http://dbd.game/killswitch
Game should reconsider how MMR loss affects lobbies
Hello.
So, recently I returned to playing killer again - and noticed some tendency that made me realise and I hope it’ll be taken into account for upcoming MMR changes next year.
Currently, I’m playing Killer again - just because I’m really striving to complete my personal challenge. I was also interested in a way of organising some kind of stats gathering, just for potential content for my possible YouTube channel later. Just an example how it looks like:
One of the things I was interested in was MMR and how it worked in this game. And even though I'm still working on collecting statistics, I want to already complain about one stuff really a lot.
And this is MMR loss.
So, reaching almost 70% killrate on around the 55th game I started to notice that games became fairly harder, and I was about to reach top cap. 12k hours is what I’ve seen at most and 4-7k hours for usual.
Being actually a kinda new player (750 hours) with around 400 hours on Killer I started to naturally struggle. And no, I’m not actually about to complain about how this game treated me unfairly considering my hours - because I purposefully played to up my skill and win rate. And as in every PvP game, of course, I started to lose. One time or another. Most games started to finish as a tie (doesn't matter whether I was hard tunnelling, spreading hooks between two, or hooking everyone once before kill. It's more about gen efficiency which is pretty natural for high MMR), some of them as losses. I can’t say I was hardly losing every match - because in 20 games I made less than 3 kills only in 9 of them. It was frustrating, but I was finding it fair most of the time.
However, it was enough for the game to decide to send me to low MMR. And by low MMR I mean after some losses game started to matchmake me with survivors who have less than 200 hours:
Just a few things to consider:
— It wasn't only “one accidental match” - it was a whole tendency and I had another 4 games like this in a row just today.
— All games happened within a few days and I can be sure the game purposefully sends me to lower-level lobbies, so I can return to some win rate I had before. And because we don't really have mid MMR and braces are soft, people genuinely struggled against me, while I barely had any fun because my opportunity to face stronger players and practice was denied.
— I encountered this issue many times before, both on killer and survivor, it is just the first time I was able to record this through my own stats.
BHVR, I don’t really find this approach fair towards any kind of player.
I would find it much more balanced if this game introduced some MMR lock. So u wouldn't be matched with new or low MMR players even after a streak of losses or when queue times are skyrocketing. Because, well - isn’t it supposed to force players to overcome difficulties and play better? The current system, leads to so many issues that frustrate players over and over again…
- Some players purposefully lower their MMR to struggle less. However, their opponents are facing greater disadvantages - this demotivates many new players and leads to the spread of tribalism between both sides.
- This is affecting stats, as well as the overall impression of game balance. This issue increases the chance of creating false conclusions that may affect decisions of any upcoming changes, and I’m afraid the reason why we got Krasue in Ghoul in such a way of balancing can be related to this
- Players are deprived of actual progression. We still can’t get more strict win conditions, just because this game tends to prioritise the comfort of players over. And yes, maybe we should prioritise comfort. But unfortunately, the way it’s done now is about sacrificing the comfort of other players.
- People feel overstressed. Some players like me who actually strive for “sweat” and want to achieve the best. They may fall into a trap which forces them to fear any loss, as it could dramatically set them back in their development. This can lead to such players becoming “toxic”, which, of course, can impact other players.
I feel, as way as you assumed, that some MMR buffer on killers to prevent kind of smurfing (situation when experienced killer will face with new survivors just because they decided to try new killer), same should happen with MMR losing, until it’ll lead to critical point and will show player actually just unable to level their skill for some personal reasons.
We need to change the win conditions for this well. The game should stop focusing on personal escapes and kill rate. Win, tie and loss that evolves around how many players escaped/killed is way more logical, because:
— This will motivate players in solo Q play to be less selfish and work more as a well-oiled machine. Today's situation is such that the average player doesn't feel responsible for their teammates or has poor risk assessment skills, even though teamwork is critically important now since we've moved away from the era of matches where you could heal yourself in a matter of seconds, repair genes, or guarantee long chases simply thanks to a certain perk.
— U’ll be able to introduce the hatch system as an actual way of escape and it’ll have the potential to be something more than the RGN prize, with the upcoming rework.
— Killers will be much less obsessed with 4 kills, if there is no difference between one or two escapes, so it’ll lower the frequency of slugging at the end of the match which people find frustrating.
I have nothing more to say. Of course, MMR right now is more about its absence. Therefore, this post is more aimed at asking devs to avoid the same mistakes in the future.
Comments
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I also feel the shift towards better opponents when I get around 70% KR on a killer with a decent quantity of matches. Even when I know they're soloq, they'll work together seamlessly. There's none of that in mid. And I'm often unprepared for it. I've had it happen on killers who I've only even used half their abilities and I'm only doing well because my opponenets don't know how to counter that killer. Then I get really good survivors with a killer I barely know, and now they know the killler better than me and I'm screwed. The MMR ascent really needs to be more gradual and calculated.
I agree that the win conditions need to change. Soloq survivors are selfish and ratting or poor plays need to be combated. If the best looper in the match dies and their whole team escaped because if it, that survivor deserves a win instead of a death. And someone who ratted the whole match deserves a lose instead of an escape. On the killer side though, I don't know what you can do about the 4k obsession, because that's more about stats. As long as people have a number to thrist over or a social media audience to perform for, I don't know if you can stop their relentless pursuit. As it is, 3k is a win, yet the 4k slugging continues.
My concern with an MMR lock is the potential to be stuck with something you can't handle for too long. Some people sky rocket quickly, especially with easier killlers. I'm pretty sure most people would just get frustrated and quit a killer if they were losing every single match rather then struggle to improve, or wait for too lengthy of a lock to unlock. That's just people. Or, again, the more gradual ascent.
There's nothing MMR can do about smurfing though. You have a baseline MMR for that reason. Whenever I try a new killer, it generally gives me mid level players immediately. True smurfing is making a whole new account so you get new people you can easily smash.
How truly common is this chill-match MMR manipulation? I've never actually heard anyone admit to it. It's more that I've heard people accuse people if it. If this is that common, I'd imagine, rather than boosting their MMR and then lowering it with loses, killers simply periodically let whole teams go, making it so their MMR stays the same and never goes up at all. I don't know how you can combat that, assuming it's happening that much at all.
And then there's the number one issue: speed over quality. I'd like to see them implement a quick queue that matches you with whoever (basically what we have now) and a slower one that matches you better. If the slower queue is taking too long you can always back out and go to the other.
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My concern with an MMR lock is the potential to be stuck with something you can't handle for too long. Some people sky rocket quickly, especially with easier killlers. I'm pretty sure most people would just get frustrated and quit a killer if they were losing every single match rather then struggle to improve, or wait for too lengthy of a lock to unlock. That's just people. Or, again, the more gradual ascent.
I’m agree with this, so even me is unsure how strict this lock should be even.
I think if 2 kills wouldn’t be considered as bad for killrate (idk, my theory MMR in this game also takes it into account, otherwise we wouldn't see it in official stats), while actually hard streak of losses from 5 max to 10 games will lead to gradual “skill adaptablity” it would be nice. I noticed it’s already kinda working, but mostly for survivors?… While killers is literally about something black and white.
I still find it surreal that me playing against 12 k hours and 150 hours being around 1k myself was caused by 9 games where I didn't 3k.
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I still find it surreal that me playing against 12 k hours and 150 hours being around 1k myself was caused by 9 games where I didn't 3k.
That's pretty absurd, yeah. It needs to be tighter. Maybe more percentage-based, considering how much time you've played with the character and weighing the losses against that. So many of these matches were 2K? I thought those weren't even supposed to affect MMR at all. If they are, that's way too strict, unless you get like 200 2Ks in a row or something.
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How truly common is this chill-match MMR manipulation? I've never actually heard anyone admit to it. It's more that I've heard people accuse people if it.
I think watching this 6 minutes video and reading some comments under it would be enough to understand
I don’t find it extremely toxic, but it's definetely something about unfairness in this game. Many players can’t hold actual high MMR because it shows how actually problematic balance is here. After having some ties even I was about to crush out sometimes, because welp… one mistake was able to cost everything for me.
Cause games on high MMR is literally about doing as much as possible in few minutes. Playing my current challenge showed me how actually short matches can be. 15 minutes is something so long for me now…
That's why I understand when people avoid playing on high level, especially on killer which is not S tier, because not really a lot gamers enjoying to tunnel/slug, when on this so called high MMR it’s a necessity no one actually able to deny. Speaking with some players with more experience than me, like those who still playing pubs and not custom comms, yet treat game kinda competitive showed me a lot about their mindset. Even pure survivors mains from high MMR were treating tunneling as a play more rather than cheese attempt. As well as killers don’t crash out on gen efficiency.
I don’t think it should be available to avoid this high MMR that easily as it is now. Many killers I would like to say have busted killrate because as soon as they struggle game tries to fix it by giving them some survivors who definitely didn't deserve to be a tool for someone killrate fix, but game treats them like this
Definetely, if game already considerated me I have to play with more experienced people, and if it hadn't changed its mind so quickly, I'd have a very balanced win rate on many killer main. Right now... it's very artificial. Do I really deserve that 4k from survivors when they played so little? So little, that they even blamed me in hard tunneling when first kill happened on 6th hook stage.
I'd like to play fewer games like this. Firstly, because I often get very aggressive comments from such players. Secondly, because it literally pollutes my stats with games I shouldn't have, and adds extra percentages to rates that distort my actual skill…
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I had 5-6 ties and same amount of loses. I was expecting my MMR to drop, but not that low. I had probably the easiest games in my memory after month of grinding my one perk challenge…
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I really couldn't feel a difference.
If there's MMR, and it is functional, it doesn't really work at all. My matches are as easy as they've always been, much to my disappointment.
Regardless, the game does need updated win conditions.
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I'm unsure how much research you have done regarding MMR, and while most of it is still not really fully known, there are some things I think no one else has commented on that should be taken into account.
At the current moment, mmr is not actually a deciding factor as much as a starting area, queue times are prio'd over MMR by bumping either up or down in bracket (I believe it's supposed to be down but I think it can go either way), I myself do not know the full extent on how this works, but you will see a lot of variation.
Newer accounts start at a base bracket and just winning a decent amount of matches in a row could really jump it up, on either side. There is something in game for anti smurfing (starting with a higher base MMR), however it only applies in the instance of family sharing, but even if you watch, say for example, content creators that do hardcore challenges on fresh accounts, they tend to face more players with more experience fairly fast.
Something to also take into account is playing vs SWF's, while you don't know if the players you face are teamed up or not, that can bring players of lower skill into higher skill matches. I myself alongside my friend just got our other friend into the game recently, they still have maybe 100hours of play (me and my friend are at 2k~ each) but we pair with a 4th surv and killer that have 2k-10k+ hours fairly commonly, sometimes less, it really does fluctuate, and unless they're on steam and don't have it hidden, I can't check their hours so this is only off the games that I can check. (I realise this more than likely isnt the case as for your example, but it is always possible.)
If specifically killer related, each killer has their own individual MMR that "rubber bands" off of your own highest MMR killer. So as an example, if you play Nurse the most, you're likely to have the highest MMR on her, so your other killers would be lower MMR but it's something based off of her MMR (I don't know the stats on it, just that it exists.) You'll rarely ever fully know if one player has like 10k hours while rest of the team is 700-2k hours, the MMR brackets, especially the soft cap, is quite flexible, and you will rarely not bump into other brackets in queue (from my own experience at least playing both sides.)
I personally can't say I feel much of a change from a losing streak on either side myself, but this could just be me being used to the variety to begin with, and even then the brackets are pretty wide in range of skill for players too. I've also personally have heard some players say it takes them a while to drop their MMR too but there's nothing I can really provide to prove it or not.
Now in other news, come February they should be changing how MMR works and said it would be more aligned based off how you played in said match rather than the current conditions of winning (3k+ for killer, escape through exit gate for survivor.) It's a while away still but hopefully it'll feel better than what it does currently.1 -
At the current moment, mmr is not actually a deciding factor as much as a starting area, queue times are prio'd over MMR by bumping either up or down in bracket (I believe it's supposed to be down but I think it can go either way), I myself do not know the full extent on how this works, but you will see a lot of variation.
As I noticed myself, if my matches on killer are quick, while on survivor is slightly longer than usual (30 sec - 1 min), I would more likely to face same level or opponents stronger than me
Thats why I’m trying to play between 09 pm to 02 am. Idk, it just feels in such matches people at least trying to play. It doesn’t cancel some mismatch, but it’s the fault of MMR being too flexible rn
If the Devs had published player statistics with their kill/surv rates and somehow grouped them in a specific way, and then published them... maybe the reasons for queue priority over MMR would be less frustrating. But for now...1) We don't know if "mid MMR" really exists or what it means.
2) We don't know exactly how matchmaking works in SFW, other than we know how the match RESULT is reflected for each player (yes, this game has an SFW multiplier that determines the outcome of MMR gains/losses based on how many survivors are saved, which should ideally be the case in solo lobbies too...).3) We don't know exactly whether disconnects allow this system to be manipulated or how much they affect MMR changes.
4) We don't know the proportion of low-MMR and high-MMR players, and how exactly these aspects intersect in the system.
For me, the worst thing is that we still don't know the exact ratio of survivors to killers. I already tried to argue that a broken and imperfect MMR leads to a boost rate for killers, which then extends the search time due to the system's inability to find an equal pool, but no one even bothered to listen, trying to present the position as truth that we simply have more killer players than necessary. Even though indirect tools like NL show that people load their games at a ratio of 5-6 survivors x 1 killer. It's impossible that such a strange MMR system won't sooner or later lead to different averages rates for different sides, which ultimately leads to longer queues.
For your point about sfw, I noticed my matches are easier when I’m playing with friend. But I can’t really do a lot of testing tbh, because it’s hard to engage people I know to help me in this actually boring stat gathering :₽ For my personal experience I usually meet some P100 Blight or Huntress more likely when I’m playing solo.The statistics I collected were largely driven by personal interests and an attempt to analyze my own play. My memory is often very good at recalling game details when I see a team's perk set, their characters, and the map, so I tried to write all of this for future recall. I just came across some rather unpleasant observations as well, such as VERY SERIOUS difficulties with map rotation, the lack or absence of anti-tunnel perks for solo players, and MMR differences.I don't know how interested people will be if I publish this personal stats with some observations. This post is already showed, people… maybe not really interested in it on this forum
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stars are always useful - sometimes people’s minds are more occupied or disgruntled by other factors affecting them. Now, this is just an example - for some, let’s say someone who plays purely or mainly soloq and is having a hard time because of (perceived or real) tunnelling, frustrating changes and/or disgruntled experience because of recent killers or heavy losses/bad feeling - they may see this post in isolation and feel “must feel good for a killer to have their woes attached to ‘2K’ or getting sent to easier lobbies”.
I say all this, not to discourage you, but rather the opposite - don’t feel concerned if there isn’t a high engagement on such stats or posts. Sharing stats is always good and who knows, maybe in a few weeks or months, people will refer to your published stats and see patterns overall with their own or the wider state of the game.
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As survivor main as well, I understand this, so tried not talking about this a lot even. And.. as you see, I’m claiming 2k is absolutely fine, considering I’m playing one perk I don’t expect to see other result from good players against me, even if I’m hardtunneling or sth. Because well, part of survivors play is gen efficiency. And playing with one perk can’t influence on good spread around the map (tbh even with 4 slowdown you can’t do much about it, but this still pretty unpopular).
This post isn’t about killrate really. It’s more about how people deprived of challenge in this game on one side and this leads to boosted rates, that can bring false equivalences of people considering killers are op role, or some balance misconsideration.
Yesterday I had lose streak myself as survivor, but it doesn’t affect my mentality too much. I understand why this streak happened, and the only I can do is getting better and hoping I can improve, as well as my lobbies. Honestly, half of those matches were lost simply because one teammate went completely wrong at the wrong time and place, or made a mistake that cost everyone the game. It wouldn’t happen if not primitive mistakes or survivors had some free info about each other in solo q. There were also matches on that same day where the killer hardtuned/tunneled, and we escaped anyway, because, well, again, there are a ton of factors that can actually influence the outcome, and not just one killer's decision to do something. MMR is one of such thing.
I don't really expect statistics or anything like that to be popular on this forum, so this is more of an observation than a complaint
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My xenos mmr skyrocketted when i started playing him and it got to a point where i started getting the harder teams every time, where i really had to sweat to catch people, if at all. And after a few losses ill get a streak of survivors who last seconds rather than minutes who also never use the turrets together which would be uncounterable for me, and all the hard teams use that tactic. So im at this point where i have a 50% chance that im against people who arent able to play against xeno at all, and the other 50% is people who play against xeno so well i can barely do anything lol.
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I believe most ppl play too casually, so there is no pressure on BHVR to push out that much needed MMR rework. Doesn't rly make sense since MMR should exist for the more competitive minded players, and yet it's exactly those ppl who notice the awful system the hardest. The system is obviously constantly compensating for losses and wins, to keep the killrates where they want it to be. Problem is that it creates a stomp or be stomped system… People are endlessly chasing that high they will never find.
ps edit: I recently did my own MMR experiment as a 2016 veteran with thousands of hours. It rly is bad and that MMR rework should be a priority imo. All my findings are pretty much alrdy spread throughout these comments and post, so I won't repeat them :) Bottom line is that obviously ppl that play enough notice the same patterns.
Here is an example of one of my play sessions: Yesterday I played mostly survivor, kept getting ghouls, blights and nurses. So the system finally decides I had enough sweaty top tier killers, it throws me a complete potato baby killer. The guy barely had time to finish setting up his traps when the last gen popped… The system is truly horrendous. It creates frustrations on both sides.
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I noticed the same trend with Wesker, where I mostly got matched against full comp tryhard teams, with full meta builds one day, and the next day, I was back at facing baby survivors. There is like nothing in between those two extremes.
Also, when playing Myers yesterday, I played a few matches normally, and got okayish survivors, but then I switched to Scratched Mirror, and got put into a game with 4 players who just installed the game, like their first match.
I mean, I have 1600 hours in the game according to Steam. I should not be put against people who has less than one hour of playtime.Also a reason why the game should not base MMR solely from kills or killrates.
Since I often play nice with the survivors after subjecting them to Scratched Mirror, I tend to let them go a lot, but I still go for my 8 hooks, having decent chases and everything.As survivor, I have not noticed a difference in killer difficulty, despite my high escape rate on survivor, sitting at a pretty unbelievable 58% on average over the past 30 days (65% on Sable).
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I agree that some players are lowering their MMR on purpose, mainly because they want an easier matches.
To be honest I also started to lower my MMR on survivor, but not for an easy win, but because I prefer a more chill matches than a sweaty ones on high MMR. Thanks to that I can experiment with new builds ideas and actually not feel pressure to gen rush in order to win. At the end of those matches I die anyway and I honestly prefer to have matches as survivor like that. Lose at the cost of having more chill and fun matches.
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I think this playerbase should put more pressure on BHVR to release the stats more frequently. And for sure more elaborate, cause the last time they showed stats was right after the Freddy rework and they barely showed anything. Am I the only one that wonders what they are trying to hide? I bet the problems we talk about here are waaaay bigger than we even suspect they are.
Just like Crazy_hyena above me posted their survivor stats screenshot… I too have over 60% escape rate, even tho I play exclusively solo and see nothing but ghouls, blights and nurses… but apparently we are waaaaaay above the average player? at least according to their latest survivors stats. Make that make sense… It's like we are playing a completely different game. I refuse to believe I am that far above average with the horrific experiences I have in this game…
Since they allowed us to see our own stats now on the DBD stats page… I wonder what keeps them from posting all this data collectively, for all to see?
PS: I too lower my MMR on purpose (I use average hook rate as my win ratio). Cause if I dont, for some reason I always get pushed towards non stop meta lobbies. More often than not they will be SWF (I play on steam, I check profiles), sometimes even comp teams with a collective amount of hours over 30000…
And its not that I mind losing, not at all… but these types of lobbies make me feel so useless and powerless… can't even catch one of them, and even when I do they'll have a flash or sabo rdy… They are so coordinated that I suspect they are teleporting to always be in the right place at the right time, while also cranking out all gens in under 5mins… Like, why am I going against this on a B-C tier killer with meme build :D?
Edit: See this is another main reason why I keep my MMR artificially low on purpose, just play for hooks. Since I made this comment, even tho I know better at this point, I thought I'd go all out again on one specific killer, Ghoul, … ppl gave up fast and thus I had a few 4ks in a row. It only took a FEW matches like this, like 3, then I got into another lobby with a blatant cheater. Could not even keep up with this speedhacker while leaping… Some P100 Dwight…
It's absolutely insane how you can jump from one extreme into another in the current MMR system… Cheaters is one of the main reasons I don't want to be in the top bracket. See a flying Dwight literally every few matches, its insane.
Match after that: full Russian Ace SWF with meta perks and styptics… 3 MATCHES IS ALL IT TOOK to fall into this top bracket.
And the point is that I can't handle these lobbies, so why am I seein them? The system just compensates 3x easy wins with unwinnable lobbies… Why is there no in between ever?
Post edited by Munky on1 -
Doesn't rly make sense since MMR should exist for the more competitive minded players
Do you realize if MMR doesn't work properly, casual players have to play with comp one? How exactly MMR supposed to harm casual players? Showing their rate?
Edit. Okay. I didn't really get your message first. Reread and mostly agree, sorry
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As soon as I was about to achieve above 50% escape rate I can have really sweaty matches against killer. But I’m not really sure is it related to MMR, or I just started to play past midnight on London servers. Just a feel that the most comp survivor and killers are living close to EU region. Even Asian ones are more chill (maybe because actual comps from there playing other assym game)
Hoping from one country to another gave me really diverse experience of what players can be. The only region I didn’t tried yet is Canada, USA and New Zealand.
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Just a feel that the most comp survivor and killers are living close to EU region.
You are 100% correct. I have noticed significantly more sweat in the EU region. That goes for both killer and survivor.
The US servers are typically more chill in comparison0 -
The typical US experience:
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Taming a Krasue. Our greatest achievement
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Twins was pretty nuts. Clown is the next summit.
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