Krasue is what happens when they balance/design the game for spreading and committing to hooks.
Comments
-
In this sense, yeah, with short chases casual players will be forced stick to gens harder. Soloq will be even harder and SWF will be even more chill experience, with soloq < killer < SWF gap will be even bigger.
So yeah, it's great that at least someone talks about it now, before it's too late.
Edit: But by watching replies, it seems people completely missed what this post about and probably didn't even read it.-1 -
Yeah, in the end, if you deny Killers the ability to use any strategy other than "playing nice" and hooking after every down, then the only game variables left for BHVR to balance things with will be gen times and chase times.
0 -
She definitely needs nerfed. Shes like spirit on steroids.
1 -
when i talked about it on reddit some bozos accused me of making ######### up and said this isn't related.
they genuinely believe it doesnt come at a price.
0 -
Yeah, many survivors believe that they will get omega buff here and now and it won't backfire with anything in near future at all. I mean, it's about how many players truly understand what game they are playing.
-2 -
this is what playing one side does to a person.
they really forget that as far as devs are concerned with their balancing mindset they are NOT changing in the foreseeable future, the game is already pretty balanced. average killrates are about 60%, even below that, actually, except for like all MMRs solo qers.
so any big change like that will be compensated and accounted for in the future killer designs.
yeah, it's likely that the majority of the roster will be in fact nerfed, but most of these killers the changes are targeted at will just migrate to the newest accurately "balanced" thing.
and even if none of these changes happen, there is still MMR system that does work to a greater degree than people like to think. Even if devs miraculously do give survivors this gigabuff, this will just artificially boost survivors way above their skill level and they will be matched with killers that can keep up in spite of that. Of course, that would also mean that most casual killers will most likely quit, so this would also lead to very long queue times on the survivor side which is not something you'd expect to happen for a role that is supposed to have higher demand.
There is no conceivable scenario for toxic casuals where they win. There are only those where they lose the least and, ironically, this is the scenario that involves developers balancing the game around fair and interactive killers, rather than putting killers on rails and giving them ultra op chase to balance or eradicating their casual killer playerbase.
1 -
Agree. And I think future MMR changes, if it will be truly good, will make it even worse. Currently you lose some insanely easy matches due to insanely bad survivors in your team, but also win some matches, because killer is new player and you are somehow in lobby with 5-8k hours comp Aces and Renato... Against 40 hours Huntress. And it kinda balances out all other problems, because ON AVERAGE game is fine. If even me, pretty bad survivor compared to top players, but good compared to average level of players, can escape 50% of my matches in soloq with current MMR, I can't imagine my escape rate with all 4 survivors near my level every match.
Put players with and against players with their skill level and it will be completely different game. We will see how truly broken survivors on top level with all free-time stuff they have. I assume even new survivors will be fine going against new players only, especially with 20 pallets on every map with killer trying to understand why he is punished for every move he takes. And even on average level I believe it will be easier to play against average killers, because if you are on average working MMR level, I think it means that nobody afraid of gens in your team. And I simply don't see where you can add another gigabuff to survivors here on top of this.
That's why I think MMR changes should happens before any other major change in this game. Because bad MMR is where most problems come from. 4 slowdown tunneling Blight going against run-to-yellow Sable is not game balance problem, it's matchmaking problem.
-2 -
Sorry, double posted due to bad connection. Mods, delete this one, if it possible, please.
-2 -
yeah, people dont realize even remotely how much they benefit from the broken / unfair things in the current game.
I dont think MMR change should ship with any fundamental changes though, it should've been the first thing to happen and it should've worked on its own for a while before they actually make any sweeping changes.
0 -
When did anyone found counterplay way later then release? This never happened. People are not stupid and can comprehend this gameplay pretty easily as it isnt anywhere complex to begin with. So can we stop pretending something like this will miraculously happen?
2 -
to be fair, it took months for bad players to figure out how to use EMPs or Turrets (or counter the former as the singularity) but even so good players very quickly figured what exactly to do.
here however we have even big comp players say the killer is ridiculously unfair.
-2 -
bad players doesnt matter.
-1 -
they do apparently otherwise we wouldnt be seeing this kind of anti tunnel/slug or killers like krasue
4 -
The direction DbD is going in reminds me of VHS- if you've never played it, Monster (Killer) was extremely difficult to play. Almost everything about the game was skewed in the Teens' (Survivors) favor.
Teens could build weapons to turn the tables on the Monster (And the objective was for Teens to kill the Monster with 4 different weapons), there were powerups for Teens scattered all over the map, camping and tunneling were both disadvantageous (If you only focused on one Teen, the others would be free to build weapons- plus, you could only down Teens, not hook them, and they could pick themselves up after a fairly short amount of time), and the optimal strategy was for one Teen to lure the Monster around a corner while multiple other Teens laid in wait with weapons ready.
Any new player trying out Monster would get creamed over and over- so in the end, the only people who willingly played as Monster were people who were willing to suffer through countless crushing defeats and were really good. So Teens still ultimately lost games at roughly the same rate as in DbD, except the Teen queue times were way too long because nobody wanted to play Monster.
So yeah, there's no version of this where Survivors come out on top and get 4 escapes every game. They're gonna keep getting killed at roughly the same rate- the question is, do they want low-tier Killers to be viable, or do they want to play against nothing but Blight/Ghoul? Do they want queue times to be reasonable, or do they want to play one match per hour if they're lucky?
1 -
It’s clear that Krasue was made to counter the “bully squads” or high MMR SWFs. What about the solo que players?
This killer has ALOT of tweaks that need to be made. Mainly cooldowns just need to be added to:
-when she switches form,
-m1 after m2,
-after she uses her dash in head form,
-and probably more.
Another suggestion would be to make the auto-aim on her spit as an iridescent add-on instead of base kit (or just remove auto aim altogether ← preferred). The only way to make chases longer is to not get infected! Once infected, this killer can chase in head form for guaranteed hits, since she does not apply to the majority of killers when it comes to hugging objects. There are no 50/50s, 50/50s only waste another second before being downed — making these no longer 50/50s.
Also, Why is it that she can now put a survivor into injured state when carrying a survivor in head form instead of applying leech?! Makes no sense as she can only apply her infection to a healthy survivor. If that were to change, Krasue can easily counter this by switching forms to carry a survivor in her body, easy.
Another change to make would be to NOT make the mushroom cure last 7-10 business days. An add-on could make it last longer, or the cure can last longer while in chase, but not while a survivor is off in the corner to grab a mushroom then hopping onto a gen while the killer is busy on the other side of the map - only to to be yanked by Krasue in head form with a free injury hit. So silly and unnecessary.
-1 -
I dont think she was made for that purpose. She only fulfills it because she is absolutely unbalanced bc she exists in the environment where she can slug/tunnel.
if she went live with the systems, she would've been a killer that destroys solos without chance, struggles to bully squads and loses to genrush SWFs, because the only counterplay to her is playing as a team, dying in good spots, playing for bodyblocks and being as efficient on gens as only possible.
-1 -
Almo, the ex-dev people remember for really controversial things like saying we wont get accessibility because we're being annoying about it or nerfing huntress' lullaby bc of doctor's skillchecks, said a really based thing about this. You can read more here, but what it boils down to is that a big mistake these games made was creating a dissonance between the fantasy of the game and the actual gameplay. Killer was supposed to be scary / unstoppable, but ended up being the hunted one due to the means of protection survivors were given.
While I dont think DbD is going in this exact direction, I think they lean too much into "make killer scary" and end up killing the gameplay instead. Inadvertently, since they do have to balance these "op scary killers", they end up introducing the mechanics that DO end up creating this dissonance - killer is not allowed to kill survivors or be the intelligent hunter the game promises you can be.
They try too hard to sell the fantasy of an unstoppable killer that they forget this game is about outsmarting and outwitting the opponent. The way dbd accomplishes it is through strategies of applying pressure and being smart about who you chase, who you hook and who you kill.
What they end up accomplishing is a dumbed down husk of a game which looks glittery on surface, but is completely shallow on the inside.
It feels like DbD is experiencing a mid-life crisis and is trying to go back to its youth when it was still scary and immersive, but in doing so just destroys everything that made it such a good game. And no matter how hard it tries, it won't pass off as a what it tries to be. It's too late and it should move on.
2 -
Nothin of this has to do anything with bad players.
-2 -
you can keep telling this yourself
2 -
I think some sort of anti-tunneling measure is justified. Survivor players are correct, to a certain degree- there's a lot of braindead Killer players out there who use tunneling as a crutch. I recently ran into a Freddy who barely landed his power, hard tunneled someone out of the game, even brought NOED. Certainly didn't feel good to die to him.
But any anti-tunneling system needs to be a LOT less heavy-handed than what BHVR had on the PTB. Like, keep the rewards for fresh hooks (Though I'd rework exactly how you reward Killers- like, give them a basekit Pain Res instead of Pop), maybe punish the Killer if they literally just hooked the same Survivor over and over until they're dead, but beyond that? Ehh… it'll have to be handled pretty carefully.
1 -
None because the game is fundamentally flawed since BHVR refuses to address the real issue. People will downvote me but SWF need a mechanic overhaul and SoloQ needs a mechanic overhaul, those two things need to be completely separate while being able to work together on a team.
As we have seen, BHVR is releasing op no skill boring Killers since the game has been too ill-equipped for vsing SWF, so BHVR releases Killer slop to counter them because who's going to buy new Killers if they're immediately getting 0k-1k every match off the bat. Then months later after people have purchased the DLC, BVHR nerfs them just in time to release the next one. Meanwhile Survs keep getting perks that really only function in a SWF and even if they didn't, SoloQ is sooooo limited on the perks that are viable. It's just a circle jerk of a mess with no real end at sight, like a snake eating it's own tail.
0 -
I fully agree but let's be honest here. BHVR will not and have not shown that a balanced game is what they desire.
Honestly went on a rant but cutting it short cause ranting wont do anything lol.
Genuinely no matter how much logic should prevail. It's clear that a balanced or even attempting to make a fair game is not something BHVR cares to do. Their actions are clear. I don't know if it's just money. It probably has to do with pumping out as many DLCs as possible to sell the hype train. It's clearly a very lucrative method and if it didn't work then BHVR wouldn't be doing it.
It could also be some people(s) at BHVR have PTSD from the new part meta years ago and now have this vendetta against survivors and are pushing the company to fulfill their own sick twisted sadistic fantasy. Although I am confident it's probably just money lol.
It's funny seeing the vote down but no explanation as to why you disagree. Maybe I hurt your feelings with the truth in my rant but honestly I don't care :P
1 -
yeah, they're right, but see, that's the problem.
bad players NEED their crutches, because devs are making the game FOR BAD PLAYERS. they aren't making the game for good players and OF COURSE they aren't making the game for "bad survivors good killers".
so if you take away this crutch that gives survivors more balanced killers and reasonable gentimes, you will get krasues, because just like survivor players cant be told to "get gut", killer playes won't listen to that either. people want their casual game, so there it goes.
there will always be something that "feels bad to lose to" because that's the nature of the "balancing for bad (actually average but we all know what that means) players".
it doesn't mean you can't make these crutches harder to do, but this is the key difference - harder to do, not weaker if you do implement them in your gameplay.
on an unrelated note, another thing is that the anti tunnelling systems are FUNDAMENTALLY flawed, not just in execution, but in idea. You cannot PUNISH people for doing their job as a killer, because that would IMMEDIATELY cause the gameplay loop to fall apart or become narrowed to a chase simulator with little nuance to it.
We saw that on PTB where survivors' first instinct with the system was to play aggressively because the killer couldn't punish them for that anymore. Survivors always need to be threatened by a possibility of being tunnelled / slugged, this cannot change because then they would be greenlit to make all kinds of unsafe plays to win the game quicker that would normally be punished by aforementioned strategies.
The correct way to approach tunnelling issue is to identify if it actually is too easy to implement (it is) and look for ways to make it harder without just giving survivors more umbrella shields.
Elusive status effect was like that. !!Not!! the 30 second endurance part, but basekit "no blood, scratchmarks, sounds of pain, aura" part. Passive purely defensive effects that make it easier to leave hook and do the correct play of avoiding being found and tunneled in the first place.
Removing loud noise notification for unhook was a good idea, I think removing hook aura as well.
The whole "concealing hook progress and delaying the notification" part was a terrible design though that should make BHVR's head office question the competence of their game designers.
0 -
Well, like I said, if gen times are a problem, why not reward the Killer with gen regression for not tunneling? Hell, Pain Res has been an "anti-tunneling" perk for ages now, so why not make it basekit?
I agree that it's generally better to use the carrot than the stick to get Killers to play in certain ways- Killers usually tunnel simply because the rewards for not doing so aren't enough, or they require a lot more skill to properly take advantage of.
I think we'd see a lot less aggressive Survivor play if we only punished hard tunneling. If the Killer was only punished if they literally just hooked the same person 3 times in a row, and no one else.
Because that really doesn't leave much room for an unhooked Survivor to play aggressively- all the Killer has to do is win a chase after they leave the hook and they can tunnel the surv out just as before.
Another issue was that the anti-tunnel was introduced alongside the anti-slug system, which had plenty of problems of its own to say the least. The anti-tunnel in combination with the anti-slug made it very easy for Survivors on death hook to create "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" situations. If you hooked them, you'd be punished for tunneling. If you slugged them, they'd get right back up.
The problem I see with Elusive and just hiding information from the Killer is that it's inconsistent- on an outdoor map, the Killer might still be able to see the unhooked Survivor and run them down just fine.
0 -
>Well, like I said, if gen times are a problem, why not reward the Killer with gen regression for not tunneling? Hell, Pain Res has been an "anti-tunneling" perk for ages now, so why not make it basekit?
because that spawns a helluva lot of issues you can summarize as "killers dont have to take gen slowdown anymore". there is a very good ######### reason why killers HAVE to take gen slowdown if they want to stay competitive - everything else is cheap, skillless and marginally less healthy.
imagine all those cheesy "fun (to use)" builds that killer could bring that would no longer have a downside of "you can get genrushed". remember hex meta? imagine it alongside killers getting basekit slowdown (and also info and haste btw). or endgame build. or full chase builds like haste perks stack / coup+blood favour+dissolution kind of cheese builds.
this is not going to create good gameplay, same on the survivor side if they dont have to bring mandatory second chance perks that do nothing if killer doesnt play mean.
>Another issue was that the anti-tunnel was introduced alongside the anti-slug system, which had plenty of problems of its own to say the least. The anti-tunnel in combination with the anti-slug made it very easy for Survivors on death hook to create "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" situations. If you hooked them, you'd be punished for tunneling. If you slugged them, they'd get right back up.
yes, but I wouldn't really separate them, considering slugging and tunnel often come hand to hand - main counterplay to DS was slugging, which is why small pp combo was even a thing, for example.
>The problem I see with Elusive and just hiding information from the Killer is that it's inconsistent- on an outdoor map, the Killer might still be able to see the unhooked Survivor and run them down just fine.
and you will have to pick between inconsistent and utterly flawed solutions, this is how it is.
1
