Slugging and tunneling
Are we ever going to get anti slug and anti tunneling? They are still a big issue and its odd that those proposed changes were scrapped all together instead of being tweaked.
Comments
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Respectfully, they are not the issue. The issue is that, instead of teaching players how to play their overwhelming game, BHVR gives buffs to the Survivor role that won't make any difference if, as mentioned, players aren't taught how to play the game.
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honestly agree. Too many survivors enable tunnelling by unhooking too early and they need to be held accountable rather than just removing that challenge from the game.
Kinda same with slugging really only exceptions i feel are certain killers on small maps. Otherwise its usually a result of bad positioning-12 -
Agree 100%. As killer I’ve gone against a ton of survivor who had no problem whatsoever dealing with my attempts to tunnel or slug when I was falling behind in the game. I’ve dealt with it plenty of times on the survivor side as well where either I or my teammates were being tunneled and we either lost only one survivor or everyone got out because the person who was being tunneled didn’t go down immediately in every chase and the others were doing gens like they are supposed to.
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No, we wont. Whenever they will try something, people will just spam the Forums and Social Media. Asking for Anti-Tunnel or Anti-Slugging will just get you the silent treatment from the Devs, because implementing things and tweaking them are not an option anymore nowadays. Kneejerk reactions are the way they are doing things now.
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The reason people "spam" such platforms is because those changes are unhealthy for DbD due to how they make an already stressful, punishing role even more so.
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No, they don't. Killers enable tunneling by going straight back to hook once they hear that unhook notification so they can immediately chase the unhooked Survivor again. And with all the Killers that have mobility and teleportation nowadays, waiting to unhook makes no difference. The Killer will be riding their bumper again in a heartbeat.
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I know you're not implying that Killer is the more stressful, punishing role, because that couldn't be further from the truth.
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Let me outright say it, then: Killer is a more stressful, punishing role than Survivor. I could gave a crap-ton of reasons why that's the case, but all I need to say, for the sake of brevity, is that said fact is supported by mathematics: Killer = each person having 100% responsibility for each mistake made, while Survivor = each person having 25% responsibility for each mistake made.
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That's called punishing mistakes and getting rewarded for it. Y'know, something that usually happens in online pvp games?
Mobility options doesn't really change this. Just wait until they are chasing a survivor across the map, you will have enough time to unhook and move away from the hook before they get back.-10 -
All of this is valid Survivor counterplay that's punctuated by the existence of many strong healing perks.
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And yet a single mistake from a single Survivor can literally hand the Killer a free win. That's one of the frustrating things about Survivor, is how everyone loses when one person makes a mistake, which is out of the others' control. At least some Killers take comfort in knowing that they only need to rely on their actions alone. Killer is less stressful because they only have themselves to worry about. And all the comeback mechanics, of course, both in basekit and in perks.
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So you're implying that unhooking a Survivor at any time (not just "too early") is a mistake. But unhooking Survivors is what we're supposed to do.
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Not only that, the killer is the 1 playing against the 4 in the 1v4. Playing alone against 4 equal players is always more stressful and difficult than being one in a team of four bullying a single enemy player. This is the most essential source of stress in playing killer, and it can't be fixed completely, only remedied by making this lonely role more powerful with in-game mechanics. People who don't think Killer is more stressful than Survivor have never played Killer long enough to get out of the baby MMR bracket.
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One person's mistake only causes a loss if the rest of the team continues making such mistakes. As such, Killer is more stressful because a player is alone.
What comeback mechanics?
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What comeback mechanics?
Well, tunneling and slugging, for starters.
Then you've got windows being blocked after so many vaults in chase, pallets being broken, bloodlust, Survivor perks being deactivated in endgame.
Perk-wise, you've got NOED, No Way Out, Blood Warden, Remember Me, perhaps others I'm not remembering from the top of my head. And the new Killer perk (Turn Back The Clock) that regresses completed generators when only one remains.
Meanwhile, if Survivors lose a teammate early, there's nothing to help them recover from that.
"Killer more stressful than Survivor" my ###.
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My explanation for Blood Warden's counterplay shouldn't have a question mark, but the site won't let me edit it out.
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Calling the base-kit endurance and haste you get off hook a second chance while saying window blocking creates balance is wild. It shows a ridiculous level of bias towards the killer role. Why should the killer be able to down a survivor before they have even managed to move after being unhooked? How is that balanced?
Tunneling and slugging can absolutely be used as a comeback mechanic, just because they can backfire isn't a counterargument to this capability. I have tunneled and slugged to stage a comeback and it regularly works and I would bet you have as well.
I agree that the killer role is more stressful since the game is solely on you but at the same time I make far more mistakes on the killer side and then still win than when playing survivor. The game inherently favors the killer role, the only "math" you need for that is the overall kill rates. Even high MMR four mans have a below 50% escape rate.
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I countered the comparison to tunneling and slugging to the base-kit anti-tunnel mechanics, not compared what you said. Don't misrepresent my words.
A come-back mechanic is something that guarantees a second-chance. Strategies can earn someone a come-back. There's a big difference there.
Those rates, alternatively, the kill rates, don't include when a Survivor gives up. The math there isn't reliable.
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They are not comeback mechanics like base-kit endurance and haste that guarantee a second chance.
Your words not mine, I haven't misrepresented anything. You are quite literally calling the base-kit endurance and haste a second chance and a comeback mechanic when its non-existence leads to the survivor being downed instantly off hook.
A come-back mechanic can take the form of something guaranteed like the gen speed changes in 2v8 or it can be a strategy the killer could employ to try and swing the match back in their favor. Tunneling and slugging, when not done early, absolutely fits that second category. The fact they can be employed early into the match is why they are so problematic.
Those rates, alternatively, the kill rates, don't include when a Survivor gives up. The math there isn't reliable.
I rarely actually see a survivor give up until the game is already so heavily out of their favor that them giving up doesn't matter. I'm not saying it never happens but it is rarer than its made out to be. Any match with a DC is also ignored from these stats so most of these matches are not counted in those rates. BHVR can also ignore any low scoring or extra low MMR match in their stats if they so choose. Its what they did the last time they gave us the top five killers by overall kill rate. They didn't include any match where the killers MMR was below 500 (we really do need a better understanding of what that 500 means though). They have also previously released stats that didn't include "low scoring matches," AKA the ones where survivors all give up early.
Whichever way you slice it the game largely favors killers. Yes this is killer dependent and I would even agree that the absolute top level favors survivors outside of a couple killers but I doubt either of us are at that level. Pick your favorite killer creator and scroll through their most recent day of playing matches and actually count how often they win vs lose. You will almost certainly find they win more than they lose and by a considerable margin. If you are not putting up the same numbers they are you can improve. I don't expect everyone to be on that level but then they need to stop expecting to put up the same results.
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^ this guy gets it
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You said I compared base-kit endurance and haste to window blocking. I said that I didn't, partially by stating what I actually did. I will not continue to engage in such a flagrantly dishonest discussion.
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I appreciate the support.
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Well the topic went in a different direction, but no, we're probably not. I find it hard to believe that they spent time designing new UI elements, changes to custom games, perk overhauls, and there were like 'haha, nope' - but that's BHVR.
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We didnt even get the anti-4k slugging mechanic so save to say no.
Because killers need to be easy and make survivors suffer while survivor needs to be hard, because it needs a load of experince and knowledge just to even do the basics of avoiding 3 gen or how to loop.
I would just avoid soloq at all because its clear they dont care, just play in comp swf ideally or play killer.
The 15 bt was just a pity price which they are still complaining over all the nerf and useless survivor perks we got.
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If you want anti tunneling and anti slugging in the game to punish killers for playing their role then there better be something to punish survivors for "gen rushing".
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You
Tunneling and slugging are strategies that can backfire. They are not comeback mechanics like base-kit endurance and haste that guarantee a second chance.
Windows being blocked and the ability to break pallets prevents the existence of infinites. In other words, they create balance.
Me
Calling the base-kit endurance and haste you get off hook a second chance while saying window blocking creates balance is wild. It shows a ridiculous level of bias towards the killer role.
No, I didn't. Read my statement again if you need to. I simply stated that those two takes together show a considerable bias. You got any actual arguments against anything I said?
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"Because killers need to be easy and make survivors suffer while survivor needs to be hard, because it needs a load of experince and knowledge just to even do the basics of avoiding 3 gen or how to loop."
Perks like Deja Vu and Windows make this, and all of what you've said here, discreditable.
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Are we ignoring that killers would have gotten additional basekit regression in the PTB? The system wasn't perfect but it would have been tweaked if it had been allowed further testing.
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Wouldn't the best solution be to just remove the unhook notification sound.
I have seen so many times that killers will actively drop chase with someone as soon as the unhook notification go off.
As someone who plays killer without relying on tunneling people, this change won't affect me, personally.10 -
As this thread proves, it won't happen. Call it "us vs them" all you want, but Killer players and Survivor players operate very differently. Whether it's intentional or not, certain Killer mains will lie about their experience and what they want in order to fulfill their ability to maintain a 4k average* (*against active players). It doesn't matter what the Survivor experience is like at all or what it needs to be able to function. That is all secondary to making sure Killer feels better. There isn't any more evidence you need toward that between 2022 and 2025. We've seen Survivor play styles struck down where they stand while camping/tunneling/slugging is still going strong. In fact, we've left efforts to improve that behind while still maintaining Survivor nerfs that were meant to even it out.
If this were true, we wouldn't still be arguing about gen speeds. They're proof that Survivor is still resilient and can improve against the odds. At some point, it's not all their fault.
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On the topic of which role is more stressful
I've always found it an interesting topic, especially because of certainty people have over their feeling and disbelief from others.
Personally, I'm on the survivor is more stressful take, win or lose killer doesn't seem to have nearly the nerve racking nature.
Reasons I have / I've seen over the years
Team nature vs solo:
As a solo, I want to win, but if I don't, live and learn. On a team, if I let my team down, that's devastating.
Uncertainty
As a killer I see the gens, the hooks, right from the start. Survivor, all of those are uncertain (including even what killer). In soloq I never know for certain what the other survivors are doing.
Who to blame?
I see lots of blames on bad teammates. Like 'why would I stress if the team is playing bad'? I instead focus on what I could have done better.
Gamesense
I've never found the killer gamesense particularly taxing on tracking the 4 survivors, especially compared to guessing at what the other survivors might be doing. Making a call on something like 'do I go for the save, or stay on this gen', seem much more difficult and taxing than the killer calls.
Never feeling safe
As killer there comes a point where its like 'I've got this in the bag'. The end game is rarely tense. As survivor, playing both for my escape and others, there is always the possibility of being caught or losing another survivor.
Expectation of winning
Does the 60% KR and fact that the killer should win make it more or less stressful. To me, less. If I play 5 games and lose 1, draw 1, and win 3, I don't focus on the 1 loss. On survivor escaping a match feels like an accomplishment, which makes it getting taken away late very stress inducing.
4v1 or 1 stronger
I think there being 4 survivors creates an impression of strength that I don't get. As killer I'm faster, I have a power, I have the advantage in every 1v1. The fact that there are 3 other survivors doing gens doesn't detract from the advantage there (see gamesense feelings)
Control of the flow
As killer, if survivor is headed for a strong loop, I can just drop to another one. The killer controls what happens. As survivor the best I can do to interfere with the killer is try and body block, I can't force them into a chase.
Basically - everyone is different and gets different feelings from the roles.
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that was the thing. all the crybaby killer players looked past the really good basekit buffs they were gonna get and all they did was avert their eyes and complain about what survivors were gonna get out of the update. as someone who tries very hard not to tunnel as killer, the basekit bbq and pop would’ve been AMAZING. but no, since killers can’t hard tunnel with free will and no repercussions, the entire thing had to get scrapped.
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You're a Survivor-biased liar who completely ignores how anti-camping and tunneling protections got implemented in the first place and were recently buffed, as well as how that role has received other protections like extended hook timers. All of this while PTBs and presentations that further punish and villify Killers get created. In spite of these protections, a number of players from that role still complain about how they don't have enough. If anything, such players don't improve.
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We could do something like putting slow downs on teaming up on a single objective (multiple survivors on a gen)
We could make it so the survivors have to spread out (can't just focus on one gen)
We could make it so accomplishing part of their objective makes the next stage harder (each gen completed giving the killer less gens to defend vs an elimination making the killer side easier)
We could even put unnecessary objective for the survivors, and give them strategic reasons to do them or not (say 7 gens but require 5 to be done, and make them decide whether better to spread out or focus)
Basically - we do that already. Punishing the survivors for doing their objectives, giving them pros and cons to various approaches, is already baked into the game.
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1. It's the killer who chooses to go after the unhooked, who did nothing wrong, instead of the stupid unhooker. Killers are also capable of making choices.
2. Going after the unhooked is punishing the wrong person. No one learns something from someone else being punished. When they lose the match, they dont go "it's because I unhooked too early." The game isn't teaching them that's an issue.
3. Killers can swerve mid-chase and zoom back to the hook to tunnel even if you do everything right.
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Here's what actually happened. The first ptb dropped and killer players pointed out that the basekit pop and bbq largely helped S tiers like nurse and blight more than the killers who really needed it. Then the penalties for tunneling were far more punishing on the same weaker killers. People even suggested doing basekit pain res.
Then the second attempt just removed practically any buff killers would have gotten for not tunneling while just giving survivors stronger defenses which had it's own problem.
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Camping is more viable than it was. I've been camped into second/death or had it happen to someone else more since the update than I had in months. The extra 5s of Endurance are a pity gift compared to real measures and only help in end game. We also just got a killer capable of instakilling you right off hook in the right circumstances, and hitting someone right after unhook makes the time of Endurance irrelevant anyway.
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for the first one oe the second one because both times they giga buffed survivors nerfed the killer perks and gave tiny compensation the 1st time (which wouldn't do anything and makes high rank unplayable there was a reason why they aaid you can turn it off in customs) or the 2nd time where they said "killers felt it held their hand too much" (even though survivors were carried by the 1st changes) and just gave killers bloodlust 1 effectively making it even more useless
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Too be fair, a lot of survivors are acting as if they are divas, out of 5 games i played yesterdayas killer to, complete the mission issued, and to try the new killer, i didnt intend i kill anyone, but people were acting up in 2 of the games. the first game 1 DCed on first down and 2 others refused to play, they just walked i circles the whole game.
And one of them, even if i let him go went crazy in chat.
I ran into that same guy in the next game, and he just stood still the whole game, giving me a copy of the same endgame chat after the game.
I did not play sweaty in any of the games, i didnt have any addons, but i wanted a few hooks, its my first time playing Vecna-the first, so im not good at him at all.
Post edited by Sp00kyb0b on-5 -
As I said they weren't perfect but instead of being allowed to iterate and make the necessary changes everything got thrown out when I honestly think they would have ultimately made the game better if they had been allowed to test them longer and make those changes.
One developer made one mistaken statement and the whole community takes it as an attack (the "evil" skull merchant was a joke in case you couldn't tell), guy isn't a community manager or a PR person and are likely working off third hand statements mis-communicated to them. Cut him some slack, going in front of the community like that wasn't in his job description until recently.
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the comments getting the most vote downs are wild this forum feels more survivor sided lol
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And I've seen as many get like this on the killer side. Which you see more of is entirely a question of which you play more. I had a springtrap throwing their mouse around at the exit gate as they got three outed recently. I thought they were just being funny until they started spouting slurs at us in endgame chat.
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you can't make those changes either unless you tone it down to uselessness (like the afk crows and fog vials) because those changes were so damaging to killer it made it unplayable for the average killer and even then in order to compensate you would have to giga buff killer to such an extreme way there wouldn't be a point not to mention the base bbq and the nerfed pop is what the devs thought was proper compensation which shows their mentality and how far removed they are to killer issues
you can't say "evil skull merchant" as a developer not even as a joke because it reveals your bias on the survivor vs killer mentality on dbd just cementing yourself on the survivor side on a giga buffed survivor ptb. the devs are supposed to be impartial (personally i never thought they were with the buffs survivors got over the years and nerfs to killers and gen regression)
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I mean, you could've gotten that...but most didnt want it....so a talk with them.
I would love for the game to be more casual and heavily reduce the skill and knowledge celling in exchange to nerf meta stuff but.... 🤷♂️
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This wouldn't have hurt them nearly as much as killer content creators made it out to. What it would have hurt is their ridiculous win streaks. It would have resulted in more buffs to lower tiers and ultimately would have hurt the high tiers more than the low tiers, it just needed time to get there. It wasn't perfect but with tweaks like something more akin to pain res and a better mobility tool it would have worked. It didn't even actually get rid of tunneling, it just made there be an actual tradeoff to doing so (which itself needed tweaks). A nurse can tunnel someone out 10x more efficiently and effectively than a trapper, they take advantage of it more than anyone else does.
If you can't take a joke like that in a video game then you have a victimization complex and should maybe look at why you think the developers of a video game are out to get you. Just look at how often they showcase dwight as being a scaredy cat hiding in lockers and how little reaction that gets. You are just showcasing your own bias by solely looking at changes to the survivor side and ignoring the changes to the killer side. Kill rates still favor killers despite all the protests to the contrary.
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Killers might have gotten base kit buffs to gen regression but at the cost of nearly all gen regression perks getting nerfed. Not really a net buff for killers but a shift in power so they're not so reliant on those perks.
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Deja vu doesnt prevent other people from getting your team 3 genned.
windows doesnt make you auto loop, alot of killers dont even get effected by loops, punish survivors for holding w to yellow or punish survivors for predropping,
It doesnt teach you to counter powers or how to checkspot.
You still have to deal with zero communications.
Oblivious and undetectable.
Camping, slugging and tunneling.
Your own fun (if you use all 4 perks to just play the game, you know you wont have fun)
Hex perks/totem spawns.
Or other niche perks you got no clue about.
Sure, you could blame your teammate but then you shouldnt complain about swfs abusing the meta or mechanics like dying on pallet and hovering to save while using flip flop power struggle. Because you want survivors to play like that if you nerf soloq or let soloq rot.
Which, i know no one wants. But probably wont say outloud and just want survivors nerfed to the ground, i mean, you are getting your wish and are seeing the results from kaneki and gutting fog-vials.
The same 4-8 perks while using BNP toolboxes.
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i was playing the ptb it was disgusting how strong survivors were since the game played itself at that point because high tiers at best could maybe get a 2k and low tiers got destroyed since if you killed a survivor before 6 hooks you can't kick gens + they got a gen speed boost, hooking a survivor gave them elusive (which was basekit otr) + 30 second bt + 10 haste for 30 seconds on top of the hud lying to killers it was so easy and free for survivors 1 guy coud die on hook for the other 3 to get a free game. did you play killer during this time? because it sounds like you didn't
i can't take a joke like that when i'm playing a pvp game where both sides goals are opposing each other and when one side gets buffs it's a nerf to the other side also kill rates as far as the official rates go is 40 survivor (48 for swf) and 60 killer the goal the devs are aiming for. also i do have a killer bias since this game is an asymmetrical 4v1 game if the game swings too heavily in favor of survivors the game dies like all the other asyms since without a killer you don't have a game (unless the devs just have killer bots play)
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