http://dbd.game/killswitch
Is Ghoul actually a problem or is it a skill issue?
Ghoul became one of those killers who in the beginning became widely hated due to how how strong their power was along with the free injure at the start of every chase. He could even vault and get an easy hit at loops, plus being able to catch up immediately after breaking a pallet.
Almost all of these annoying aspects have been nerfed. He's still a great killer, but after receiving so many changes over time is still widely hated despite being not as oppressive. A noob stomper but every killer is to most newer players so I don't think that really counts as part of the argument.
A good hand full of survivor players have stated that Ghoul is not difficult to go against. Especially the average Ghoul who hasn't even mastered his mobility at all. Easy to loop and take advantage of in chase.
So I'm trying to understand if there is inherent bias against Ghoul. Rather than trying to improve in chase, are most survivors just giving up and not even trying? Instead of getting better at looping Ghoul do survivors just assume Ghoul is the primary problem if they get downed? Their skill doesn't need to be put into question?
Comments
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I play survivor quite a bit and Ghoul is still probably my least favorite killer to go against even after his nerfs. It’s like going against Legion but way more annoying. Super easy to zip all over the map and get free EZ hits, then constant mend simulator. I can’t imagine that anyone on the survivor side actually enjoys going against Ghoul. It’s not even a matter of him being OP - it’s just super annoying and boring.
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they don't like him since he punishes shift w
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It's a skill issue to call him OP.
It's not a skill issue to point out that he sucks the fun out of a lot of trials. I won't deny he's very fun to play, though.14 -
I'm neutral around the board when it comes to Ghoul. Will play as and against with no issue.
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Is he broken in terms of power level? No, he is definetly weaker than Nurse, or Blight
Do I want to play against him ever again? Also no, I will take Blight, or Nurse anyday over him15 -
It's legion syndrome. He's a real seal clubbing killer. Uncoordinated teams and newer players struggle against him because he keeps everyone permainjured. A combination of panicking causing mistakes and the misplay of wasting time trying to heal when you really should just put that time into gens.
The auto hit is irritating af but once he's hit that /if you're already injured then all you've got is an M1 killer who can close distances with traversal. He's super easy to loop you just have to keep your cool and have good pathing. I.e. always be within spitting distance of a halfway decent pallet or window.
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In the harshest terms. Yes. His entire power is "did you play better than your opponent?"
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The only "skill issue" is on the killer side. They had to give Ghoul auto-aim cause they know how bad a lot of killers are. And y'all can talk about nerfs all y'all want, but until Ghoul's auto-aim is gone I ain't listening to any of it.
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The problem I consistently see is this: very good Nurses and Blights win, but bad Nurses and Blights lose; bad Ghouls will still win. Powerful killers should also be at least kinda challenging to play, but even if the player is bad at looping, the mobility makes them able to constantly be on top of someone or in a new chase. Toning down the ability would be nice.
He is also annoying and tremendously unfun to play against.
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I like how we are debating if the survivors have a skill issue meanwhile ghouls first hit takes absolutely zero skill.
(and before I see legion comparisons I can play pallet chicken with legion, I can attempt to whiff legion)
Ghoul is the most Unfun killer in this game. Free no skill lock on hit where you are animation locked in a horrible looking animation so a anime dude can weeb scream in my face. legit remove that and I wont complain about him again I hate that part of his kit and wanted that part of his kit removed/ changed since the killer has been released.A good hand full of survivor players have stated that Ghoul is not difficult to go against. Especially the average Ghoul who hasn't even mastered his mobility at all. Easy to loop and take advantage of in chase.This is only true because people who struggle with the other killers are drawn to ghoul because hes easy. Not OP but too easy to play compared to Nurse and Blight who are harder to master, so of course a lot of players who play him are going to be below average.
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Share your kill rate with him
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Why would I play him in pub lobbies and force other survivors to verse him even more.
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What do you mean? Being stunlocked and injured for free is great game design and very fun.
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By the way you talked it seems like you did.
I'm somewhat of an average killer (my general kill rate fluctuates between 50-60%) and to fail a Ghoul leap bite is not that hard and is quite frustranting, just because the game buggs and he can grab one trough walls in reddit clips doesn't change that.
Of course, I'm not a ghoul main either but still.
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Survivors have to master looping a new killer with a new power every 3 months, or else they don't even get to play the game.
By way of contrast, think about how much new stuff a Blight main has had to learn in the 6 years since his release.
Or do you think something like Orela Rose's chapter was just as much of a learning curve for killer as a new killer would be for survivor, lol?
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I absolutely loathed, and I mean LOATHED Ghoul when he first came out. I still do find it gross how strong he can be in the majority of 1v1 scenarios, but I'd be lying if I said playing against him can't be fun. In fact, controversially even to myself, I've found that looping and outsmarting a Ghoul player is incredibly fun, and much more possible than it was before.
There's only two things that make him as infuriating as he was on launch: First, dead zones. Hard to fix on half of the maps in the game, can be a skill issue if you just don't know good positioning. Him catching you out in the open can mean instantly going from being 20 meters away from him to being downed in 4 seconds. Second, and the one that always gets me, the pallet vault. The fact that he can use the survivor themselves as a dash surface to get over the pallet kind of turns 90% of pallets into an instant down. There is a small chance you can re-vault quicker than his vaulting cooldown, but if you don't predict the vault in the first place then its impossible to do. Reminds me of the original scamper for Chucky, which makes me understand completely why people find it annoying still even after the Ghoul's nerfs.
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The truth honestly! A huge amount of survivors ability to play the game is just shift-w ing to pallet after pallet and if they cant do that they cant actually loop so they go down easy.
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I always have wondered why people do not like the stunlock animation with Ghoul but seems to not have a problem with Wesker?
Ghoul locks your movement but at least keeps you in place, so you can keep your original path. Meanwhile Wesker not only locks your movement but also moves you against your will, but people never did seem to have a problem with it at all.
Keep in mind im talking just about the stunlock animation, not about the free hit that comes with hit. Discussions about the free hit are different.
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I honestly think It only is because it is tied to the free hit.
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When Wesker gets his stunlock, not only is it usually a result of a correct play by the Wesker, it's better quality, you can actually read what is happening and isn't constant. If you're healthy against a Ghoul you can guarantee you're going to have to eat a stunlock. Hell, if you're injured it still happens, and the animation is so poorly implemented and cheap looking that you quite often can't infer what happened leading up to it.
It being free is a huge part of that.
On a personal note, the screeching and profoundly unintimidating giggling in my ear does not help.10 -
This is pretty much it; he's not OP, but he's strong, has a very low skill floor. You can be a totally mid player but still able to be really annoying with his mobility and auto aim. As you imply, at least Nurse and Blight have something approximating a skill floor.
Ghoul is just plug and play.
Exacerbating things is that Ghoul is also really fun to play as, so you see tons of them. I can't really blame people for playing Ghoul so much, I just wish they wouldn't lol
I won't DC like a baby against Ghoul or anything, but ngl I do just kinda tune out most of the time when I hear his TR. It's just tedious.
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Jokes on you, there are some killers I don't even know what their powers are and I can still enjoy this game and do well in it because I barely see them at all
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I honestly think the annoyance comes from the loss of your characters control. He for me at least is just another killer to play against. Yeah he can be really hard one to face but in the end you can loop him for a while.
Only change I would make to him is that his leap to hurt the survivor would require certain distance from the survivor so it at least would make him have to be closer to the survivor as some of the long range damage hits do feel not so fun and I think he also should not be able to hurt survivors over anything.
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Ghoul no longer has so great antiloop potencial with his revualt becuase firstly theres no hitbox on it so unlike wesker he cant injure survivor sho is staying behind pallet he is vaulting and secondly now you can freerly vault back through him when he is vaulting pallet.
This change was hidden in trickster patch in bugfixes even when its actual nerf of his basekit power and feature that was meant to work like that and kinda makes me wonder why devs hid so drastic change into bugfix text instead put it into ner/buff part of patch notes.
These changes make ghoul much weaker in antiloop he can now just injure you fast and move around map but his revault is just like vecnas flight revualt in terms of usibility in chase so no longer theres situation where he just vaults and you go down, now its on you as survivor because when you see him pull his power up and go for vault and you arent super far from pallet/window yo ucan revualt through him and theres nothing he can do to stop it.
Patch 9.5.0
- Nerf: Removed The Ghoul's automatic hit detection system after performing a Leap Vault.
- Quality of Life: Reduced the Reticle's stickiness effect on Survivors not holding a Kagune Mark from 0.18 seconds to 0.05 seconds.
at 4:50 its meantioned
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you arent super far from pallet/window
Let's be honest, it works only for pallets. I have yet to see Ghoul without Bamboozle/addon.
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Bambuzle should honestly not work on ghoul as it is an super clutch. I played it on him as he came out, but slowly dropped it as it is super boring/effective.
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Happy to say I've listed this in my list of reasons why I think Wesker is one of the worst designed killers in the game, if not the worst.
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and the Laras downvoted you for speaking the truth.
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That addon is something else but no wonder why people use it when its one of his best addons same with different addons on other killers or addons on items people use majority of time best stuf.
Addon is something else but fact you can vault through him and nothing happens to you is other thing so no more excuses that you drop pallet and he vaults and theres nothing you can do because now you actualy can.
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You didnt got it he has centipide addon (is it I think) that makes window blocked when he vaults it with his power basicaly perk effect in his addon like majority of killers have something simular not meaning its bamboozle.
Bam doesnt work with killers power vaults so wesker,ghoul and others dont proc it but killer who manualy vaults like krasue in head form proc it.
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He's still a problem... You just can't make distance so you can try hiding, the easy hits from far away, waste of time while mending before you can get to healing, crossing the map with that mobility to start a chase seconds after hooking and even when there's no survivor found he can keep a quick eye on so many gens. + Why not kick the gen first you'll catch up in a sec ... It's just a bit to much
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His gameplay mechanic is not the problem. The problem lies on easy hits / guaranteed hits (sometimes even through big rocks, walls, etc) + absurdly crazy good mobility + possibility of ignoring pallets, which is a core defensive mechanics for survivors + perks that synergizes really well with this Killer (which is kinda funny, 'cause I can't think of a lot of Killers that have great synergy with a lot of perks like he does) + larvae addon (free Bamboozle, basically a 5th perkslot) + addon that makes us scream (hex:face the darkness with no counterplay except for Jake's "calm spirit", basically a 6th perk).
Everything works so well for him, in so many aspects… that it leaves us with a MISERABLE EXPERIENCE AS SURVIVOR.
Now that I've said my piece… here are some suggestions to balance this Killer for good.If Behavior decides to keep his leaps crossing the entirety of the Movie Theater's map:
- Base movespeed 4.4m/s
- Increase the cooldown to leap
This way, he'll still be extremely mobile, but will have to work for his food instead of simply leaping every 5 seconds or so.
Now, if Behavior decides to greatly reduce his leaping distance, things are easier, as he'll be less oppresive
- Maintain shorter cooldowns
- Keep the ability to cross pallets
- Reduce his movespeed to 4.4m/s to avoid the famous ''jumping pallet + almost insta recover + 4.6ms + guaranteed m1".
The way it is now, this killer simply have it all today, which is an absurd. He has to have some flaws, like Plague, that won't hit us from a distance if no one cleans in one of her ''pools'' or ''sinks''.
I can trace a parallel with Spirit. What are Spirit flaws? None. Great addons, great mobility, killer instinct if near a survivor, intangibility while phasing + instahit out of phase… What is this Killer's main flaw? Being 4.4m/s? Please… she can spam her phase. What is Nurse's flaw? Her fatigue? She has three blinks nowadays, with addons, she couldn't care less about pallets, she crosses the map in seconds… if she's being played by an experienced player, there is no ''tricking her'', "outsmarting her".
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People do call Ghoul Legion 2.0 cause he basically is that but with an extreme amount of mobility in terms of strength imagine if Legion was 3x more faster in Feral Frenzy and has half the end power cooldown and behold that's basically the ghoul
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Basically what I think the ghoul needs like his grab attack should no longer lock Survivors in place and also either A only serve to enrage ghoul no longer injuring or B take more effort like you need to Kagune Mark survivors first before you can injure and enrage.
Other parts of his Kit is problematic as well like between Kagune Leaps he can hold his power for 5 seconds and has fast move speed to worm around objects and loop tiles compared to Wesker who only can hold his power between rushes for 3 seconds and doesn't have enough move speed to worm around objects and tiles unless you have the addon.
Finally his Kagune leap Cancel and slowdown is extremely short and has no attack cooldown which why players feel he's not fair compared to other killers.
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I 100% it’s a skill issue, now.
Ghoul has got nothing but nerfs, his counterplay is super easy. Just do the vault back, it’s not that hard.But it seems like nobody wants to learn how to counter him, even though he gives you free distance after the first hit and his vault is so much worse now.
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If I see one more person acting like the ability to vault back through him is anything other than some niche situational thing my eyes will roll so hard I will need ice packs to recover. I've heard people talk like that change 'fixed' him - as if kidnap tech was THE thing that made him frustrating and not something aggravating you run into occasionally.
You do not spend the entire match on the other side of a vaultable from him. Yeesh.
Oh noes - you can vault back through him. He's been nerfed! Give me a freaking break.
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The way I see it, Ghoul is the new Skull Merchant. Had an insanely overpowered start and progressively got weaker as time went on because people genuinely did not like to face off against a killer with disgustingly effective and rather annoying kit. Infact, that kit still holds up to this day, and it's almost been a year since Ghouls release, so that should very clearly tell you what people think about him.
I'm not afraid to admit that when I hear his Terror Radius Theme at the beginning of the match, I either frown or groan because of the sheer abundance of ghouls you will run into in comparison to literally any other killer. As a survivor main, I'm also one of the people who will say that it's not impossible to face Ghoul in a match. Like with most killers all it takes is some experience, spatial awareness and prediction. It is, however, incredibly tiresome having to face kaneki's and rizes for what feels like every single match.
I'm inclined to say it's a 50/50. Sometimes, it is a skill issue between the players and their level of experience; but other times, it's likely an inherent bias/reputation that the Ghoul garnered when he first dropped; much like Skull Merchant. Most people are just really tired of having to see the same killer, the same perks and the same add-ons every time they face one.4 -
As someone who recently played a lot of Ghoul, I think there are just a few changes to make him a lot less annoying two play against.
1.-Decrease the bite range to 8-5m, the 15m range is just insane.
2.-Remove mending.
3.-Remove the vault. This actually indirectly buffs the cut-off playstyle.
Maybe as a last change, have a map wide sound queue for kagune leaps, that way you don't get slingshot out of position unless you get greedy.
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Survivors learned with skull merchant that if they cry en-mass the game breaks and BHVR bends then knee. They'll eventually get to ghoul based on quit rates just like they did for skull merchant (If they balance back to avoid becoming the next VHS, HSH, or TCM remains to be seen).
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So nerf legion i guess same thing
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