According to the Data...
4 Man SWF is only 11% of matches worldwide and their escape rate is only 2% higher…
Discuss.
Comments
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I get down voted for reposting collected data… interesting.
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inb4 "well in high mmr" copium like mmr isn't some made up fairyland thing in this game
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That is also invisible, enabling people with big egos to imagine they are in the highest echelon.
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Yes, you got downvoted for posting private collection data that is used to push an agenda, rightly so.
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4-man SWF escape rate across all MMRs is actually lower than solo queue LOL. The only outlier here is high MMR 4-man SWF and that makes sense. Coordinated, experienced teams are very difficult to deal with and get more than 1-2 kills, especially if you’re not playing with S-tier killers.
I draw two conclusions from this: 1) solo queue is not nearly as bad as some people here make it out to be. I can speak from experience on this as well as my lifetime escape rate is 43%, and probably higher more recently as I was much worse in my early days than I am now. 2) 4-man SWF really only “breaks the game” at the high MMR range. This makes sense as coordination alone really doesn’t help teams win consistently. It’s coordination plus the ability of every survivor on the team to take killers in extended chases.
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As opposed to just using your own personal experience and the (completely unverifiable) anecdotal experiences of others you see positing on TikTok and other forums to draw broad conclusions about game balance?
Some people love to dismiss the stats because they don’t support their preferred narrative. But these same people never suggest any alternative or better way to draw conclusions about game balance other than “solo queue is not fun for me and also I saw some people on TikTok say that they don’t have fun in solo queue either”.
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Interesting, the high MMR actually makes sense. Still less then 50%. SO even at the highest MMR 4 man SWF still slightly favors Killer?
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The data is from Japan and all the relevant people have benn talking about it. Seems relevant enough to me. I don't think the data is skewed. I appreciate the reply for high MMR data. Which still shows the game slightly favoring killer.
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Yes, and that’s what a lot of people, especially people who only play survivor, have a problem with. I can understand where they are coming from because everyone is going to have a different opinion on what the target kill rate should be.
Just my personal opinion, as someone who plays both sides about equally (actually a bit more as survivor) the 60% kill rate / 40% escape rate feels balanced to me. I remember when kill rates were lower before the infamous 6.1 patch and playing killer felt much worse than it does now. A lot of other killer players clearly felt the same as I remember 10-15 minute survivor queues every single time I would play in the peak evening times. Now, the survivor queue times during peak hours seems much more reasonable. I still get instant killer queues, but survivor queues are usually no more than 5 minutes.We’re never going to get broad agreement about whether the target kill rate should be 60% or something much higher or lower, but it’s a lot easier to respect differing opinions when they come from players who have the experience and perspective from both sides.
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I dont disagree. I think the game actually has to favor Killer for game health. But the solo survivors will suffer for it. You have to accpet the challenge of the hardest role in the game as Solo.
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Checks out with the previous stats we got on the matter.
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Well it's very easily verifiable, go take a look around, outside of your created echo chamber. This forum is constantly flooded, despite you trying to downvote them, with people sharing their awful experiences in SoloQ; steam forums the same, reddit the same, tik tok the same, pretty much every single digital space, even popular content creators lol So yes, I draw my conclusions from a collective of the community who plays the game and not from the company who flops at trying to develop it lol
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Thats forums for ya. If they don't like what they hear, they downvote, even if the information is factual.
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Personal experience is a valid data point to consider for anyone. If someone has an absolutely miserable experience playing solo queue they should what, tell their brains to stop lying to them because some black box data analysis says balance is fine? They're actually having a great time and totally not being steamrolled?
Assume a situation where the stats showed a perfect 40/60 split on escape/kill rates. What if those escapes required the survivors to fight tooth and nail to achieve their escape and those kills were a killer face rolling their way to victory - would you still call that balanced? What if 60% kill rates were a result of high mobility killers having 80-90% kill rates being averaged against low mobility killers having 5-10% kill rates? The game would be balanced by coincidence because of which killers people chose, not by design.
I do think if anyone wants to be a data/statistic devotee to these stats then they need to be that way for both sides. If someone thinks a 40% escape rate means survivor is fine, no further questions needed then they really don't have a leg to stand on if they want to argue killer is 'weak'. You don't get a 40% escape rate without a 60% kill rate.
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Problem is what this games consider "high MMR". There are many videos about this but the soft cap of MMr is very easy to achieve.
The 4 comp surv swf is the same "high mmr" as 4 friends that won some game again some killers. The same applies to killer as the pig main that plays casually is in the same mmr bracket that the comp nurse doing winstreaks or Momo's blight.
Really, the matchmaking is so atrocius that is hard to discuss balance with data since what BHvr calls "High MMr" players is so heterogenous that its hard to draw a solid conclusion from it.
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Yeah, unfortunately from what I recall when we had a better MMR that reflected the skill gap, ques went too long. I don't know what the answer is. Is it more important to wait for a good match or just get in a match?
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You're looking into the downvotes too much, there is always gonna be someone who is being negative haha
No I do think it's valid to point it out, coz there is a lot of casual 4 mans who aren't good at the game too, the most toxic assumption this games community has is everyone in a 4man is tryharding lol11 -
Nature of the beast on these forums unfortunately.
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I was honestly shocked that it wasn't higher. I thought 4 man's were much stronger. As somone else pointed out high MMR seems to perform better but still under 50%.
There are some variables like swf is less likely to leave somone behind. So could their escape rate be higher? Possibly but by staying for their teammates they can end up giving more Kills.
When it comes to the "high MMR" there is even debate there between who is actually skilled and sweaty or just casual.
The game does feel sweaty and repetitive. I personally play a lot of meme and side quest builds but it often feels like I'm throwing and should be sitting on Gens.
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The 4man boogieman is not real. You don't become good by playing on a team. You might just be a potato on a team of other potatoes who like each other. The truly skilled 4mans are rarer than people act like they are.
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That's me and my friends, lol. We don't really 4 man anymore but Lord, we were bad, lol!
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I feel like that mostly just points out that people are more likely to troll and mess around with friends. It can also be indicating an increase in altruistic actions that result in extra deaths. A random on hook during endgame is more likely to get left for a 3 man escape while a 4 man SWF will risk it all.
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Tbh, i play with friends in comms and we escape much more than we should just because we can coordinate saves, chases and gens.
Although not every single 4man is absurdly skilled we can't denty how strong coordination can be in this game. You don't need to be very good at chases to win games in DBD if you are in comms.
But its also true that the top tier 4 man Swf are a rare thing, the same as top tier nurse and blights as rare too.
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Yeah, I'm split between this.
I wouldn't mind waiting more as survivor to have more balanced matches but i don't want to spend an eternity on queue to get a single match. A very strict MMR would kill this game considering how long queues would be.
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I also feel like people confuse bully squads with squads that escape alot. Often times the squads that make things the most frustrating to play against arnt the ones with high escape rates. Its the ones that'll take the time to put a blast mine on a 99% gen instead of just finishing it and working on another gen.
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20% of the player base doesn't like the truth, it messes with their narrative.
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Honestly I think that example in particular is memey. I have friends that do this and aren't malicious at all, they just think it's funny and have a light-hearted approach. The true bully squads are players who live to terrorize low-skill killers. I haven't seen one since I was new because they stay lower MMR on purpose, or if I have, I smashed them so thoroughly I didn't even notice.
I agree to some extent, it can be helpful, but parties come in so many shapes and sizes. I have some duos I join up with a lot that are absolutely detrimental to my ER. I accept I'm dying 10 matches in a row if I take the invite. They're too aggressive and they piss the killlers off. I'm kinda trying to repair my ER right how from how much time I spent getting killed with them. It's also not uncommon for the comm chatter to be about anything but the game. It's sometimes more a distraction than a help. Too much laughing makes me miss skill checks.
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I don't mind the potato squad, as long as we can have fun games together. And that is the true purpose of SWF.
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The devs balance for a 60% kill rate. So that's actually quite bad when compared against their target.
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Behold, our unstoppable 4man:
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A friendly blight? No way
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I think the data only tells one story. I think it's accurate, at least via my own stats. But I also think that that doesn't mean the game is fun nor in a good place. So maybe Killers are only guilty of the exact thing they accuse Survivors of—being too caught in their feelings with the game. Maybe they still get the 3 or 4k often enough, but the path to getting there feels like they're having to fight for it and that's not fun for them.
I'm tempted by the swimsuit but it looks too much like a ken doll in a diaper 😭
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That's true but this is an overall data point. Some Killer's are at a 60% with lower Killer's bringing the average down.
Don't get me wrong, it probably should favor Killer. If Killer mains aren't able to control most of their games in the power role, Killer's will burn out and we have no game.
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I'm tempted by the swimsuit but it looks too much like a ken doll in a diaper 😭
Just wait until I get that blonde Rift head.
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We're on a mission to befriend the whole roster. We even managed Twins, Krasue, and Chucky. Sadako and Clown are gonna be hard.
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Dude same. But I'm still staring down the Rift and that price point and I dunno if it's gonna happen lmao
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There are three characters in it I use and I still wouldn't have gotten it if I hadn't had the cells to recycle for the last one. I also know I'll get it done. I'm more hyped for the free Felix costume than the Rift.
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True. Bully squads can be annoying but most of the time they end up dying most of the times.
The real "sweat squads" are those who brings Toolboxes, Brand New Parts and Syring and try to complete the gens as fast as possible. I don't know why but this kind of team has been increasing lately (at least in my region).
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Same
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This right here. I feel this is such an important aspect that isn’t talked about enough. It’s almost as if many feel that if they were to admit that killer is the stronger, more successful role, then that means that the role is fine and doesn’t need help. 2 things can absolutely be true at once. Killer can still win more then they lose but also still not enjoy the role in its current state. And in the same way, survivor can still lose more than they win and still not enjoy the role in its current state. I feel when people try to deny these actual statistical facts, because of a possible fear of their feelings of dissatisfaction being invalidated, that it’s how things turn so seemingly personal, and those get stuck in a constant cycle of denial, tribalism, and some kind of a battle of “my problems are real but yours aren’t.”
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A big part of that too I think is how anecdotal the game can be. For instance, I was in the 20-percentile escape rate last 2v8 which was apparently pretty rare, but my perspective on that is very different from someone that was escaping the majority of their trials. But where we can meet in the middle is that the mode still needs some work.
Additionally, I think the psychological aspect tends to dominate the conversation too. Someone feels inadequate playing the power role against 4 people that aren't on their side only to come to the forum, get a downvote, and feel like the whole world is against them. That's not something anyone can control, but it's still a very important component to the discussion.
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Yes, those psychological aspects are a very good point. It can be very stressful trying to voice your feelings or fears about any given topic when you feel as if the risk of those pushing back against it are very high. This might be a bit of a tin-foil bit on my end, but I feel as though nuance and communication has suffered deeply in our Wild West digital age. The courage people have to say things under the guise of anonymity online can result in devastating consequences or the admittance of one’s most vulnerable moments in time. I feel those that venture on the forums and actually interact have a different kind of investment in this game then probably the majority of players who are likely very casual. So it goes without saying that everyone here is very passionate about the game, and passionate about their experiences and their solutions to things that they believe to be problems. Because for the most part it’s the community who defines what is a problem or not, which means everyone is wrong and everyone is right, until BHVR steps in to give us those clear answers (something that occurs very rarely , I feel).
Anyway, sorry got a little lost there but yes, I agree with you and I can only hope that things improve in the way our community respects one another and considers the various psychological differences we, as individuals may be experiencing.
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Very well put, I agree.
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God forbit 4 man swf make any mistakes, don't play on full voice coms or just play chill, right?
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I think its a combination of factors
1: The data was excluding low scoring games. I'm not sure exactly what their line is here, but the worst soloq experiences might be excluded from the data set.
2: SWFs aren't automatically strong. A group of friends playing together is going to be hampered if one of them is much weaker than the others.
3: It showing MMR actually working. If a group of players are a skill of 5 of 10, and they become a 6 of 10 when playing together, eventually MMR will match them at the 6 level, balancing it out. It only is at the extreme this would get out of whack.
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Isn't high mmr just the soft cap? If that's the case everyone who's even top 66% is in that category. It's def not 2k mmr plus, that's an extreme oddity for survivors to the point that the sample size for survivors would be far too low to draw real data from.
I could play one game on spirit who I haven't played in years and be above soft cap if I won.
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The Ace squad has a very high charm-factor ;)
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Problem is what this games consider "high MMR". There are many videos about this but the soft cap of MMr is very easy to achieve.
IIRC, the 'high MMR' bracket from stats is different from the soft cap. I think it was clarified once that it represents less than five percent of the playerbase.
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Last time they showed stats as "high MMR" they've shown the 1800 MMR (the soft cap) against the 500 MMR (the newcomer MMR). Unless they are tracking the highest of the MMR probably its just the softcap stats.
Edit: in the most recent data they stopped saying "5% of the MMR" as they said in the 2022.
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Thats looking at the average, the point is when you bring in high MMR SWFs it skews massively in favor of survivor.
Imagine if there was a killer with a 70% kill rate, they'd probably nerf that killer, and they did when it was skull merchant (despite the fact that i still think her stat was becuase people gave up against her)
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