Why do they never address why killers actually tunnel ?

Ah yes, the dreaded SWF and the proposal to punish people for playing with their friends. Being in a SWF doesn't magically make the generators go faster, nor does it automatically translate into a loss for the killer, nor does it mean that they're Team Eternal.

To call it out like it is would be to say that killers tunnel because they can. They don't need a reason to tunnel; it's simply more efficient to do so.

Yawn You know as well as I do why SWF is op and why it's ruining game balance with the entire laundry list of game mechanics they circumvent for Killer and how much they get from comms and even the lack of comms, you just don't care because it benefits you.

The team doesn't have to be Team Eternal, I play with friends who are literally awful, beyond awful, but we often win just because we are in discord and are able to make callouts that are impossible in SoloQ… things that ruin a Killers playstyle, mechanics and perks. Then I play SoloQ and it's literally the most miserable experience possible through lack of real matchmaking as well as how outright toxic the Killers are. The difference is night and nuclear explosion.

Because of basic maths? As long as DBD remains an 1v4 game (aka forever and ever), tunneling will always remain a prime efficiency strategy for killer. That's just how it is.

It's funny because the more people I'm in a party with, the less serious I play. I'm only dead serious in soloq, but in a 4man, it's butt slaps and memeing.

I really wonder what people think they'll achieve with this scapegoating. All people do is complain about how miserable soloq is. Is the goal to make everyone as unhappy as they are?

Of course this post gets voted down more because the survivor players are always biased towards one side and so are the devs

I got banned for saying "this is incredibly stupid, do you understand what you are doing?" was this mean? Yes. Is it true that these devs are making very unorthodox decisions that can have adverse effects on the games long term health if it isn't balanced with the precision of a brain surgeon? Also yes. Please not that I am still banned at this moment in time.

SWF aren't overtuned for the game. They have no mechanical advantage over SoloQ.

Even comms aren't inherently advantageous. You have to know to communicate effectively to get the most out of comms. The enjoyability of SoloQ is entirely irrelevant. As for DCs, that depends on matchmaking.

SoloQ has a wide variety of skill ranges, with as wide a variety of reasons why someone might be playing badly. The baseline average is MMR. At Low - Mid MMR, a team of SWFs cannot be distinguished from a team of SoloQ players unless they do something very obvious to highlight that they're a SWF or SoloQ.

The perception that SWF is overpowered stems from years of anecdotes based on a handfull of games. Hardly enough to form a definitive conclusion, let alone an accurate data representation.

The fact that duos lose more than SoloQ players (-0.24%), while Trios only barely win more than Solos (+0.22%) shows that overall SWFs are not overpowered. They may win more at high MMR, but that's because DBD was not balanced for high level competitive play where efficiency and optimal play are the fundamentals to winning.

Problems arise when you have a full SWF, but I would hazard a guess that most full SWFs are playing to win, especially at High MMR.

As for DCs, Bhvr takes them into account by not including them in kill rates. They absolutely have data on DCs, though. Data they're not obligated to share.

The idea that the only possible strategies for killer are tunneling, camping, and hit and run is detached from reality. Hit and run is a strategy even more brainless and more boring than tunneling/camping and should be as discouraged as possible

Medkits copped a nerf specifically to keep hit-and-run in.

Then your question just dives into an irrelevant, theoretical situation.

'Well if everything but chasing is nerfed…'

But that's not happening.

'And is the playstyle I described the wished one?'

Evidently not, since Hit-and-run is still in the game and no one complains about it. Also, while 3-genning can no longer lock up a match for 60 minutes until the server time-out hands the killer the win because it erroneously assumes that only survivors can run the clock out like that, it's still in the game as a viable tool.

It is a simple question and yes it is theoretical. (I didn´t ask what the devs are doing but what the survivor mains which are clearly unhappy about these tactics would say is the perfect playstyle for a Killer)

Now after that is clea… IF all aspects which are condemd to be lazy, cheap or boring to face are removed. What playstyle is left?

I mean… We've already talked about hit-and-run and gen defense.

I get that you really want to create the notion that there's nothing the killer can do except committed chases, in an effort to make survivors appear unreasonable, but that's distinctly not true.

I know you like your "whataboutism" facts

I'm sorry, but it's incredibly hypocritical to accuse someone else of whataboutism when I'm specifically responding to your

'Well, what if [thing that isn't happening] were to happen, hm!?'

You're 'whatabouting' about a scenario that you, yourself have admitted is completely fictional.

Also, I don't recall ever interacting with you so 'I know you like your 'whataboutism'' makes it sound like you're either cliquing or ban dodging.

which Playstyle would be the "optimal playstyle" for Killers which would survivors like to see so that they can say "Yes this game is balanced".

If survivors cared about balance, you'd see a lot more complaints about the 60% KR benchmark that the devs are aiming at, because it's an admission that the game is being balanced against them.

You could even design the anti-tunnel in such a way that killrates increase and you'd probably not hear a peep, unless it goes overboard. But tunnelling chops off huge components of survivor gameplay, making for stale and boring matches, and people are tired of it. People are quitting over it too, which is why BHVR wants to take action.

There is no singular desired playstyle. There's multiple ways you can play that survivors enjoy going up against.

Just not tunnelling, slugging, camping, or a 60-minute lock-out.

You are still dodging my question.

You say there are multible ways that a killer can play except Tunneling, Slugging, Camping etc. but you won´t say which.

We literally already talked about two!

I'm not gonna take your hand and walk you through every complexity that DBD has to offer. I'm not even the most competent killer player to give you that advice. But I've already told you about two tactical elements that you are now claiming I've never mentioned.

I said I am afraid that the playstyle the game boils down too after all the things which you say are not the desired ones is: Killer chases Survivor A till he is hooked. Goes to Survivor B and repeat.

You already said this isn't happening!

I know this is what you want to be happening because that way you have something to be outraged about, but it isn't. The devs have already taken action in the past specifically to protect Hit-and-Run as a playstyle, for example. And 3-genning is still a viable tool, just not to run the clock out for the full 60 minutes. They specifically stated that they erred on the side of caution and chose a gen-kick number that is well, well above the average. (In conjunction with boosting the value of each of those kicks)

If there is more please enlight me.

I already did. We moved past this point. To revert to it now is purely disingenuous.

This is what I mean! You don't WANT an answer, because that'll get in the way of your hysterics!

Yeah, sure, Legion, take the most egregious example of not just perma-injury but perma-MENDING and just omit any other example of hit-and-run.

And Skull Merchant was SPECIFICALLY a problem because of running the clock, which I already mentioned IS off the table.

Be honest with yourself: Do you WANT any answer other than 'No, I want you to play like a bot'?

But you started with an extreme (all the killer strategies being eliminated) and are trying to work back from that to a more neutral discussion, that kind of poisons the well.

If I started off with 'when loops are eliminated, pallets are eliminated, items are trashed, healing is impossible, what do killers expect survivors to do' - its starting at such an extreme that then getting healthy response is very difficult.

Anyway, I think Firellius answers you here:

There is no singular desired playstyles.

I want, both as survivor and killer, an adaptive game. Were every game has its unique differences and its not just a repeat of what has happened before.

The worst offender of this, in my opinion, was the face camping Bubba. People would respond with 'just do gens and leave'. But there was no point to playing a game like that.

3 genning merchant was the most common community complaint and its a good one. Even if you had a plan to take it down, it was like doing a spreadsheet, not playing a game.

Tunneling is another extreme. Its the optimal strategy. So if you hit tunneling its like 'okay, we wait to the last second to unhook, body block, and do gens'. The best games of DbD, on either side, create scenarios were it is extremely unclear what the right play is (its also the reason I think the game has survived so long in comparison to its competitors).

So I want basically all of those aspects to be part of the game. Personally, I don't think even tunneling should be totally out of the question but it should come with heavy costs.

And this isn't even unique to survivor, its the same with killer.

Survivors should be able to loop. Does that mean some loops have been too strong? Of course.

Survivors should be able to do gen focused builds. Does that some builds have been too strong? Of course.

Survivors should be able to heal? Does that mean some healing builds have been too strong? Again, of course they have.

Anyway, I hope that is clear, you're asking what the desired play style is. There isn't one, on either side, but some styles do become too strong and/or boring/repetitive and need to be addressed. There's no overarching rule you can put in place, each game element needs to be discussed on its own.

I want to go away from the us vs them and ask openly to the other side. What do you want?


It's not an open question if you've already filled in the answer yourself and refuse everything else.

Atleast some people which give opinions.

I understand that in a perfect world this would be the optimal game. But how do we archive that. Do we cut chases short or will the gen speed being increased? Not all Killers are able to go for this at the moment. I threw the Idea into the room that maybe Killers should be rewarded if they hook each survivor once without hooking someone twice. So there will be a reason to spread hooks.

Do you think it would be a possibility if the reset happens after the unhook? Instead of getting endurance alone the get healed? Keep the endurance part because one shot killers exist?

To be fair if you prefer to play stealthy you should have no problem with tunneling or slugging because you try to avoid the killer or am I mistaken?

People on this forums want killer to brainless commit chases until the match is lost or they hooked everyone twice before they start killing.

Really, people tend to ignore macroplay and want to killers do it too.

I will give you right. It is not fair how I made my question. But I am still curious how a good game should look like.

First one says it should be a close game

Second one says it should be a game with 8 hooks before someone dies.

One wants a fast paced game the other a stealthy one.

I just wanted opinions so you can discuss with me. Open my eyes or see flaws someone else didnt think off.

Thats why I said okay if tunneling, slugging and camping are removed what is left.

I got examples from @Firellius that Hit and Run and 3 Gening is still an option. But I don´t think that if the Meta goes that way survivors would be happy.

But if these playstyles are ######### too and let Survivors deinstall the game, where is the line?

We all kmow that people are never happy and I am afraid that If you give the children candy it wants more.

It feels a bit like the time as Skullmerchant got nuked. After BHVR nuked her because the complains got to loud it was okay for a time. Then some people on twitter and this forum demanded lets give ghoul the Skullmerchant treatment and BHVR will nuke him. Or an example for the other Side lets complain about Fog vials till BHVR nukes them.

I think too that a good anti Tunnel or Anti Slug should exist. But when we start to nerf these "Strategies/Cheap Tactics" where do we stop? Is a dead survivor at four hooks tunneling? Or only at 3 hooks? Is tunneling two survivors out at hook 5 and 6 enough to nerf tunneling more?

Thats why I asked, what is in your opinion a good survivor game? Cause I can´t know that. I try to recognize patterns here and I am really afraid that this game will not be balanced at all but just the side which is crying louder gets their feet kissed.

Chasing survivors normally, genius

pretty much this for me too. except i know in 90% of my matches if i dont tunnel straight off the bat im getting steam rolled. i found in my killer matches if i ease back on the tunneling and only do it when i see gens fly, by that point the damage is already done and its still too difficult get the match back in my favour. Hence why i tunnel at 5 gens. when the swf teams i go against do gens efficiently and im tunneling from the get go its usually a close match. This issue is when either i hold back on the tunneling or survivors hold back on doing gens one side gets steam rolled.

i agree, but thats the reality of it. i dont play blight or S tier killers and im getting frequent SWF teams time and time again. i play stealth killers or pyramid head. maybe if i played S tier killers i wouldnt have any issues