Damn playing a low tier killer is Horrible right now.

I think the real problem here is all you play is solo like most players. You very strongly come across as someone who barely ever if at all play 4 man in a competitive nature. Its very hinting that you haven't played killer at a higher level as well once you give all your post a nice read.

why did you use good reason, why did you say all the data, why did you emphasize those words?

Because that sentence explained why BHVR keeps a target, not the mechanic being argued. Grammar analysis isn’t a gameplay rebuttal.

at a certain point, you either need to answer it, or admit you made a mistake.

I answered it repeatedly, it was context. Nothing about the mechanic depends on how bold a word was lol.

your doing far more to try and shift the argument away from what you claim is the argument than I am.

Were currently debating adjectives instead of generator efficiency, that kind of answers itself.

gen perks have the same benefit here - you do gens a little faster, but the tradeoff is that you lack the ability to do something else.”

Thats a perk-slot tradeoff, not a coordination argument. Coordination still increases uptime and reduces wasted repair time regardless of which perk is equipped.

again, you're saying things everyone already knows. But this is true for SWF and soloq.

The difference being how reliably those efficiencies occur. Coordination changes consistency, not the perk description.

how are directly and consistently relevant?

Because “getting back to gens faster” (heals, saves, chases) is indirect throughput, while repair efficiency affects the rate of objective accumulation itself. One is a return path, the other is the finish line.

directly - if perks heal quicker, make longer chases, etc. they either get survivors back on gens more quickly or let them stay on gens.

Exactly — back on gens. Thats indirect. Repair efficiency changes how fast the gen itself moves once your there.

consistently - some perks provide consistent value in every match (Deja Vu), some provide occasional but large value (unbreakable). This is true for both soloq and SWF, if anything the latter type of perks are far easier to get value from in a SWF

If value is “far easier to get… in a SWF,” then coordination is already affecting how reliably that value converts into match progress, even if the perk description itself is identical.

a rebuttal to what? You've basically given up on everything that seemed to be an argument as just context.

The argument never changed-
coordination → higher repair uptime → multipliers stacking on that uptime → faster objective completion.

Everything else has mostly been a long side quest about wording — entertaining, but it still hasnt repaired a single generator.

Lol, now that I point out how these "top killers" perform it isn't good enough. My personal experience is way less limited than yours. I play solo survivor and low tier killers, you play swf and ghoul. I'm playing this game on hard mode, you're on easy.

It's not an assumption when you stated you swf, brought up ghoul, and have top500Spiderman as a username. The only question is if you solo queue, a topic you have ignored.

I've watched enough to know how a coordinated swf functions. If I wanted to I could find one tomorrow and slot in without issue outside of possible personality conflicts, they really are not doing anything that complicated. Move around the map, take chase, do gens, play for saves, take advantage of perks, call stuff out. Most of this I do solo anyway. This game is just not that complex and there really isn't any way someone with experience in the game could misinterpret anything. It's all incredibly straightforward.

According to most the soft cap is not hard to hit. If that's actually the case then I am above it on both sides, that is as high level as you can get in this game without going comp. I have played against what appeared to be coordinated teams and both won and lost to them, same goes for players with 1000's of hours. In every match I lost I played poorly. My kill rate is still above 60% on every killer I have a reasonable amount of time in despite thinking I'm just ok, then again I am comparing myself to these "top killers" not the average kill rate.

Look at all of my arguments, they are all focused on trying to convince you that solo players are better and more efficient than you claim. That comes from a lot of solo experience, I am relying on that experience to make these arguments.

I think the funniest thing about this whole argument is that in most other threads I would be applauded for saying that solo queue players can play well and be efficient. Just here is it a problem.

Which was the problem. I’ve told you countless times that this was never about whether solo players could play efficiently or not. It was about the level of efficiency and coordination that differs between the two. You just can’t seem to understand that because that would require stepping into a realm of play you don’t have experience in, so you feel safer arguing whether they can play efficiently or not, ignoring the actual argument.

You are the one refusing to understand. The better solo players are and the more efficient they are the smaller this gap is. That is what I have been arguing this whole time, the gap is smaller than you think. I said agree to disagree earlier because it became incredibly obvious you were refusing to understand this or even acknowledge that this is what I was arguing. The gap in efficiency is so much smaller than you make it out to be, you just don't have enough solo queue experience to see that.

Overall, I feel like you’re overstepping your actual experience and making assumptions about what you could do or what you think you can do when it’s clear you don’t have experience in a competitive 4-man setting.

There is absolutely nothing difficult about hopping onto comms and telling each other where you are and where the killer is and calling things out and acting with that additional information. Unless we are talking about an actual competitive league (which is totally irrelevant to public matches) you don't have real experience in a competitive 4-man either, because public matches are not competitive, as I said before, matchmaking does not allow them to be.

That’s not enough for you to be credible in these discussions, especially when you already admitted it. And honestly, saying you’re an “OK” killer followed by saying you only play low-tier killers, then claiming you think your in the high mmr bracket is something i would take with a grain of salt. Especially given how you frame your posts.

I have enough experience and knowledge to be credible (notice that I never called you not credible, I simply tried to show that you have a gap in your knowledge and I asked you to consider filling it). The soft cap is not high mmr, and if it is then matchmaking and every stat we have gotten from "high mmr" is well and truly useless and absolutely none of this matters because every stat about it is including far too many players under "high mmr." I am above the soft cap on both sides, based on some of the people I have been placed with and against, I would still hope I am not being included in "high mmr" on the killer side but if I am then none of the stats are worthwhile for anything. If people couldn't be above the soft cap but just OK at killer (and same for survivor) we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place because as you can see from "top killer" streams "gen rushing" doesn't actually work against them, they still win. There would also be a light at the end of the solo queue tunnel where you are only paired with good players, that doesn't happen.

As I noted 40 → 48 isn't the real gap, that number is based solely on escapes of high mmr solo players in any match not matches with four high mmr solos and as I and others have noted this gap doesn't just come down to gen efficiency that is an oversimplification. I have enough knowledge and experience to discuss this topic, notice how you were trying to claim I was trying to put you down based on your experience, I wasn't, you are. I communicate complex topics as part of my job every day, it really would be that easy for me to slot into a swf, they are not doing anything monumental, you are dramatically overstating the complexity of this game. You have no experience in a comp setting either, public matches are not comp, thinking they are is just silly. You may not like it but I am above the soft cap on the killer side, I have this experience, that I don't have killer sided opinions even though I am is your real issue.

You are dismissing my arguments without actually challenging them. This conversation is for sure over.

As I noted 40 → 48 isn't the real gap, that number is based solely on escapes of high mmr solo players in any match not matches with four high mmr solos

This is more wishful thinking.

I have enough knowledge and experience to discuss this topic

You openly admitted to saying you only play low tier killers and that you are an "ok" killer when you do play. You also said anytime you SWF you play with casuals, and you mostly solo Q. Unless were having a discussion purely on Solo Q. You really dont, but of course you have your opinions.

And what's even more funny is that somewhere in this discussion you mentioned ghoul being a issue in this game, now you admit you only play low tier killers. Your angle is just not reliable.

you are dramatically overstating the complexity of this game.

Quote me where I did.

You have no experience in a comp setting either, public matches are not comp

Public matches can be very competitive, again this aligns with someone who only solos.

You may not like it but I am above the soft cap on the killer side, I have this experience, that I don't have killer sided opinions even though I am is your real issue.

Given your earlier admission, I dont believe it but that's just me.

notice how you were trying to claim I was trying to put you down based on your experience, I wasn't, you are.

Trying to use a reversal just takes away the honesty in your conversation and ruins credibility.

You literally have no idea what you are talking about. If I never played killer and made claims about how killer was played you would rightfully take umbrage with it. You don't get to make claims about how solo survivors play when you don't play solo survivor.

Lol i guess you dont remember you said this right? You said i couldn't make claims about solo survivor because I didn't play it.

Your discussions aren't in good faith, and this is proof of it. I cant make claims about solo survivor, but you can make claims about SWFs at a high level when you dont play it?

I thought you believed that not having experience in the area means you cant make claims about it?? What happen? What changed? Is it that you got called out for your lack of experience and now its a different story? Its a problem now?

And what's funny about this, is that I never said i dont play solo, you did. Everyone has played solo. But you admitted to only playing swf with casuals, and only playing low teir killers and being a "ok" killer. Your not credible.

You are dismissing my arguments without actually challenging them. This conversation is for sure over.

The conclusion was already made, agree to disagree. But after reading your earlier admission of your experience. Continuing anything else about the topic would be meaningless…

Why did you ignore this?:

notice how you were trying to claim I was trying to put you down based on your experience, I wasn't, you are.

Trying to use a reversal just takes away the honesty in your conversation and ruins credibility.

You literally have no idea what you are talking about. If I never played killer and made claims about how killer was played you would rightfully take umbrage with it. You don't get to make claims about how solo survivors play when you don't play solo survivor.

Lol i guess you dont remember you said this right? You said i couldn't make claims about solo survivor because i didnt play it.

Your discussions aren't in good faith, and this is proof of it. I cant make claims about solo survivor, but you can make claims about SWFs at a high level when you dont play it?

I thought you believed that not having experience in the area means you cant make claims about it?? What happen? What changed? Is it that you got called out for your lack of experience and now its a different story? Its a problem now?

And whats funny about this, is that never said i dont play solo, you did. Everyone has played solo. But you admitted to only playing swf with casuals, and only playing low teir killers and being a "ok" killer. Your not credible.

address this ^

I play mostly low tier killers, that doesn't mean I have never played ghoul, he makes the game so much easier its silly.

This statement alone makes it clear you dont play ghoul and if you do its at a very low level. In higher lobbies survivors actually exercise his counters.

If you are arguing that matchmaking does create competitive matches

Im not about to get into the back and forth about opinions on matchmaking. If your in high mmr your playing at a competitive level, simple. Wether that be in solo or SWF.

A truly competitive game wouldn't shoot for a 60% kill rate in the first place, but since it benefits your preferred role you're ok with it.

I dont have a preferred role. I play both, and i enjoy both.

Of course you are just going to dismiss everything I say again because you are not looking for a discussion

You dismissed yourself with your own words.

If I never played killer and made claims about how killer was played you would rightfully take umbrage with it. You don't get to make claims about how solo survivors play when you don't play solo survivor.

Im just showing you i feel the same way about your lack of experience.

I did

That doesnt adress anything. Why do you feel like you have the right to make claims about high mmr swfs if this is how you feel?

If I never played killer and made claims about how killer was played you would rightfully take umbrage with it. You don't get to make claims about how solo survivors play when you don't play solo survivor.

You have no experience their.

Have you considered getting better so you can counter the counters

Every counter to ghouls counters involve ghoul predicting if a player will do it or not. Thats called counter adaptation its not a counter to a counter lol.

If matchmaking isn't going to create competitive matches then no it doesn't.

High mmr is high level play wether you like it or not.

You won't be satisfied with any way I address it. I went overboard and fessed up, I do not care if that isn't enough for you. Of all the things in this game "high mmr" (cause you totally know for sure) swf is the least different to the others and the entire time I was trying to uplift solos, who you underestimate.

Every counter to ghouls counters involve ghoul predicting if a player will do it or not. Thats called counter adaptation its not a counter to a counter lol.

Exactly man, get good. Killers expect survivors to win 50/50's with ease and regularity, so all you have to do is the same.

High mmr is high level play wether you like it or not.

Matchmaker doesn't care above the soft cap and will happily pair players with leagues different skill, that isn't a competitive match or high level play. You are literally arguing for us to take the 210 Trapper winstreak seriously and compare it to the 202 survivor winstreak, every killer is getting nerfed.

Because that sentence explained why BHVR keeps a target, not the mechanic being argued. Grammar analysis isn’t a gameplay rebuttal.

Wait, are we back to using BHVR as a source to back the argument? We all know that BHVR has a target, but you are now using them to describe why (which goes back to GOOD).

I answered it repeatedly, it was context. Nothing about the mechanic depends on how bold a word was lol.

This is a lot like your other arguments. You express a conclusion, and instead of backing the argument to the conclusion, you just keep repeating the conclusion.

@FerrousFacade was able to say one of his statements went overboard and moved on. It happens.

your doing far more to try and shift the argument away from what you claim is the argument than I am.

Were currently debating adjectives instead of generator efficiency, that kind of answers itself.

I don't know how what you type here is supposed to answer the idea that you are doing more attempts to shift away from the debate than I am.

Thats a perk-slot tradeoff, not a coordination argument. Coordination still increases uptime and reduces wasted repair time regardless of which perk is equipped.

The perk slot tradeoff remains a consistent issue a survivor would face whether SWF or soloq. If you're saying that isn't the issue, okay, great, onto the next thing.

The difference being how reliably those efficiencies occur. Coordination changes consistency, not the perk description.

Coordination provides an advantage, sure, that's been covered. How much of an advantage, or how much this should impact discussion of the game is also relevant, but sure, an advantage.

Because “getting back to gens faster” (heals, saves, chases) is indirect throughput, while repair efficiency affects the rate of objective accumulation itself. One is a return path, the other is the finish line.

Exactly — back on gens. Thats indirect. Repair efficiency changes how fast the gen itself moves once your there.

You're bolding things that have no purpose. Both things help a side get to the finish line. There are multiple gameplay elements and strategies that survivors can employ to finish the gens and escape. Of everything that a coordinated SWF can do that soloq cannot, the gen repair efficiency bonuses seem a minimal issue.

consistently - some perks provide consistent value in every match (Deja Vu), some provide occasional but large value (unbreakable). This is true for both soloq and SWF, if anything the latter type of perks are far easier to get value from in a SWF

If value is “far easier to get… in a SWF,” then coordination is already affecting how reliably that value converts into match progress, even if the perk description itself is identical.

Let's look at my quote - If anything the latter type of perks are far easier to get value from in a SWF. Which brings us right back to what I just said about this being perhaps the least unique thing on SWF/Soloq differences.

a rebuttal to what? You've basically given up on everything that seemed to be an argument as just context.

The argument never changed-coordination → higher repair uptime → multipliers stacking on that uptime → faster objective completion.

Coordination - at the extreme upper end, sure. Having a slight advantage at the upper end I think accounts for an 8% swing (and as I said earlier, the shocking things about the 8% is not that it exists, but its not higher given all the things that hypothetically a SWF has over soloq).

Higher repair uptime - we're talking efficiency on gens. Sure, again, coordinating saves, killer position, etc. and using perks to advance those goals, will all ensure survivors can stay on gens longer or get back quicker.

Multiplier stacking on that unique uptime - this argument has never made sense. The ability to be slightly more efficient in all aspects of the game all have an impact on improving the gens more quickly. As explained, if anything, this is one of the least unique things SWFs have over soloq.

Faster objective completion - this conclusion is not achieved unless you can show how the multipliers accomplish this.

You won't be satisfied with any way I address it. I went overboard and fessed up

I asked you if you felt like this -

If I never played killer and made claims about how killer was played you would rightfully take umbrage with it. You don't get to make claims about how solo survivors play when you don't play solo survivor.

why do you feel like you can make claims about high mmr swfs when you have no experience their?

You saying you went overboard doesnt answer that question its just a attempt to dodge it.

Exactly man, get good. Killers expect survivors to win 50/50's with ease and regularity, so all you have to do is the same.

Exactly? You said counter his counters, theres no direct counter to ghouls counters. It either involves you predicting or avoiding the situation all together which plays into the counter. Thats what you want as a survivor. So in this case your right, get good.

Matchmaker doesn't care above the soft cap and will happily pair players with leagues different skill, that isn't a competitive match or high level play.

This is just wishful thinking, high mmr = high level play, wether that be in solo or swfs.

There is no data on on it, their is indeed a soft cap but players have weighed there theories on its extremity much like @FerrousFacade . As far as I'm concerned high mmr is a pool of good players.

'My point is that in coordinated SWFs, gens move very fast even off completely normal chases because of how gen multipliers and comms stack efficiency.'

This has been said multiple times for the last 4 pages

And you have never backed up how gen multipliers have anything to do with that.

At the high end, coordinated SWFs escape more. You have never shown that gen multipliers have anything to do with that.

such as the focus on all out gen rush builds.

never was the focus you just didnt take my advice on reading carefully you were to focused on your 'word argument' lol.

Never was the focus?

Here's your first post (and I'll quote in entirety):

There not doing gens to counter it there doing gens because that's the objective, they dont know what killer there gonna face, there builds and toolboxes are in their hands before they know anything. Dont matter who you play your gonna get gen rushed. If they wanna win there gonna do gens fast.

You can play high mobility killers all you want. If there gen rushing, you better get consistent 25 second downs. If your spreading hooks you better get consistent 10 second downs, and that's with really good killers. If your playing killers with bad mobility you might as well go grab you a toolbox and help them.

Gen potential is the real issue, lower it. Nobody should be popping a gen by themselves in 30 sum seconds.

Highlights - "Dont matter who you play your gonna get gen rushed"

"Gen potential is the real issue, lower it. Nobody should be popping a gen by themselves in 30 sum seconds."

Second post

Camping and tunneling doesn't = to a single survivor popping a gen in 30 sum seconds.

If a survivor is popping gens like that you better do what ever tf you can or that's your as*, and most of the time its still your as*

Highlight - "Camping and tunneling doesn't = to a single survivor popping a gen in 30 sum seconds."

Third post

You fail to realize just how broken gen rushing is right now

If you run

• Full circuit
• Hyperfocus
• Built To Last
• Deja Vu
• Toolbox

And your team mate runs prove thyself with a toolbox aswell

the game can start and they can hop on a gen and pop it in 20 seconds lmao And dont forget what built to last does…

Like its literally a joke what SWFs are capable of. Alot of you survivors who only solo Q and dont really play killer like that have no idea wth really goes on.

Btw i never said what you quoted.

Highlight - "You fail to realize just how broken gen rushing is right now"

(For the record, being accuracy in quotes has been such a huge part of this, saying you never said what he quoted, @cogsturning was quoting what he had originally responded to)

Fourth Post

It doesnt matter how fast you personally get gens done if someone is running

Full circuit
Hyperfocus
Built To Last
Deja Vu
Toolbox
with prove thyself + toolbox…The generator gets done approximately 24-26 seconds realistically. That's INSANE.

I'm talking about SWFs here im not talking about a global escape rate from a unofficial site. Unless you can go find me some official data on that.

Highlights - "Full circuit
Hyperfocus
Built To Last
Deja Vu
Toolbox
with prove thyself + toolbox…The generator gets done approximately 24-26 seconds realistically. That's INSANE.
I'm talking about SWFs here im not talking about a global escape rate from a unofficial site"

-

As much as you tell others to read, you don't back up your own writing.

I'll give you this, you're great at pretending that a totally different discussion happened than what actually occurred.

You say: never was the focus you just didnt take my advice on reading carefully you were to focused on your 'word argument' lol.

I respond by quoting the first posts you made and how they focused on exactly that.

You respond by quoting something that you said approximately 40 to 45 posts into the thread.

Your back peddling.

You say its was never the focus, I show you when it was your focus in detail. That's not back peddling, that's showing what occurred.

Are you willing to defend a single one of the first four posts you made?

Unless your just fishing for an argument i suggest you go back and read to refresh your memory

It's funny, as much as you keep saying you're going to give up on this, you keep responding despite avoiding what you say you want to discuss.

As for refreshing memory - as both I and @FerrousFacade said you've either conceded or changed your argument. If you want to admit those posts were wrong and focus on something new, fine, but you can't make ad hominem attacks on others reading abilities while gaslighting that you never said the things that you did.

Coordination already increases generator repair uptime and efficiency, and when repair speed multipliers stack on top of that coordinated uptime, they convert the same total survivor time into faster objective completion. Iv been saying this for pages now.

And you are still failing to provide any reason that its true. Yes, you've been saying it for awhile, and for awhile I've been telling you that you have nothing to back it.

I don't have to go 40 posts deep, here is what I said in my 6th post when I outlined the problems with your argument:

3: Even past all of that, at no point have you proven or shown your original argument about the gen speed perks being the issue and not a coordinated SWF in general just being stronger.

Take every gen perk and item out of the game, highly coordinated SWFs would be still stronger than soloq. If anything, gen increase perks and items have less of an advantage for SWFs than they do a comparatively skilled soloq compared to other possible builds. This is again something that has been said for pages.

As for what you've said for pages - if you want to point out where you're actual argument begins and that we should ignore everything you said before that, great. Otherwise its just a guess at which arguments you actually mean.

So I guess the answer on whether you can defend any of your first four posts is no then?

Showing where the discussion started is not the same as showing what the argument was.

It is when you repeatedly tell others to 'read lol' and then try to pretend you didn't write the things you did.

Because later posts clarified the claim more precisely. Arguments evolve as their refined, quoting the clarification doesnt change what the argument is, it explains it more directly.

Your two sentences here say different things. Did you clarify your claim, or did you evolve?

Also, if it takes that long to clarify what you are saying, it is horrible writing.

The reason is mechanical-

• coordination increases simultaneous repair uptime
• coordination reduces wasted survivor time
• repair speed multipliers apply directly to that increased uptime
• stacking those multipliers therefore accelerates total objective completion

Thats a direct interaction between uptime efficiency and repair multipliers, not a rhetorical claim.

You're back to direct interaction as if the direct is relevant.

Let's go through these

Simultaneous repair - minimally, finding gens is not really a problem for a high MMR soloq.

Reduces wasted survivor time - again, sure, minimal effect but its there.

Repair speed multipliers - no more relevant than anything else in the game. Survivors being able to coordinate heals, chases, protections, etc. are still going to be stronger in a SWF than a soloq (and for some of these, not a minimal change)

Stacking those multipliers - again, no more relevant than anything else and opens up the same dangers of trade offs.

That would only be true if repair speed bonuses did not scale with increased uptime and splitting efficiency, but they do, because percentage based repair bonuses apply directly to the amount of time survivors are actively repairing. More coordinated repair time means more value extracted from those bonuses.

Okay, how?

Let's say a survivor is running hyperfocus + built to last + a toolbox. Whether they are in soloq or SWF, they are going to move to a gen, and do it. They are going to get the value out of those perks in either situation.

Now, can I imagine situations where the SWF might help here? Sure its possible, but this build is very easy to get the same amount of value out of in a soloq. If this build is too strong, its too strong in both scenarios.

Then we get into what else could be run, so onto:

If anything, gen increase perks and items have less of an advantage for SWFs than they do a comparatively skilled soloq

That would only be true if repair speed bonuses did not scale with increased uptime and splitting efficiency, but they do, because percentage based repair bonuses apply directly to the amount of time survivors are actively repairing. More coordinated repair time means more value extracted from those bonuses.

We've already discussed trade offs - the more gen perks a survivor brings the less ability they will have to do other things. That remains true whether soloq or SWF, so the SWF with the gen perks is taking the same risks.

As for the scaling - let's take something like deja vu. So let's say via call outs a survivor is on gens for three extra seconds than they would be in an equivalent soloq - the perk itself is netting 0.18 charges. Minimal benefit, sure, but again, we're right back to trade offs. What would they have gotten from any other perk that coordination also would have benefitted from?

If we talk about perks like deliverance, reassurance, aura reading, we're seeing a much greater discrepancy in what SWF and soloq can do with them.

Hypothetical - let's say BHVR removes every gen increase perk and item in the game, how large is the gap between SWF and soloq? I suspect it wouldn't move much, but would likely be a higher gap.

The argument has been consistent.coordination increases generator efficiency, and repair-speed multipliers amplify that coordinated efficiency, which is why generators can feel disproportionately fast in coordinated high MMR SWFs.

I mentioned this to @FerrousFacade, but frequently good is confused with SWFs. Gens fly? Must be a SWF.

The common strategy for survivors, SWF or soloq, is to spread out and get on gens. Eventually one survivor will get in a chase and the other survivors will keep doing gens. What is going to determine how fast those gens go is how long that chase is. If the gens are flying this has nothing to it being a SWF - it has to do with what the build is and how long the chase is going.

In theory, couldn't this problem be rectified by instituting a pre-made queue and a standard queue? The ranked idea tanked leaving us with MMR so I suspect the idea will see some recalcitrance, but the balancing of DbD does seem to be complicated by the large gap between SoloQ versus Comp SWF. Can't buff or nerf one without buffing or nerfing the other.

As a result then, why not just split those two queues apart? The queue times will tank temporarily, but the balance issues will either come out in the wash, or they will provide further data for analyzation.

So I guess the answer on whether you can defend any of your first four posts is no then?

Those posts used builds as examples, not the thesis. Showing where the discussion started doesnt refute the mechanic being discussed.

It is when you repeatedly tell others to 'read lol' and then try to pretend you didn't write the things you did.

Nothing is being “pretended away.” The same mechanism described earlier is the one being discussed now, only clarified more directly.

Your two sentences here say different things. Did you clarify your claim, or did you evolve?

Clarified. The mechanism hasnt changed, coordination increases repair uptime and repair speed multipliers scale with that uptime.

Also, if it takes that long to clarify what you are saying, it is horrible writing.

Or it means the discussion spent pages debating wording rather than the mechanic itself.

You're back to direct interaction as if the direct is relevant.

Direct interaction is relevant because generator repair is the objective that determines match completion, and repair bonuses apply directly to that objective.

Simultaneous repair - minimally, finding gens is not really a problem for a high MMR soloq.

Finding gens is not the interaction being discussed, sustained simultaneous repair uptime is.

Reduces wasted survivor time - again, sure, minimal effect but its there.

Small efficiency gains applied continuously across multiple survivors accumulate significantly when percentage bonuses apply to all of that repair time.

Repair speed multipliers - no more relevant than anything else in the game.

They are more relevant to generator completion because they apply directly to repair time. More coordinated repair uptime means more total seconds benefiting from the multiplier.

Stacking those multipliers - again, no more relevant than anything else and opens up the same dangers of trade offs.

Stacking matters because percentage bonuses scale with uptime. Higher sustained uptime produces more total objective progress from the same multiplier.

Okay, how?

Because percentage based bonuses increase progress per second of repair time, and coordination increases the amount of time survivors are actively repairing simultaneously.

Let's say a survivor is running hyperfocus + built to last + a toolbox. Whether they are in soloq or SWF, they are going to move to a gen, and do it. They are going to get the value out of those perks in either situation.

Single survivor perk value is not the interaction being discussed. The scaling effect occurs at the team level, where multiple survivors maintaining coordinated repair uptime increases the total value extracted from percentage bonuses.

Now, can I imagine situations where the SWF might help here? Sure its possible, but this build is very easy to get the same amount of value out of in a soloq. If this build is too strong, its too strong in both scenarios.

The claim isnt that solo cannot gain value, but that coordinated teams maintain higher sustained simultaneous repair uptime, increasing the total progress produced from the same bonuses.

We've already discussed trade offs - the more gen perks a survivor brings the less ability they will have to do other things. That remains true whether soloq or SWF, so the SWF with the gen perks is taking the same risks.

The trade off is the same, but the return on the perk differs when repair uptime is higher, because percentage bonuses generate more total progress from increased coordinated repair time.

As for the scaling - let's take something like deja vu. So let's say via call outs a survivor is on gens for three extra seconds than they would be in an equivalent soloq - the perk itself is netting 0.18 charges. Minimal benefit, sure, but again, we're right back to trade offs. What would they have gotten from any other perk that coordination also would have benefitted from?

Short isolated moments of value do not represent match long uptime. Small bonuses applied continuously across multiple coordinated survivors accumulate into substantially more total objective progress.

If we talk about perks like deliverance, reassurance, aura reading, we're seeing a much greater discrepancy in what SWF and soloq can do with them.

Those mechanics are event dependent, whereas generator repair is continuous, allowing uptime-scaling bonuses to convert coordinated time into objective completion more directly.

Hypothetical - let's say BHVR removes every gen increase perk and item in the game, how large is the gap between SWF and soloq? I suspect it wouldn't move much, but would likely be a higher gap.

Removing bonuses doesnt eliminate the coordination advantage, it only removes the multiplier that amplifies the efficiency coordination already creates.

I mentioned this to @FerrousFacade , but frequently good is confused with SWFs. Gens fly? Must be a SWF.

The claim isnt that every fast match equals a SWF, but that coordinated teams convert available repair time into progress more efficiently, increasing the likelihood of faster generator completion under the same conditions.

The common strategy for survivors, SWF or soloq, is to spread out and get on gens. Eventually one survivor will get in a chase and the other survivors will keep doing gens. What is going to determine how fast those gens go is how long that chase is. If the gens are flying this has nothing to it being a SWF - it has to do with what the build is and how long the chase is going.

Chase duration determines the available time window, but coordination determines how efficiently the remaining survivors convert that window into repair progress, and repair speed bonuses increase the progress gained per second of that coordinated uptime.

Those posts used builds as examples, not the thesis.

1: A thesis should come early in a point. Especially with disagreement from multiple parties, going multiple pages into a thread before saying what you mean is silly.

2: When laying out examples, you should tie them to the thesis, not imply the examples are the entire argument.

3: You laid out examples anticipating what would be said a week later? Sure seems like it would be easier to just make your point then and save the time.

4: Examples are a type of evidence that are tied to a thesis. So are High MMR SWFs creating a problem with Full Circuit?

Nothing is being “pretended away.”

Sure it is, I'll even get to an example right away:

Or it means the discussion spent pages debating wording rather than the mechanic itself.

Here's an example of pretending away.

1: You haven't actually debated this in a long time. A debate would be either you saying 'yes, I said that, here is why' or 'yes, I said that, it was incorrect'. Instead you don't debate the issue, but you do bring it up whenever possible to deflect from other weaknesses in your points.

2: You've had arguments with multiple people. You go pages with others before you get around to 'what I actually mean is' which just seems to be a massively toned down version of what you were once saying. Putting the blame on the discussion between us is pretending everything else didn't occur as a deflection from the issue.

They are more relevant to generator completion because they apply directly to repair time. More coordinated repair uptime means more total seconds benefiting from the multiplier.

Coordinated aura call outs read to more time in chase = more time on gens.

Better coordinated heals lead to faster heals = more time on gens

Better coordinated use of anti-tunnel = more time on gens

You also love to say multiplier without ever getting into the math. It ipso facto that the perks are broken in the hands of SWFs. What perk(s) are we talking about and how much extra charges do you think a SWF is actually getting in comparison to soloq?

Single survivor perk value is not the interaction being discussed. The scaling effect occurs at the team level, where multiple survivors maintaining coordinated repair uptime increases the total value extracted from percentage bonuses.

Okay, so you were really wrong when you said early - "Gen potential is the real issue, lower it. Nobody should be popping a gen by themselves in 30 sum seconds."

How are the survivors coordinating repair time in a way that is so substantially different from soloq that these perks become the problem?

Its not hard for soloq to get on gens, especially if we limit this discussion to high MMR.

The trade off is the same, but the return on the perk differs when repair uptime is higher, because percentage bonuses generate more total progress from increased coordinated repair time.

No. This is universal.

If coordination allows longer chases, or faster heals, or keeping a survivor in the match - all of those improve the survivor's chance of escaping. There's nothing unique about the 'percentage bonuses' and a lot of reasons why they don't actually matter nearly as much.

As for the scaling - let's take something like deja vu. So let's say via call outs a survivor is on gens for three extra seconds than they would be in an equivalent soloq - the perk itself is netting 0.18 charges. Minimal benefit, sure, but again, we're right back to trade offs. What would they have gotten from any other perk that coordination also would have benefitted from?

Short isolated moments of value do not represent match long uptime. Small bonuses applied continuously across multiple coordinated survivors accumulate into substantially more total objective progress.

Okay, how much?

Let's say over an entire match across all 4 survivors there was a total of 30 seconds where they got on gens more quickly than they would have in an equivalent soloq.

That's 30 charges they get from the better coordination

Even if every one of those survivors who saved time had deja vu, that's 1.8 charges.

The coordination is always going to outweigh the percentage bonuses and then we're right back to trade offs.

Those mechanics are event dependent, whereas generator repair is continuous, allowing uptime-scaling bonuses to convert coordinated time into objective completion more directly.

So what?

Those events happen. We're right back to this being a normal part of DbD - some perks provide small but easy to access benefits, other perks provide powerful, but situational benefits.

If Deja Vu was run in 10 matches and Decisive Strike was run in 10 matches, there would be more matches were Deja Vu got value, but the matches DS got value it far more likely had an impact on the outcome.

Hypothetical - let's say BHVR removes every gen increase perk and item in the game, how large is the gap between SWF and soloq? I suspect it wouldn't move much, but would likely be a higher gap.

Removing bonuses doesnt eliminate the coordination advantage, it only removes the multiplier that amplifies the efficiency coordination already creates.

Higher, lower, or the same? What's your answer?

Because at the extreme end of MMR, coordinated SWFs have an advantage. You're now repeating something that's been agreed on for pages and I don't think anyone ever disagreed with outside of scope or relevance (and to what degree its coordination vs a few other factors). You're the one who has been talking about the perks being a problem, so if they didn't exist at all, what would happen?

I mentioned this to @FerrousFacade , but frequently good is confused with SWFs. Gens fly? Must be a SWF.

The claim isnt that every fast match equals a SWF, but that coordinated teams convert available repair time into progress more efficiently, increasing the likelihood of faster generator completion under the same conditions.

And at some point this should be backed up by evidence of some sort. I've linked to the unrestricted comp series, others have talked about SWF on streaks not using any of these elements, what do you have to back your argument?

Chase duration determines the available time window, but coordination determines how efficiently the remaining survivors convert that window into repair progress, and repair speed bonuses increase the progress gained per second of that coordinated uptime.

"coordination determines how efficiently the remaining survivors convert that window into repair progress"

No, getting on gens is easy. Of all the things coordination helps with, this is one of the least improved.

A thesis should come early in a point. Especially with disagreement from multiple parties, going multiple pages into a thread before saying what you mean is silly.

The thesis was present early, coordination increases repair uptime, and repair speed multipliers scale with that uptime. Rephrasing it later didn’t create a new claim, it clarified the same one.

When laying out examples, you should tie them to the thesis, not imply the examples are the entire argument.

They were tied to the thesis, examples showed how multiplier scaling behaves under coordination. Treating examples as the thesis is the misread, not the argument itself. This is your word argument all over again.

You laid out examples anticipating what would be said a week later? Sure seems like it would be easier to just make your point then and save the time.

The point was made then, examples were supporting evidence illustrating the interaction, not a replacement for the claim.

Examples are a type of evidence that are tied to a thesis. So are High MMR SWFs creating a problem with Full Circuit?

The claim was never “Full Circuit creates the problem,” but that coordination increases uptime and multipliers amplify the value extracted from that uptime regardless of the specific perk.

Here’s an example of pretending away.

Restating the same mechanic repeatedly isnt “pretending away”; it’s keeping the discussion on the actual interaction being debated.

Coordinated aura call outs read to more time in chase = more time on gens

Correct, which increases total repair uptime, the exact variable that percentage repair bonuses scale with.

Better coordinated heals lead to faster heals = more time on gens

Again correct, and that increased repair time is precisely where multiplier scaling produces additional objective progress.

Better coordinated use of anti-tunnel = more time on gens

Same principle: coordination raises sustained uptime, which increases the total value gained from percentage based repair bonuses.

You also love to say multiplier without ever getting into the math. It ipso facto that the perks are broken in the hands of SWFs. What perk(s) are we talking about and how much extra charges do you think a SWF is actually getting in comparison to soloq?

The argument does not depend on a specific perk being “broken”; it concerns the scaling interaction itself, more coordinated repair time means more seconds benefiting from any percentage-based repair modifier, increasing total progress extracted from the same match time.

Okay, so you were really wrong when you said early - ‘Gen potential is the real issue, lower it. Nobody should be popping a gen by themselves in 30 sum seconds.’

That statement addressed baseline generator speed concerns, the current discussion explains why coordination plus multipliers amplifies generator completion speed beyond baseline.

How are the survivors coordinating repair time in a way that is so substantially different from soloq that these perks become the problem?

Coordination reduces overlap, downtime, and idle movement, producing higher sustained simultaneous repair uptime, which directly increases the total value extracted from percentage based repair bonuses.

Its not hard for soloq to get on gens, especially if we limit this discussion to high MMR.

Access to generators isnt the distinction, sustained simultaneous repair uptime across multiple survivors is.

If coordination allows longer chases, or faster heals, or keeping a survivor in the match - all of those improve the survivor's chance of escaping. There's nothing unique about the ‘percentage bonuses’

Those effects increase repair uptime, percentage repair bonuses uniquely scale with the total amount of time survivors are actively repairing, which is why the interaction matters.

Okay, how much?

Across four survivors, small uptime gains applied continuously over an entire match accumulate into meaningful additional generator progress because the bonuses apply every second survivors are repairing.

Those events happen. We're right back to this being a normal part of DbD - some perks provide small but easy to access benefits, other perks provide powerful, but situational benefits.

Generator repair is a continuous action rather than an event based one, which is exactly why uptime scaling percentage bonuses accumulate more consistently over time.

Higher, lower, or the same? What's your answer?

Higher, because coordination already increases repair uptime, and percentage repair bonuses increase the amount of progress gained during that increased uptime.

And at some point this should be backed up by evidence of some sort.

The evidence is the mechanical interaction itself- percentage based repair bonuses scale directly with the amount of time survivors are actively repairing, and coordination increases that repair time.

No, getting on gens is easy. Of all the things coordination helps with, this is one of the least improved.

Finding generators is not the improvement being discussed, sustained coordinated repair uptime, how long multiple survivors remain repairing simultaneously without downtime, is.

Agreed. A lot of the braindead perks should just leave the game imo. WoO, Zanshin, Lightborn, Iron will, etc. Both sides have a few braindead perks.

The math is actually very simple: percentage repair bonuses increase progress per second of repair time. If coordinated teams spend more total seconds repairing simultaneously, those bonuses apply for more seconds

This might make sense if infinite gen time existed, but there are only 5 necessary gens on the map.

You complain about deja Vu specifically, which is a 6% increase. That saves 5.1 seconds off of a single gen if that gen is one of the 3 selected and that survivor completes the gen from 0 to 100%

It doesn't save more time if that survivor is solo or in a group. It's saves 5.1 seconds max. Period.

Which is why stuff like this doesn't make sense:

The comparison variable is total coordinated repair time. Apply a percentage bonus to a larger amount of repair time and you get proportionally more total progress. That’s the math being referenced, not a hidden spreadsheet somewhere.

Gens are fixed times. The maximum bonus is already the worst case scenario here. There's no "extra gen time" on this percentage.

What you're really wanting to complain about is survivors being efficient, which still isn't necessarily a group problem. Solo survivors can be efficient, and grouped/SWF survivors can be inefficient.

Your entire argument here is completely flawed because of this one fact:

You are cherry picking one stat from this take and ignoring the overall statistic. Overall, SWF is balanced now.

Roughly 40-42% for the entire population, regardless of group size, and the largest escape rates being held by solo survivors.

Because you, and many others, see this chart and only focus on the number you want to see: that the smallest group of players (4 mans) in the highest skill tier of the game (top 5%) escape slightly more than the rest of the 99.5% of the population.

But that's all we're talking about here: maybe 0.5% of the population. Since 4 man SWF is about 10% of all players, and "high MMR" is already the top 5%, so 5% of 10% is 0.5%. probably not exact, but we're still taking about far less than even 5% of the total population here.

Which is really sad, that with maximum skill and extremely high level of coordination that players can still almost-but-not-quite achieve a fair game.

And we should never be balancing solely around the upper-most, top end of anything. Otherwise we need to discuss win streaks also. You don't balance for that, you balance for the overall population. And the data shows that they have done that now.

You are working backwards for this entire encyclopedia of text, starting with your decision that survivors should be nerfed, and you think gen speeds perks are the issue, and coming up with anything you can to try and rationalize that.