Honestly, I am done for now and I hope you are too
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And getting slingshotted back to the lobby two minutes in becuase someone decided to target the first unfortuante person they saw doesn't ruin the fun of others? Are we caring about other people's fun or aren't we? Because if we do, then tunneling is bad.
And if winning makes all things right with the world, then the bully squad will win when the killer ragequits. So I guess it's a winning strategy too.
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I'm saying we should either care about both sides, or no sides.
There shouldn't be this "one side's fun is way more important than the other side's fun"
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I mean, you can use tunneling for the same purpose. Bully squads are rarer, but there's genuinely not too much you can do. They are only really effective when there's a massive disparity in skill between the sides. You can fix the matchmaker, but that's really it. Its just a poor sap being thrown to the wolves, but the wolves decide they want to mess with the poor dude.
But let's be clear. If you use in-game mechanics to specifically ruining other people's fun, you're an #########, full stop.
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Now Im kinda sad these changes didnt came to live, all I need is little push to choose between blight,ghoul or billy I can still decide who to main but these have futere not like xeno,knight or legion what a jokes which will be stomped in higher mmr.
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Who the hell complains that killer is camping or facecamping survivor when gates are powered even devs agreed there isnt nothing killer can do exept try to secure last kill.
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Actually, there is something that can be done about bully squads. BHVR can make it more difficult to do excessive hook denial. And BHVR can make it more difficult to do excessive blinding and excessive stunning.
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But that's just a symptom.
The issue is the mismatch in skill. Similar skill opponents prevents this from happening.
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This is exactly what happened to me when I was new. I don't know why it even matched me with them but I got quite a few. I had no idea how to deal with it. I think partially they're not super common, and partially I just don't notice because they're not a big issue once you have a grip on the game.
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Lightborn instantly deletes any bully squad you come across. Problem solved.
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That prevention is never going to happen, because it has been stated multiple times that matchmaking is ok with sacrificing quality for time.
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I think there's probably a middle-ground
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If Soul Guard only pays off 1 in 50 for you, then SG isn’t the problem.
The teams that run it do so on purpose—FTP/SG chains, secound chance after second chance stacks, sabo/flash, down in palli, palli,.. "and now try.." bodyblocks. They don’t need flashy movement; they turn perk activations into time and force lose-lose states for the killer: pick up? eat FTP; leave? they reset and gens tick.
I’m not complaining—they use their tools, same as I do. And I’d genuinely respect a non-meta loadout with zero second chances. The catch: killers can’t see your perks at spawn. Good squads slam gens first and reveal the loadout later; if I don’t have pressure by then, “later” is usually too late.
So yeah—in my lobbies you’d still see tunnel/slug when the game state calls for it. Taking a foot off the gas is expensive. But u are not my lobbies then, different reality.
I’m seeing nothing but full-meta teams. DBD’s an arms race on both sides.
I agree… but … BUT: what do you mean by “bully squads”?
Flashies? Not bully. Sabo? feels cheap/annoying sometimes, not bully. Aggro loadouts to fight the killer? Not bully. Head On? Not bully. Down-in-pallet saves? Not bully. Down in the open with a flashy on-site? Not bully. “No respect” gen push in the killer’s face? Not bully. Gen-grab → flashy save? Not bully. Clean, well-timed bodyblocks? Not bully. That’s organized survivor teamplay — same as tunneling/slugging/whatever on killer side: pressure tools, not -toxic.Bully squads exist, yes — but they’re rare.
I mean the groups that derank on purpose, fish for newbie lobbies, go full-meta just to give brand-new killers a bad time, deny the objective and play only to tilt/DC a totally overwhelmed player. They don’t care if the server timer runs out or if they die — they want to derank and grief.or… even Rarer still: the ones abusing bugs/glitches. I sometimes ran into this lobbys, not much u can do then. (but they are abusing reportable stuff - so just report those).
Most games? Full survivor loadout played efficiently… or full killer kit used efficiently (slug, proxy, tunnel) = normal gameplay, not “bully.”
The only thing that’s usually toxic is the afterchat. Funny enough, most of the time, the teams people would call “bully” are the ones typing gg wp (even when they lose). The most toxic? Often the weaker squads that didn’t fight back much and then blow up post-game.
Sure, not always; but more often than you’d think.
y..
Slugging, situational proxy and hard tunneling are legit tools in a 4v1 — same as bodyblocks/flash saves/sabo on the survivor side. Elimination pressure is part of the design. Survivors have their toys; on killer, I have mine.
i mean.. if you plaster every frustrating edge with QoL, you sand off the friction, interaction, and challenge that create tension and skill expression.
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This may be a hot take, but I think it's because
NO ONE COMPLAINS ABOUT BULLY SQUADS.
How is this issue supposed to be on BHVR's radar when the only times this issue gets brought up is in response to survivor QoL?
Seriously, there's eight threads about 'gens too fast' for every instance that someone, anywhere, goes 'what about bully squads then?'.
BHVR listens to killers, but if the killers don't talk about it, they're not going to intuit what you have problems with. Go make a stink about bully squads if you want them addressed, don't just sit on it until you can use it as some 'us vs them' gotcha.
EDIT: Actually, double rant!
The reason the conversation is hardly ever about how the game should be less frustrating for killers is because when that topic gets brought up, it generally got resolved fairly quickly. When killers complained about not being able to hit-and-run, self-healing got nerfed. When killers complained about BNPs, they got nerfed. When killers complained about stealth, Distortion got axed.
It's hard to keep a sustained conversation about your issues when your issues get fixed all the time.
The reason we've been talking about survivor frustrations for 9 years is because, in those 9 years, nothing has been done to fix them.
Post edited by Firellius on5 -
I know it is endgame, but to prove a point to the guy that said "facecamping doesn't exist", when it clearly does.
Long story short, my teammates got rid of the noed totem, and we all got out.-1 -
When killers complained about excessive hiding, BHVR created a hiding prevention update, but survivors complained about it so much that the AFK crows got nerfed into uselessness. And the AFK crows are STILL useless, even though it has been months since that update happened.
People seem to forget that BHVR actually did consider excessive hiding to be problematic survivor behavior, and it was actually supposed to be addressed in phase 1.
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The reason AFK crows were nerfed was because they punished normal Survivor gameplay, just like the tunneling and slugging reduction punished normal Killer gameplay.
For example, did we need to search the entire map to cleanse Devour Hope? Get AFK crows. And what about when No Way Out had maximum stacks? There's nothing to do in that scenario but hide and wait it out. And yet we'd get AFK crows.
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So you were challenging me to not play like a bully squad, even though I don't normally play like one anyway? But sure, I'll do a stream without Soul Guard in my build. Just one more question: Are you challenging me to prove that I can win without meta perks, or that I can take losses? I take plenty of losses anyway, regardless of what perks I run.
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No. Gen ruah is the missmatch between the time it needs to get gens done and the time it takes do get kills. Gen rush is not only about repair perks and tools. Every 2nd chance perk, that prolongs chases or give you rescue, like DS, are part of gen rush.
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And the reasonable solution would have been to address the specific problem scenarios, instead of nerfing the entire AFK crow system.
For example, survivors don't need to have a massive grace period to find and cleanse totems, if the killer doesn't have any hex perks.
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Wouldn't it take years of dedicated coding to solve each and every specific possible problem scenario? Especially when more would pop up due to more content being added?
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"Tunneling" is playing the killers objective. How is bullying part of the survivors objective?
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So, I'm getting whiplash from your inconsistencies.
Because within the span of just this one thread, you're claiming here that "gen rushing" is literally anything that helps get gens done (despite that not being what it's ever meant).
And yet, when it comes to "face camping" you in this same thread want to hold tightly to the strictest definition from 7 years ago.
I've never seen bias so strong that it actually interferes with coherence before.
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You're essentially describing genrush as 'the ability for survivors to win the game'.
That is not going to get 'fixed'.
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There is no inconsistencies. That's the same definition of gen rush, I am using for years. If gens fly by, while chases take ages, the balance is tilted towards the survivor. 4 years ago, it was at my personal experience peak. That's why I stopped playing. I will see, if it improved consistently.
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Yes, it is the "win" for the survivor, but this needs a balance. With your logic tunneling is no issue, because chasing is 'the ability for killer to win the game'. Same logic? Are you happy with that?
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Except killers can win just fine without tunnelling, but survivors literally cannot win if gens take longer than kills.
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I agree with OP. They could implement a few minor changes now to provide some relief. Namely, concealment from Killer Instinct for X seconds after being rescued, so you don't get insta-tunneled by The Legion during Feral Frenzy after you're rescued. Basekit Ubreakable after X seconds of slugging. There's also a trend that negative changes for Survivors go live despite pronounced protestations during PTB (AFK Crows, for example). Still, the other way around, they usually get cancelled within days of the PTB (Some exceptions, I'm aware).
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I think it's fixable, but not via the crows. The game should just spawn a glyph every X minutes, and if the killer nabs it before the survivors do, he gets killer instinct on survivors for a bit.
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There are only a few scenarios that are actually extreme enough to affect survivors being able to do meaningful interactions for long periods of time.
Most the scenarios involve hex totems, survivor resources (i.e. generators or exit gate switches) being blocked, or killers slugging for the 4k.
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What is a killer "win" for you? What is it that they achieve "just fine"?
I still believe gen time is still faster, as killers can chase. N8t regarding S Tier killer. I hate playing Nurse or Blight and I suck with Billys chainsaw.
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Did they change the mechanic? When I played survivor (before my retunr now), you did not get crows, if you at least moved just a little bit. Crouched in cover, just sway a little left to right and you#ve been safe. Did that change? and if so, instead of fixing it, they removed it completely (killer nerf)??
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What is a killer "win" for you? What is it that they achieve "just fine"?
3K+, the most common outcome of matches.
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There's a gigantic flaw in your definition that you aren't accounting for, either accidentally or deliberately:
I can play perkless trapper and turn my monitor off after I queue up for a game. You know what's going to happen that match?
It's exactly:
gens fly by, while chases take ages,
If killer skill issue also gives you the same result, then it seems that classifying all of this as "gen rushing", and directly stating that is a survivor issue, is demonstrably way off the mark.
Which, to be honest, is what most claims of "gen rushing" actually are: killers who also on 4 slowdown perks, blindly wander the map, take 60+ seconds to find someone, then inefficiently chase while kicking every pallet, looping incorrectly, not zoning, and not managing their power, bloodlust, or even the may resources correctly.
Then scream "gen rush" when all of that results in getting their first down 3 minutes into a match and two gens are done by survivors who have DS, OTR, Lithe, Unbreakable, with medkits.
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AFK crows was supposed to have a buff because people were dropping and picking up items and moving from locker to locker hiding making no attempt to do gens while preventing crows. The devs have actually said avoiding the objective while not progressing the match is a reportable offence, hence why they introduced anti hiding crows to trigger more frequently. Survivors said they were too oppressive and triggered when they were just looking for a hex totem or looking for a gen so the AFK crows were reverted back to the original AFK crows that remains useless in preventing survivors from hiding for 20min, 30min an hour in some cases.
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to all those that complain about tunneling and slugging… do you have escape rates that reflect it being an issue? if it is as common and can cant be countered as what people say, this would reflect in your own escape rate. Bare in mind the devs aim for 40% escape rate.
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People with 80%+ kill rates complain about gen rushing.
Are you really going to try and claim that because the devs are hitting their arbitrary statistics goals on average that the game is somehow perfect for everyone?
C'mon now.
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So your definition of gen rushing is survivors doing their base objective better than you doing yours? Because the word "rush" implies something is speeding up the process, like perks or toolboxes. If one survivor is on a gen for 90s and finishes it uninterrupted that's not gen rushing, that's you being bad at managing the map and spreading pressure.
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no it works both ways, people that get 80% kill rate shouldnt complain about gen rushing, they are getting kills faster than gens can be done so have nothing to complain about. Likewise survivors that get 40% or more escape rate have nothing to complain about. If anything they should be complaining about the devs target goal of 40% if they are not happy with it. Like i said, do people have escape rates that reflect there being an issue? i dont mean on average across the whole survivor player base im talking about their own personal escape rate. mine for example is 52% out of 75 matches so far this month. i suspect a huge majority of people that are complaining about there being an issue have 40% escape or more which invalidates their complaint. the people that struggle to get this escape rate might have more validity in their arguments but judging from the stats i think most people are hitting that 40%
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Who are those people with 80%+ kill rates and where do you get those number from?
Sounds unrealistic for me.
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to prove im unbiased i feel compelled to say… i have 80% kill rate with myers…however i dont complain about gen speeds when i play myers.
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Except tunnelling and slugging are marked as gameplay issues. They are problems because they ruin the fun of the game.
Genrushing is marked as a balance issue. It is marked as a problem because it supposedly cripples killer winrates.
A high kill rate can be evidence of genrushing not being a problem.
A high escape rate cannot be evidence of tunnelling being 'fun, actually'.
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Genuinely good suggestion, this would also work as a secondary objective with would cause the match to progress slower(depending on the frequency of glyph spawns) and not touch the already boring 90 seconds.
Question: What would be your target time for a bit in this scenario?
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🤚
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Where do I get that stats for me? And even if you are that good, it's not about top killer, but what about the fun of average killer? It's always abotu "the fun of average survivors". Btw… I consider myself an about average killer, but I never had real stats for that, that's why I ask, where you got them from.
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i think thats the link to get stats from 2020 onwards. i wouldnt say im a top killer by far and im worse survivor. i just put a lot of time into both roles and learnt the counter play from both perspectives.
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There are a bunch of people in this forum with numbers in that range. They've posted their stats.
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the way i see it gun rushing and tunneling goes hand in hand. killers tunnel to get kills faster than gens can be done. people gen rush to get gens faster than the killer can kill. when both at the peak the match is over in like 4 or 5 min. fun? im not sure, but it is the core gameplay in its basic form.
both issues being fun or not is a better argument than what i see most people say time and time again. "tunneling cant be countered, low skill easy kills" That argument should be thrown out entirely if they have 40% escape rate. As for the fun element, is being on the hook fun? is sitting on a gen fun? personally i would say no but it is part of survivor gameplay.
As i have said before, soloq that dont do gens and meme all match isnt an issue for the killer, they can spread hooks. an swf team that knocks out gens like no tomorrow? killers often cant afford to spread hooks so they tunnel. recently had a match that lasted like 8 min, which isnt the fastest by far. But if you divide 12 hooks by 8min it works out roughly 40 seconds per chase… including time it takes to hook and time it takes to walk and find survivors. swf teams know if the killer is chasing 1 survivor 3 others can do gens, drop chase to get 1 off a gen and maintain pressure and the one you dropped chase hops on a gen. this is where tunneling is needed imo. not for solo players but for the swf swat teams which appear in the high mmr. if its balanced for killer v solo then swf will dominate. if its balanced for swf then solo players suffer.
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Aside from the fact that having a 40% ER doesn't equal having a good time, if you've been playing a long time and have a good grip on the game, you shouldn't be satisfied with the average rate, especially if you're losing to players who are worse than you but resorted to cheese tactics to beat a better player. The whole point is to excel, not be average forever. If killers can get 70%+ KRS, survivors should be able to get 50% ERs, at least, if they've made the effort to become skilled.
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and they can get 50% escape rate….
soloq, awful team mates, gen build.
escape rate and kill rate might no equate to "fun" but as i have pointed out the escape rate being 40% isnt a defence for having fun or not it is a defence for the people saying it cant be countered….it can and has been countered as shown in the escape rate.
fun is subjective and people might not think being tunneled or slugged is fun just like they think being on hook or doing gens isnt fun. these are aspects of the survivor role. fun or not, its part of the game we choose to play.
can killers win v survivors that are better than them because they used cheese tactics? possibly, thats another discussion. can survivors win against killers better than them? possibly. i mean i can sit on gens and not get into chase and if other team members loop the killer long enough i can escape even if the killer would down me in 5 seconds if they chased me. or i could not do gens at all and escape via hatch. the point is both sides can "win" without showing skill to beat a better player.
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