The Continued Destruction of Haddonfield's Loops
I just played a Haddonfield match, and I was wondering since when were massive wooden boxes added to some of the truck tiles to further help killers win mind games on already unsafe loops? Is this yet another one of those undocumented changes that help killers (as if they were struggling on that map to begin with)? Another change that give killers this false belief that they've "gotten no buffs" since there's no documentation or communication to signify its addition.
Please communicate with the community about every map and tile change in detail. There is literally no reason to silently add these changes. At least let the community playtest the updates on the PTB before pushing them to live servers.
Comments
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Because the car loops on haddonfield were some of the safest on the map to run? They had VERY little mindgame potential for the killer. Especially that dump truck loop. The only really weak car loop on haddonfield was the police car in front of main.
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Are you calling them safe compared to the pallet that spawns next to the 1 foot wide tree? Or the 1 foot wide hedge in the corner of the map? As any killer, you loop the truck twice and force the survivor to throw the pallet, oh the horror. This is exactly what I mean. Oh there's a tile the killer is ACTUALLY weaker at? That provides a miniscule amount of safety for the survivors? Nope, let's nerf it and not tell anybody. Just like how they removed one of the bus windows on autohaven and just left a hole in the side instead. At this rate, every shack will have a breakable door and no window, and killers will still find a way to complain about shack.
The trucks are mindgame-able, and that's not even mentioning survivors getting stuck on broken collision because the game engine is running on duct tape and a dream.
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Lets be honest most pallets on haddonfield are playable to an extent. "1 foot wide tree" is a very major stretch if you run the pallet correctly.
You can NOT tell me these "have counterplay" other than just use a better killer, blood lust or kick pallet when the survivors have LOS on you the entire time making mindgames entirely meaningless.
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Haddonfield got an increase of pallets but also reduced a bit of the ultra safe loops.
Fine by me. Not every map should be saw map with 90 God pallets.
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The dump truck is already a line of sight blocker. Both trucks are susceptible to a simple stutter step mind game. That is besides the point. Not every pallet needs to be unsafe, especially in the middle of haddonfield, which has always been considered a massive dead zone after the rework. Your definition of playable must be "one loop and throw" or "force a killer stun." The only decently strong pallet on haddonfield is in the bottom of basement house. More than half of the killer roster have tools to shut down all of the loops you provided. Just because Myers is weak on his own map doesn’t mean the majority of killers are too.
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Not every killer is scratched mirror Myers on autohaven. Survivors need a few good pallets to even have a fighting chance of getting a 2 escape against most killers.
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The dump truck is NOT an LOS blocker simply maneuvering your camera down under allows you to easily see the killers feet from under it and if not its full of EXTREMELY safe check spots with the gaps between and the corners having cut outs allowing you see farther than an actual corner.. A "stutter step" mind game doesn't really work against good survivors. I've seen survivors loop there for upwards of 60 seconds against some of the better killer players. And you can not say the pallet in house of pain is "decently strong" it is a god pallet against most killers.
Trust me just because a pallet takes actual attention span to loop doesn't mean it's weak.-4 -
If a survivor is looping any of those loops for more than 60 seconds, it is a skill issue on the killer. You assume every survivor plays perfectly at every loop every time. That's simply not how life works. Take everyone's favorite killer blight. Those pallets are gone in 5 seconds and are absolutely unsafe.
If you are balancing the game assuming the survivors are a 4 man swf comp squad and the killer is scratched mirror Myers, you're not going to have an accurate lens to consider balance changes for this game.
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So we're supposed to assume killers play perfectly at every loop every time, but we shouldn't assume survivors play perfectly at every loop every time?
And if killers don't play perfectly at every loop every time, it's a "skill issue". But if survivors don't play perfectly at every loop every time, it's expected and BHVR should help them out?
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When did I ever say killers play perfectly or use that assumption in my post? Legitimately all you have to do at either of these loops is turn your brain off and hold w in one direction and force the survivor to throw the pallet. That's 15 seconds TOPS for the only pallet in a massive dead zone.
Besides, the original point of my post was having these changes be known and tested before getting pushed to live.
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You said it's a "skill issue" if killers weren't playing the previous loops perfectly. Why aren't you also saying things are a "skill issue" if survivors weren't playing the previous loops perfectly?
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Won't a lot of this change next chapter? While the tunneling and slugging changes won't come they didn't say the deadzones won't be.
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It's a skill issue if you can't force that pickup truck pallet to be broken within 60 seconds. At that point, the killer is TRYING to prolong the chase.
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They will also make a lot of maps a lot smaller.
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What did you think was going to happen, when survivors demanded for maps to have less dead zones? Did you expect BHVR to just add more pallet and loops, and keep all the existing stuff the same?
In order for dead zones to be removed, the existing pallets and loops need to be made less safe. That's how map balancing works.
And I still don't understand why people feel the need to complain about weak loops and pallets, but never complain about loops and pallets that are so strong that killers have zero counterplay and zero meaningful interaction. If loops and pallets are supposed to be "more interactive", that means the stronger loops and pallet should be weaker so they become "more interactive" too.
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This is not a zero sum game for balancing. Besides, the map is one of the most killer sided maps in the game. It's "the game" for killers. The reason people are asking for less dead zones is because there were ZERO pallets to begin with. Again, half the roster have abilities to counter almost every loop in the game. I'm sorry but balancing the game assuming every killer is running trapper with 0 perks but every survivor squad is a 4 man comp squad is how you arrive at that conclusion. Some tiles need to have strong pallets because killers like blight, oni, spirit, wesker, kaneki, etc. exist. Besides, calling those tiles strong to begin with is laughable to say the least.
And again, my whole point was for the devs to communicate these changes. Not to silently add them without any indication as to why. I'm sure if you added up all the undocumented changes the devs have done over the years to aid killers, you'd get a list twice as long as any meaningful survivor buffs. Remember, there is still no official patch note saying that surge causes you to scream if you're repairing the gen that erupts. Just to put that into context for you.
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Those arent deadzones by their definition. Those are useless loops. And such are not changed. BHVR at its best again.
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So like I said earlier. If the counterplay to the pallet is break pallet, blood lust or use a killer with a better power then that doesn't make it super counterable and to add on, a healthy pallet. Place a Myers, ghost face or sadako there and suddenly that loop is WAY stronger.
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Take godrock in exsample they arent one of the longest loops but they are safest more than many long loops why? because they are supper safe you see killer basicaly 99% of time he chases you there and there isnt no mindgame that can be pulled only dum bruteforcing the loop its same fun as chasing bot on any highwall loop same as chasing someone with wallhacks no mindgames, very little need of skill to loop and very safe.
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Praying they don't do any more like the new Eyrie variant. That map is so boring and feels so pointless.
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That's the issue here. Most killers aren't Myers, Sadako, or Ghostface. Balancing the game to their level is why this game feels horrible to play as a survivor because more than half the roster can start and end a chase in 30 seconds.
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You shouldn‘t have your hopes too high
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Haddonfield is way less killer-sided, than Badham is survivor-sided.
- Haddonfield is still really obnoxious for the killer to patrol
- It can be really obnoxious to find a survivor that pre-leaves an indoor generator because the houses have so many line of sight blockers that the killer often doesn't know if the survivor is still in the house or if the survivor left
- If the killer doesn't have good map mobility, then outdoor survivors will just run straight for one of the houses, because the houses have so many line of sight blockers that it can be really obnoxious to find the survivor. And I know people don't want to hear it, but fog vials are extra annoying in those houses, because of the super high number of line of sight blockers.
Like, I really don't think you realize how annoying those houses are for most killers.
Also, I don't know why you're acting like undocumented changes are 100% always in the favor of killers. Sometimes killer nerfs don't show up in the patch notes.
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Real. 😭
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We can definitely weaken the strong loops, for sure.
But bloodlust will have to go.
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Tbh i think any killer will take that trade deal anytime.
If you need bloodlust just to get a hit on a survivor then you are already losing the game.
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That can happen right after "pallet chaining" is removed from the game. That's when survivors just run from pallet to pallet, playing everything as safely as possible, and many M1 killers have zero meaningful interaction until all the pallets in the area are gone.
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Give me 3 undocumented killer nerfs that weren't immediately reverted after killers complained about them.
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So your solution is to remove all good tile chains so killers like nurse, blight, spirit, oni, wesker, singularity, huntress, etc. can have even more of a cake walk when they play?
The lowest effort solution is either nerf the top 50% of killers so that their power level is on par with trapper for those changes to be valid, or buff the bottom 50% of killers and buff the maps accordingly to compensate for survivors.
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The solution IF bloodlust is to be removed. Bloodlust is still in the game because many of the killers need it.
And your lowest effort solution doesn't make any sense, because the power levels of killers can vary wildly by MMR range. For example, Nurse is kind of trash at average MMR, but really good at high MMR. At Dredge is really good at average MMR, but kind of trash at high MMR.
It never made sense to have only one tier list for the entire game, and I think it causes all sorts of problems.
- Spirit's directional audio used to respect audio occlusion, then got changed to ignore audio occlusion.
- Blight used to be able to object slide while looking forwards, and then a patch was released that required him to look all the way up or down, which meant he couldn't see survivors while object sliding
- Blight used to be able to object slide on just about everything that looked like a flat wall, and then a patch was released that made it so he would bump off of tiny window frames in the walls. In fact, for a very long time, he could slide off of every flat-looking wall, until RPD was released, because some of those walls are actually shaped like Ruffles potato chips, and Blight would bump off of the Ruffles.
- Various patches would change the maximum angle that Blight could object slide, before the slide turned into a bump.
- Blight had turning nerfs that were never recorded in the patch notes
- Audio occlusion was buffed by a lot, and it used to be much easier to hear survivor noises behind a line of sight blocker, even if chase music was happening
- Scratch marks were heavily nerfed for a super long time, and there was a long period of time when BHVR kept changing scratchmarks over and over
Post edited by Coffeecrashing on-2 -
Bloodlust only helps killers that dont use power, if killer gets injure/hit or breaks something wall/palett or uses his power bloddlust resets so all you are saying is we should make loops less safe agaisnt all killers but still nerf most m1 killers which are those that use and need the bloodlust the most.
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All of blight's deliberate nerfs were in patch notes and discussed at length on the forums.
Spirit gains more bugs every patch than loses. Those are just another set that are not fixed yet.
Scratch marks were eventually fixed and were actually buffed in their most recent iteration.
It seems like more than half of your "nerfs" are physics interactions. The devs have upgraded unreal versions multiple times, and it would make sense for unintended physics systems to break in that process. Those are not intentional on their part and are most likely just bugs.
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Skullmerchant butchery, hillbillyes overheat these are maybe documented others might be nurse nerf in 2018 or what was it when she had cleaning animation after blink hit and then went into fatigue, chucky nerfs no one asked for this and they were hard this only proofs his last nerf which was reverted in next ptb because not only killers complained but many survivors too and it meant chucky player base will be same as twins, every nerf is kinda documented but some were understandable others were random for no reason or super overdone like sm and these ptb antitunnel changes as well if they went live I guaranree you all weaker killers pick rates would drop drastically and stronger killers pick rate would go up. No one smart will tryhard as ghostface trying to win in mission impossible when there is blight who is more comfortable overall in all categories or ghoul, no one who plays casualy and doesnt try some insane chalanges as win with all killers using limited perks and addons or none of them will play them mainly.
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- Actually, you're super wrong. They were deliberate Blight nerfs, but they weren't in the patch notes, because the patch notes are never expected to be 100% comprehensive.
- No, you can't just dismiss the Spirit nerf. It was 100% intended because survivors complained her directional audio wasn't good enough for them.
- Scratch marks were nerfed for years, so yes that counts as nerfs that weren't "immediately reverted"
- Why aren't you commenting on the audio occlusion itself, which is STILL a large killer nerf?
- The biggest undocumented nerf, is aim dressing being able to steal hits from the killer, because it makes proximity checks based on the killer side, then forcibly changes the killer's attack because of the proximity checks, and then afterwards does hit validation on the server side. And it has been YEARS since this started happening, since server validation started years ago.
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All of those were discussed on the forums and have patch notes.
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Since the majority of your comments were about blight, I'm going to assume either a) you are a blight main, or b) watch content creators that discuss blight on a regular basis for you to know exactly when and what happened to blight's physics changes. I will also work under the false assumption that you have read every patch note in their entirety, read every forum post and comments from official sources, and can perfectly recall all information.
- If they were deliberate blight nerfs, how can you tell without a patch note? If it was discussed on the forums, then there was intention and thus a communication between the community and the devs. If there wasn't, how can you with 100% certainty claim the changes were deliberate when you do not know the intentions of the devs? Furthermore, as I mentioned, since the majority of your concerns were physics based, it is more likely it was an engine upgrade that could have broken those. You can't just assume physics based updates are deliberate when the devs are working with an external game engine that they do not own.
- Again, how can you tell if it was deliberate without a patch note or communication? I am also 99% certain there was a patch note describing directional audio.
- Your scratch mark comment was too ambiguous then. I had assumed you were talking about the 2 or 3 month span when scratch marks were bugged a year or two ago, but then they were quickly fixed and are more consistent now.
- Audio occlusion is also engine based. I thought that would have been self explanatory, but I suppose not. My same line of thinking follows for this as well.
- This wasn't in your original list, but killers have wanted hit validation and this was the implementation. This wasn't a deliberate nerf to killers, it is a new system that has its issues. Yes I wish it was better too, but it can hardly be considered a "killer nerf" even if you squint. Survivors 99% of the time get the short end of the stick with this system.
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There is your patch note for the Haddonfield change. It’s specifically saying pallets are being changed, and it’s understood that means the pallet loops will also be changed.
That’s all the patch notes need to say. You aren’t entitled to a full list of every single changed pallet and every single changed pallet loop, that exists in every single map that was changed this patch.Nothing is been “hidden” by these patch notes. Instead, you are giving an unrealistic expectation for the patch notes.
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And that 2018 nurse or wraith nerf for his speedboost duration from 1,25 seconds to current 1 second that are small nerfs. Every nerf has patch notes even the old ones same goes for survivors all you hint are shadow nerfs like 70 seconds hook stages for one stage from 60 seconds are shadow nerfs for killers especialy weaker ones so its not direct nerf to pig but its still nerf to pig.
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Sorry, but no. Reading that note for what it is does not mean that existing pallet loops will be changed. What part of "adjusted the quantity and distribution of pallets" gives you the impression that they will add line of sight blockers to loops that have existed for years at this point? I'm sorry but "it's understood that pallet loops will also be changed" is assuming something they never said. If it said "adjusted layout and distribution" then I could understand, but just "distribution and quantity?" Yeah, that's a no from me.
That's all the patch notes need to say
By whose opinion? Yours? If you are of the camp that believes ambiguous patch notes are fine, you are free to have that opinion. On the contrary, I'd like detailed notes and explanations, especially for changes that fundamentally change the gameplay loop. Simply wanting and asking for more detailed notes does not make me entitled, but you are free to think that way.
Again, there is still no official patch note or communication that surge causes survivors to scream. Of everything we've talked about, that would be one of the best candidates to receive a patch note for. Is your opinion on the matter of communication of changes "take what patch notes they're willing to give us and don't complain?" How is writing one line for "updated various loops to add line of sight blockers" or "updated surge so survivors scream" that much of a problem? How has our conversation shifted from your assumption that "blight had all these massive undocumented nerfs" to "you expect too much from the patch notes?" If those changes were documented, it would be a lot easier to make sense of it all, wouldn't it?
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The conversation moved away from Blight, because I wasn't going to put up with your ridiculous demands for proof. No, it is absolutely not acceptable to ask someone to list 3 things, and then turn around and say "NOW I NEED 100% PROOF THAT WHAT YOU SAID IS TRUE, AND IT NEEDS TO BE ACTUALLY PROVABLE PROOF".
Like seriously, that was an absolutely unacceptable follow up question. I don't owe you anything. I gave my answer, and I don't care if you like it. I don't care that you think every example is "not good enough for you".
Let's just be real here. You're going to be angry regardless of what anyone says. So just be angry. I don't care.
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I'm not angry at anything, I'm simply asking you to provide me reasoning for your assertions. How is it not acceptable to ask you for 3 things, and then question the 3 things you provide me? Am I supposed to just take your word for it, especially since there are no patch notes or evidence (before and after) that what you're claiming is true?
You're right, you don't owe me anything; but when you tell me I'm not telling the truth on something I'm discussing, it would be courteous to at least provide a rational explanation as to why and evidence to back that claim up.
I ask again: is your stance on communication of changes "take what patch notes they're willing to give us and don't complain?" It would be much easier to discuss balance and the state of the game if all items were tracked in official patch notes.
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