Tunneling & Slugging Update is basically worthless!
I swear so many people are going to stop playing this game, multiple PTB’s just for tunneling and slugging to NOT go through! This is the biggest issue survivors are having right now and once again you listen to your biggest playerbase (Killers) even in the community stream there was nothing but killer mains in the chat when they asked to tell them which side we mained, nothing will ever change, this is so ridiculous - survivors i honestly think we need to stop playing this game and play something else. BHVR literally does NOT care about the community as a whole, they just want to make sure they keep the other side happy.
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Try playing killer for once. And I mean really play it.
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Is it tho?
Is it the biggest issue? I play survivor in solo q and 95% of the time and I just…cannot agree with the hysteria which is going on for the last 3 months now. What I see is survivors disconnecting for literally NO REASON like there's no tomorrow.
THAT is an issue. Especially in solo q.
People acting like every freaking trial is a Blight hard tunneling out the survivors one by one…and it just is not the case.
I am getting more and more confused by this community because it seems like I play a different game that for some weird copyright reasons is called Dead by Daylight as well.
Yes, I play far less at the moment, but the reason is that I am just overfed with 2v8 and then there is other (singleplayer) games I really enjoy at the moment.
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Try playing killer yourself. There's a player controlling the killer as well the game can't just favor survivors. If you punish the killer role for just doing their objective, then the survivor players should be punished as well for doing theres.
Best way for survivors to counter tunneling and slugging is to stop D/C over every pity thing and get good at looping and knowing what to do but with solo que you're stuck with random team mates that act like they don't know what to do.
There's a huge difference between survivors that know what to do and how to loop vs a team of potatoes that won't even touch gens.
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maybe we dont d/c over every “pity” thing some of yal killers deserve the d/c yal tunnel like noobs, still camp and slug its going to continue to be a issue and they not gone resolve it. You cant just say get better at looping, even if you are good at looping 90 percent of the time most survivors dont escape this game will continue to be killer sided
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Yh about that…
Also I would love for you to show what "good looping" looks like.
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If you punish the killer role for just doing their objective, then the survivor players should be punished as well for doing theres.
Survivors already are. Co-op penalty, shrinking playing field, and a bunch of perks getting stripped in EGC.
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Survivors aren't being loud enough. The feedback from the last two ptbs has been dominated by killers screaming, crying, and ripping out their hair. The forum has been heavy with them trying to direct the narrative by threatening to uninstall because of things as minor as pallets or tbagging (and it's clealrly working). You're going to have to match that overly-emotional intensity if you want to achieve anything.
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People still quoting this worthless site. We literally just had the Japanese stats that showed the kill rate is over 60% without games with disconnects being counted.
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It's not that simple.
The pallet density thing wouldn't be a problem if the gap in power between killers wasn't so astronomically big. Sure, it helps survivors against some of the top level killers like Blight, Billy, etc. (not by a huge amount, but it's noticeable). But is also renders a majority of the killer roster exponentially weaker than they already were. It hurts the weaker killers far more than it hurts the strong killers. That's the problem.
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First, I'm not saying the pallets don't need adjusting. I'm actually deeply indifferent. They're not hurting me as killer. My last 30 days I've played as Wraith, Spirit and, mostly, Dredge, with no pallet-break add-ons or perks and I'm sitting at a 78% KR. So the problems other people are having just aren't happening to me. I'm also at a 39% ER as survivor, so they're not helping me there either.
My point is there are people saying they have thousands of hours and they'll quit the game over an update that's new and will clearly get nerfed. These sort of hyperbolic (and, I'm sure, disingenuous) drama displays are so embarrassingly over-the-top but somehow super common. I'm always hearing the word "adapt" when a new overtuned killer comes out yet the adaptation only seems to be expected of one side.
And the pallet thing is one example. Survivor mains on this forum tend to be mostly thoughtful and poignant and what they need to be is obnoxious and loud.
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Survivors are often told to "adapt" because at the end of the day, they are just skins. They all play the same, do the same thing, etc. They are balanced among each other because there is no uniqueness, therefor it comes down to individual skill (what what perks they chose).
Telling killers to "adapt" isn't so simple because every killer is different and functions differently. Because of that, a new thing (perk or playstyle or whatever) that survivors get may be flat-out un-adaptable because of how a particular killer works.
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Actually Killers adapting would just be not playing weaker killers. Which is sort of the fundamental problem with the changes BHVR was testing on the ptb. They hurt weaker killers who need help far more than they hurt stronger killers who have the tools to deal with everything survivors have access to.
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BHVR is trying to keep both sides happy (as much as this is possible). People often forget that a lot of players play both sides and they want a game that is balanced for both sides. Many of the prominent voices in the community also play both sides, so they understand when certain things break game balance, especially at higher skill levels. You’re making this an “us vs them” thing as if every player either plays only survivor or only killer. BHVR needs to listen to people who have experience playing both sides, not those who exclusively play one side or the other.
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been playing. What now?
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Yet those identical survivors are often told to bring perks to counter the identical cheese tactics of many killer players, which are used regardless of who they're playing as. So that advice can be flipped here. If pallets are an issue for you, Fire Up, Brutal Strength, Spirit Fury, Hubris, Enduring, and Dissolution can all help to use the sense of safety the pallets give them against them.
You're still trying to shift this from my point though, which is hyperbolic responses, not just the pallets. The current post about why killers would install the game is so overstuffed thin-skinned crying about quiting over any little thing. You don't see this level of emotion from survivors nearly as much.
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I'm not shifting from the point. I have nothing to say about it because I agree with it. Hyperbole is a problem that BOTH sides are guilty of. Don't act as if survivors don't do the same. They screeched and cried so insanely hard they got a low pick rate, mid-tier killer completely gutted into the worst killer in the game for no good reason.
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There is no update. The wah wah baby killer mains mah mah'ed and now BHVR is debuffing survivors. Pallet density is being reversed while killers like superbuffed myers stay exactly the same. Get discord and join a swf. Only way to escape now.
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The hyperbolic leanings go in waves, but the killer waves tend to be more intense. And it's been a long while now that we've been in one. There will be a sight shifting now that survivors are getting nothing, yet again, but something tells me it won't last long.
If I recall, the SM nerf was also implemented because of her inflated KR matching the complaints. I somehow doubt the complaints about pallets are syncing with plummeting KRs. Much like Fog Vials, they're probably more annoying than anything, but will likely get the nuclear treatment just the same.
Yet that's a good example of a killer who wasn't that popular to begin with being cried almost daily on the forum (and now it's being addressed.) There was even that incident of death threats toward an employee during the anniversary event because of a silly comment about SM. If someone said "Zarina sucks" I don't think the response would be as severe. I don't understand these attachments people form towards these individual killers, especially when they haven't even been around that long. There are 41. Pick another if you don't like where one is at. It's an advantage survivors lack. They can't just pick another character who will get tunneled or slugged less.
Kaneki is still complained about and people DC just hearing his terror radius, and he's been overtuned for how long now? If there were daily posts in the forum and other social media platforms, maybe more would happen faster. I see styptics in my matches a lot. I'm sure many are very unhappy with the upcoming change. Where are the 30 posts about it like there have been for pallets? Survivior simply aren't as persistently loud about their grievances. They quiet down and accept things much faster.
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Which is based off BHVR's versions of stats and when they try to establish a tunnelling definition he forgot on stream so I don't consider them to be great either.
Also the Japanese stats have a lower kill value compared to the rest of the world by a decent margin showing that unless the Japanese player base are just better at DBD then there has to be a better reason for the worlds kill rate on the fault of the surv side.
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Then revert the pallet changes and Nerf the top level and buff the low levers literally Blight has been S-Tier King for 4 years proper balance needs to happen
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I play in many Asia region, and in my experience Japanese Survivors are actually the weakest compared to other Asia Regions, like Korean and Hong Kong….
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As long as the door is wide open on broken gen speeds, there can't be restrictions on "tunneling" and "slugging."
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Thankfully, they've already put several limitations on gen rushing and a huge list of nerfs to keep it in check.
So fixes for tunneling are long overdue, even by your standard.
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As long as you keep buying cosmetics, nothing will change. That's the reality of it.
I've always had a theory about that, and it comes down to what sort of personalities are drawn to what sort of role. I think introverts are more likely to drawn to the survivor role. They're generally more passive and reserved and don't like to make waves. When they don't like something, they leave quietly. Meanwhile, extroverts are likely more drawn to killer. They are naturally outspoken and don't care about making waves. When they don't like something, they have no qualms about speaking up.
There's obviously outliers and this is a generalisation. For example, I'd consider myself an introvert and I now prefer killer to survivor, but it's definitely a distinction I've noticed over the years.
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That feels like a rewriting of history. I've been in the thick of this forum for a long time, and there was unanimous agreement among survivors and killers that old SM was bad for the health of the game. The only ones that defended her were the ones who saw no issue in wasting people's time by locking games down for an hour.
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I play until the end no matter the odds and role I'm in.
Stop whining and do your best every match and if you do get tunneled use the opportunity to improve and go to the next game.-12 -
THIS!
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Also the Japanese stats have a lower kill value compared to the rest of the world by a decent margin showing that unless the Japanese player base are just better at DBD then there has to be a better reason for the worlds kill rate on the fault of the surv side.How do you come to that conclusion?
Maybe they are just worse at killer. I think a more logical explanation is the increased amount of players who play on console and killer is harder on a controller than survivor is.
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The Asia region has a pretty strong healing meta, so much so that self care is usually in the top 3 perks used despite other regions not using it as much (sometimes not even top 10).
Which would indicate the matches are slower.
I've also heard from a small number of people on here that particular region also doesn't have near the tunneling meta.
So, one interpretation is that tunneling isn't "necessary to win" and could be limited by the devs and not have catastrophic consequences like some people claim.
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I get a ton of backlash for it every time, but I'm saying it again—it won't happen because as cocky as Survivors can absolutely get, their ego is nowhere near as big (in my opinion).
If you see how Killer mains behave when they congregate anywhere, they always feel incredibly victimized over the slightest things. I've seen people threaten to do drastic things to themselves over bagging at the gates. There is an unhinged desire for control. NOW let me say: if this does not apply to anyone reading, don't take it as such. I'm just saying, it's been my experience across multiple platforms.
How does someone with genuine concerns about game balance or someone experiencing burnout compete with that? I'm not entirely sure myself. BHVR has already started to set the precedent that they can replace Survivors with bots and other Killers via the interim queue (I'm just gonna call Play While You Wait that lol).
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As long as you keep buying cosmetics, nothing will change. That's the reality of it.
It used to be, but not anymore in my opinion. I feel like the cosmetic sales have dropped off, at least that's the feeling I get from the latest Rift.
The real life-blood has always been licensed chapters. If all of us solemnly swore to not buy any cosmetics or chapters for the next 3 months, or even took it a step further and decided to stop playing altogether, they would just have to release Resident Evil Part 3, Silent Hill Part 2, or FNAF Part 2 and we'd be replaced in a heartbeat. And if those players leave? Do the same thing again. Eventually some will stay long enough.
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I've noticed certain patterns and trends too. My overall view is close to yours. I find survivor mains are mellow and thoughtful but defintely more passive and easily beaten down, and killer mains are louder and more prone to quick emotional crash outs and inexplicable victimhood. But I think those are the extremes. The people with more even personalities seem to either play both or just not take the game so seriously. But, from what I've seen in the forum, I think a lot of killler mains are extreme introverts and the power role is a way to break free of that, and things that infringe on that fantasy hit them hard.
I can attest to your assessment though. I waffle back and forth between roles and currently don't know what I prefer, and I'm probably one of the most unapproachably quiet, cold, unfriendly introverts you could meet but will be loud as hell and say the most outrageous things once you know me. So both generalizations apply.
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DLCs are definitely the lifeblood, though I feel survivors are bigger cosmetic consumers than killers. That's why for every one new killer cosmetic there's multiple for survivor. I feel like DLC consumption is probably higher among those who play mostly killer. Survivors are ultimately just different skins while new killers offer a fresh experience. I could be wrong though.
Yeah, maybe introverts and extroverts are the wrong distinction. I guess passive personalities vs assertive personalities might be more accurate?
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i cant take a meg seriously 😆 the irony is just to good here
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I can't even express a quarter of my view or I'd be banned lol but I think you and I are pretty aligned on our views on the mentalities of a certain flavor of killer main. I've seen some downright mental instability. The fact that something as goofy as tbagging actually makes many behave differently in-game blows my mind. The persistent victimhood is the most intriguing part, and it does make me wonder about people's real lives. I'm dying for a psyche study on this game's players.
And yeah, I don't know how you compete with it. My fire comes and goes in waves and sometimes I feel physically exhausted with this fight. But even though I play this game every day I don't attach my identity to it, as some people seem to.
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Being @Nazzzak @cogsturning and @UnicornMedal have given their theories, I'll jump in on why we see such reactions. I used to have a list of ten reasons, but I'll narrow it down:
1: No one likes to win a game that was rigged in their favor. By design, the killer should kill more than the survivors escape. And even if you are really, really good, it still hurts knowing the designers have their thumb on the scales and it undermines the worth of winning. It's why you get arguments that act like comp is the only level that matters, butchering math, and things like Trapper vs 4 person sweaty SWF (while the memeing soloq vs sweaty Nurse is ignored). Simply, its a defense mechanism.
2: Killers have nowhere to go but down. I think this is what leads to the doom saying about changes even as BHVR says they'll keep to the 60% KR goal. If you're taking a lot of pride in long streaks and a huge win rate, and BHVR changes things and it plummets, but the overall KR stays relatively the same, it will make those earlier 'successes' look fake.
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I think now we can objectively say the game is killer sided with this years changes.
- Fog vials complained about until basically useless
- The Ghoul is unchanged even with numerous complains about how unfun he is to verse
- anti slugging and tunneling changes not coming to the game meanwhile killers keep buffs from it like seeing hook counter
- Healing nerf coming again
- off the record nerfs (even tho we not getting anti tunnel)
- Slow down buffs to killer (Grim , Ruin)
- go next prevention (not allowing survivors to attempt on hook and go next that only effect the survivor side, not if for example killer gives up and afks )
What buffs have survivors got in 2025?
- pallet density that is being reverted but just wanted to mention it as its the main one I see complained about on here
- Abandon feature that only works when you have lost (as it should but its not really a buff just a get out of match faster)
- I Think faster sabo speeds but cant find a source if it was this year or older change
- (adding this even tho its just a new good perk) Conviction the perk
- nothing else that I can think of.Post edited by random1543 on11 -
I want to hear the other eight.
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How is that a logical conclusion, console is harder so it must be that killers are worse? Japan has more soloq players btw and still has a lower kill average vs world despite soloq being so supposedly terrible so its most likely a mentality among Japanese players.
Which if true would mean that globally, surv entitlement is the issue.
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I'd buy the argument that Survivors are more passive if complaints about Legion in 2V8 weren't so noisy that BHVR felt a need to remove them from the mode. While I think BHVR mostly listens to whoever shouts the loudest and Survivors are more than willing to speak up and make their voices heard, they rarely have prominent voices fighting their corner in the big issue balance discussions. That's the biggest difference, imo.
When I look at Survivor main content creators, they tend to post videos featuring goofy comic moments or value from a silly gimmicky build. They generally don't make balance discussion videos. Killer main content creators seem to make a lot more content of this nature. Then you have the "both sides" mains who are often really Killer mains at heart. Their preference is for playing Killer and you can see it in their body language when they play the role which matters most to them. These content creators are the ones I think BHVR should be most wary of, because their bias is not so obvious and their takes might seem more "balanced" when compared to others. When these guys make Survivor content, it's often to highlight something on the Survivor side that they don't like. They might not even be aware they're doing this. Obviously I'm generalising a lot here, but I think content creators have an outsized impact on the game and we know some of them are also part of the consultant program.
Content creators who can mobilise their viewers to flood discussions with their own talking points are frequently the biggest obstacle to meaningful changes and way more impactful when it comes to BHVR's decision making than the opinions of average players. This is especially true of the very casual players who probably don't even know these discussions are happening. Some players might not even know about the two anti-tunnel/anti-slugging PTBs we've just had. I honestly think a majority of the play base would have liked a lot of what was on offer in the recent PTBs, but that stuff was never going to make it past veteran players with their distorted experience of playing the imbalanced mess that is high MMR DBD.
I think every voice BHVR will hear is biased to a degree and there's nothing inherently wrong with that. I might play mostly Killer these days but I'm still a Survivor main in my preferences. Killer is fun but I can get that first person view power fantasy itch scratched playing a 100+ other games. But Survivor in DBD is a unique experience and I just desperately wish it was more enjoyable because there isn't really anything else like it out there.
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Killer victim complex has been around since like forever, just like calling survivor players entitled then having the most entitled balance opinions yourself. Ironically, some things never change no matter how much the game balance shifts.
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Killer IS harder on controller than mouse and keyboard, that is a fact, and if more killers are playing on controller it IS logical to expect them to do worse. Your claim that player mentality differences are the cause is the illogical one. Unless you have a mental link into those players thoughts and feelings about the game you are just making things up. The only place I have ever seen claiming that mentalities differ comes from content creators who obviously have an incentive to glaze themself and the people they play with.
Other more logical possibilities
- Hit and run is a more common tactic, which does worse than camp/tunnel
- Ping, the Tokyo server is centrally located and covers a significantly smaller geographic area, it is common to see killers with 100+ ping in NA which gives them a major advantage
- Smaller playerbase, with how piss poor matchmaking is a smaller playerbase makes it more likely you will be paired with other decent players
Ultimately, the kill rate is still close to the 60 percent mark that BHVR shoots for and unless BHVR releases stats for every region we can't even be sure its actually an outlier or just on the lower end of a bell curve.
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Can I just address the disconnecting issue?
I feel like people missed a trick here, survivors weren't dc'ing much before the proposed changes were walked back the first time.
It's pretty much something they're doing now in protest.
I've had people do it against me before hooking anyone (I play about 5% killer, wesker, huntress, not crazy strong killers), and on my team on first hook.
It's not an isolated thing, it's intrinsically linked to the promise of resolutions to tunnelling.
And yes, the solutions as they were probably should not have gone forward but the whole idea should not be binned either.
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It's an issue, but when so much is given to stop tunneling and no incentive to not tunnel in general when the whole reason people tunnel is cus of gen speeds being ridiculous, you can understand why these haven't gone through a second time now. Granted, the first iteration could've gone through with removal of punishments and number changes easily
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@FerrousFacade covers this pretty well with a few more points, but I'll just add on:
People are people, across any large sample size you are unlikely to notice a statistically significant difference in skill without some external cause.
Broadly speaking, to account for the difference, you have the possibility that something uplifts their survivors compared to the rest of the world, or something pulls down their killers compared to the rest of the world, or some combination of those.
I think its illogical to presume that the Japanese survivors are just better players because, if true, why aren't their killer players also just better? And if the world players are worse in comparison, why are their killer players also just not worse?
Now you could have a less skills based argument: something like the meta being superior for the survivors and maybe Self Care is an S Tier perk that the world is sleeping on. But now we've opened the possibility that the killer meta is also just worse given their aversion to tunneling.
However, far more likely is an external cause. As I mentioned, its harder to play killers on controller then mouse and keyboard compared to the survivor equivalent as much more likely Occam's Razor explanation. FerrousFacade also throws in some other good possibilities. I'll even throw in that there seem to be a lot more bot farming Doctors that could be pulling the numbers down as that seems to be unknown around the rest of the world (not sure if it is a server enforcement issue or differing markets).
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Maybe if you guys actually learned to looping Killer and learned how to counter Slugging without bring every Second chance perk none to man kind and stopped being so damn entitled and Learn.
Ur DCing doesn't solve nothing. It only makes the experience worse not only for Killer but mainly ur Survivors who are also playing.
If you want to make the game better than Try to make it better for all players and not just Your Side of the game.
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I stopped playing this game because my effort as killer simply didn't matter much compared to survivors who had to and still HAVE to put significantly less to get a greater reward. You're telling me survivors should have gotten like 7 perks base kit post unhook, anti-face camp turned into straight up anti-camp and pallets everywhere? Any survivor now can legit just slap on windows and go on a 1.5 minute chase easily as long as they have the basic understanding of what game they're playing.
There's a reason why Asian servers rarely even use anti-tunnel because they realize they're playing a PVP game and agree that the best form of anti-tunnel is being good at chase.
I sure like to play the game as a weaker killer when a survivor has 3 health states off hook and exhaustion. Did they do anything necessarily skillful to earn their exhaustion or second chances? No but they still buy as much time as killers get back from running 2-3 slowdown which *most you need to earn. The math just doesn't add up.
Also at least on nightlight kill rates are falling to the 40's with Freddy being the ONLY killer hanging by a thread at 60%. I just wonder what BHVRs own stats would be because I bet they aren't far off.-10 -
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Facts
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