killers for playing poorly, by slowing down survivors automatically, that's bad design.
If we safeguard each individual survivor for playing poorly and give each of them a million tools to deal with the killer by themselves, that is also bad design.0 -
you can never fully prevent tunneling. giving examples of edge cases is not a point against it.
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giving examples of edge cases is not a point against it.
Killers wanting 8 hook games is edge case?
Killers hard tunneling is edge case? If it's edge case, then tunneling wouldn't need to be changed.Your mechanic has nothing to do with antitunneling, it's basically catch up mechanic with no benefit for survivors unlike 2v8 version, where it works for both.
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- Solo survivors have too few tools to coordinate and work together to counter the killer unless they're just absolutely cracked, which is bad for more casual players.
not relevant. I'm not addresing survivor coordination here.
-The killer choosing to do this at the very beginning of the match can cause some matches to end too soon for one survivor, which feels bad. Just as bad as when survivors play in the most boring way possible and finish gens in 5 minutes.
That's quite the tangent here…
-The game does an awful job showing survivors as a team role, where even if one survivor dies, the important thing is for the team to make it out. I think most people consider a win for the killer to be 3 or more killed. So It's absurd that a win for survivors is escaping, instead of 3 or more out.
I didn't make the mmr system of 4 1v1s…
Ideally we should give survivors team based tools to defend themselves against the killer,
did you… not read what this thread is about?
and we should reward killers with enough power for doing well by not tunneling that they don't feel they have to.
killers doing well don't need extra help. Which is why I took the approuch of helping a killer that is doing bad.
If we safeguard killers for playing poorly, by slowing down survivors automatically, that's bad design.
If we safeguard each individual survivor for playing poorly and give each of them a million tools to deal with the killer by themselves, that is also bad design.
These two may sound like it, but are not equal.
The killer is the entire opposite team. while a survivor is only 1/4 of theirs.
one mistake impacts one side a lot more than the other.
also… gonna need more than your opinion on it being inherently bad design here.
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someone failing to kill someone until 1-2 gens left, is. that is what I'm talking about, that is what 80% of your post was talking about. I don't see how you missed that.
if a killer does not feel like they need to tunnel, they won't. If you fail to see this logic, there's nothing to talk about with you.
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if a killer does not feel like they need to tunnel, they won't. If you fail to see this logic, there's nothing to talk about with you.
That's not logic, you are just naive.
Catch up mechanic would at no point stop killers from tunneling and definetly not make it feel good for survivors.
Killer is tunneling? Oh, it's same as before for survivors.
Killers failed at tunneling, or is just struggling in general? Oh, slow gens… nice
This is simply not better for survivors at any point. Slow progress builds (Forever freddy) were always hated a lot by survivors and you want it as basekit mechanic.
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like I said. nothing to talk about. You basically did the pancakes thing…
this is about killers catching up on a lost game without needing to tunnel… why are you expecting me to buff survivors in this?
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Ok, you get me here. I had this post in my mind as anti-tunneling alternative to PTB.
It's just catch up feature, which is not something that would reduce tunneling. You want example in practice? Look at 2v8…
Gens get slowed down there if killers are losing, yet it's still better to tunnel survivors and is usually done.But I would say my other point stands that you are trying to give very hated mechanic (slow progress) basekit, which simply couldn't end well.
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do you agree that some amount of killers tunnel when the game reaches a certain point that they think was reached too fast? (a.k.a. 2-1 gen left and very few hooks, also 4 survivors alive)
and then, do you agree that if those killers didn't feel like they had to kill someone to have a chance, that they would tunnel less?
reminder, this isn't about the guys tunneling from frame 1. Whatever anti-tunnel behaviour comes up with, is whats supposed to deal with that.
This is for the killers who want to avoid tunneling, because they understand it's boring, but that also want to win the match and therefore will tunnel if they feel it's needed.
so, assuming you answered yes to the questions, do you really not think it would reduce tunneling?
But I would say my other point stands that you are trying to give very hated mechanic (slow progress) basekit, which simply couldn't end well.
can't argue here… it would probably not be received well at all.
but, by reducing tunneling, it would be an improvement for everyone overall.
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do you agree that some amount of killers tunnel when the game reaches a certain point that they think was reached too fast?
Yeah, I usually try to get survivor out of the game around 1/2 gens in general. Issue is when this feature happens at 1/2 gens left, I still need to kill someone fast. Later I kill them, more progress is done.
Killers who don't even want to reach low gens, would still play exactly same and tunnel early.
do you really not think it would reduce tunneling?
It would not make me change my playstyle at any point. If need I would still tunnel at 1/2 gens and your feature would make it easier for me to win after it, because gens have less progress.
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why did you skip so much?
Issue is when this feature happens at 1/2 gens left, I still need to kill someone fast. Later I kill them, more progress is done.
So you are saying that just the slowdown is not enough. It needs to do more. right?
Killers who don't even want to reach low gens, would still play exactly same and tunnel early.
Like I said. Not the killers I'm aiming at.
It would not make me change my playstyle at any point. If need I would still tunnel at 1/2 gens and your feature would make it easier for me to win after it, because gens have less progress.
you still are at 1-2 gens left with few hooks and 4 people alive. you are not getting a free win. just a slightly longer game than normal.
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lol
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