Are we leaving pallet density as is?
Comments
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Currently, there are no plans to look at the pallet density. Pallet density was last changed in 9.3.2 to address the rest of the feedback and find a middle ground between Killers and Survivors after the original pallet density changes. What is currently in the game is the current pallet density, and they are behaving as expected.
Whilst the team doesn't have any specific plans to share, the team is always open to feedback and we want to iron out any bugs. Specific screenshots of areas and other information is always helpful and passed along. These can be added to the Forums feedback section or suspected bugs can be added to BetaHub so that we can look into any major issues.
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Thank you! I will gather any findings and set it under Feedback.
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This is SO appreciated; the more specific the better!
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i guess there are no plans to reduce the pallets since it makes the survivors job easier and makes killers a living hell, i thought this was dbd not pallet breaking simulator BECAUSE THERE ARE 25 PALLETS ON EVERY MAP. Stop with the half assed responces.
Post edited by FoxGhoul on-25 -
You probably have some gameplay? Because most Pallets are really unsafe. If you get run around those, you will most likely make something wrong. My guess is that you break Pallets you can actually play, which obviously gives the Survivor free distance.
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pallets being unsafe only matter if survivors loop them and they dont, because they have no reason to BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY DAMN PALLETS AND EACH ARE 5 FEET FROM ONE ANOTHER. The whole "well most are unsafe is bullshit when there are so many god damn pallets.
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I mean, if that happens, they'll be out of resources very quickly and have massive dead zones. Using Windows to braindead run from pallet to pallet and drop them without any looping is very bad playing. Killers get stronger as the game goes on and the resources dwindle.
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Just show gameplay. Wouldnt it be great if you get tips to deal with the problem? Or are you just here bc you want to complain?
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If anything Ive noticed less pallets for the last few weeks
examples
Disturbed Ward - missing long downstairs indoor pallet (no pallets downstairs in main anymore)
Lerys - seems to have a lot less of them little loops on edges of map
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Thats the thing, some Pallets are straigth up missing, because they got removed when Pallet Density got worked on. Also some Windows and breakable Walls got removed when they introduced the first version of Pallet Density (the one with way too many Pallets), but those never got added back in.
Examples are the Breakable Walls in the Main Buildings of Groaning Storehouse or Gas Heaven or the best Window which can spawn downsides in Father Campbells Chapel. They also reworked the Fun Bus back then to not really be a strong tile anymore. And then they removed the extra Pallets again, which was the second version of Pallet Density with too few Pallets.
Now the amount of Pallets is fine (obviously if you only count them, it seems many, but as I said previously, many are not really playable for the Survivor), yet those things I mentioned got removed, so overall those Maps are a bit weaker for Survivor.
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I would like to see the outliers adjusted. Decimated Borgo comes to mind as an insanely strong map with too many overly strong pallets and some strong windows.
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I will tell you, this is not a bad strategy. Actually, this is one of the best strategy survivors can do. The map has way more pallets than necessary to loop the killer and still have time to finish all the gens. I say it by my own experience.
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Good strategy for who, someone who just wants to hold W away from chase? And what about your teammates that don't know you ripped through all the resources and they can now be herded into a surprise dead zone? The maps have pallets, yeah, but many are garbage edgemap pallets that will buy you seconds before going down, or useless things between a small rock and tree.
But yeah, please do this in all my killer matches. Predrop a pallet I can just walk around and return to break at my leisure.
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A good survivor can waste a killer's time even in a "bad" pallet. You just need to be patient, which is a very difficult thing for survivors to have in this game.
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This is the opposite of predropping and holding W.
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This is not really true the way you think it is. Yes nurse blight spirit ghoul etc don't care. But we are talking about MOST of the killer cast not the top ones which are a different issue. So keep that in mind as you read this.
All it takes is 2-3 pre-dropped god pallets, and 3 gens are going to get done, let's imagine say, a legion, who effectively has no power after the first hit.
Breaking a pallet takes 2.34 seconds. A pallet covers about 5 meters from 1 side to the other (a little under a lunge which is about 6 meters). A killer breaking a pallet, if the survivor shift+w away, the survivor will gain 9.36 meters of distance for a total of 14.36 meters of distance. In order to hit that survivor, the killer needs to lunge at them, a lunge makes the killer move at 6.9 m/s for 0.9 seconds. the last 0.3 seconds of which they can hit, and then for a few frames after they are able to land a hit. The distance of a swing for killer is about 1 meter. Which means that the killer needs to be 1 meter away for the final hit. Because survivors move at 4 m/s, when factoring the lunge and the distance, this means that to hit a running survivor with the very tip of your lunge, you need to be 3.61 meters away from the survivor. (During that lunge the killer moves 6.21 meters and their hit extends out for 1 meter for a total of 7.21 meters, but during the 0.9 seconds the killer is lunging, the survivor is able to move 3.6 meters. Thus, 7.21 - 3.6 = 3.61 meters).
So in summary:
- Dropping a pallet and the killer breaking it puts the killer at 14.36 meters away from the survivor
- They need to close the gap to 3.61 meters of distance in order to hit the survivor at the tip of their lunge.
- This means the killer needs to close the gap by 14.36 - 3.61 = 10.75 meters.
How long does it take the killer to catch up to the survivor at 10.75 meters? Well the killer moves at 4.6 and the survivor at 4. So every second, the killer gains 0.6 meters of distance. So simply 10.75/0.6 = 17.916 seconds. To account for lag, and human reaction and to make math a little easiy, i think we can safely round this up to 18 seconds. And that is in the best case scenario.
So, in our scenario, lets say the survivor just shift+ws to a pallet and predrops it. No mindgaming, no looping, no nothing, just pure shift+w and predrop. Every predrop extends the chase by 18 seconds.
This doesn't factor in the time it took to start that chase. Land the first hit, find the survivor, any of those things. But, lets say the survivor predrops 3 pallets (keep in mind these days maps have around 20 pallets at this point), then they just shift+w to a corner of the map. This means, no looping, no mindgaming, no nothing, just pure, predrop a pallet and shift+w away as the killer breaks it.
In that scenario it will take the killer 3*18 = 54 seconds to down the survivor. Then they have to, wipe their blade, pick up the survivor, sit through the pickup animation, find a hook, walk to the hook, put the survivor on the hook, wait for the hooking animation, THEN they can start the next chase.
How long does that all take you think?
54 seconds + 2.7 seconds + 3 seconds + 8 seconds + 1.5 seconds = 69.2 seconds.
Again this factors in nothing else. This is assuming the killer starts their chase at 14ish meters away from the survivor, the survivor doesn't try to mindgame, they don't try to do anything, they just predrop a few pallets. And its a legion. So the survivor is assumed injured, but the killer has no power to speak of to deal with this in any meaningful way.
So by the time you do that, the other 3 survivors are 20 seconds away from finishing 3 gens? Now how many resources did that survivor "waste" oh 3 pallets? Well how many are left? 20? Oh so they still have 85% of the map to work with.
All of this to reason is WHY killers are relying more on tactics rather than pure "mechanical skill" to win games. And those "tactics" are the very things you don't like. Tunneling at the right time, slugging at the right time, hit and run tactics, playing a more macro game instead of a micro one etc. And these are the types of things that survivors complain about the most, even more so than blight or ghoul. Look at how many people complain about say, the knight, or skull merchant before they intentionally made her bad, or sadako who goes for condemn instead of hooks. I personally like to play a more macro style, and most matches i get tons of anger and vitriol thrown at me more so than if i play nurse and just end chases in 10 seconds.
So, this isn't really a complaint as it were about the situation, more of just an analysis. The problem here is that this type of thing LEADS to killers adapting and using strategies that survivors find unfun. The only fix to which is really fundamentally changing the core game to make chases and hooks more important than kills while making tunneling/slugging/camping etc not only not good, but just not possible to do. But this is too much of a task for the devs i think, which is why nothing will change.
Post edited by Reinami on5 -
As a killer main, this is amazingly true now the math is mathing. I can chase and they just run from pallet to pallet if I choose to drop chase then time is wasted esp if they pre-run you and do the same thing to you. Its a damned if you do, damned if you dont situation which is a weird way to feel as a "power role" and even more strange to make someone feel when its already 4v1 perks not even included
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That's also not to say its impossible to deal with. Its personally why typically my strategy is to immediately drop chase after breaking pallet and going somewhere else. And i tend to play either highly mobile killers like blight/ghoul etc, that can get around quickly, or ones with great macro like sadako, knight etc.
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Ah yes, the three god pallets that you can easily chain on every map. We all know those. They definitely exist. You're ignoring reality in favor of a math equation that assumes everyone moves in a straight, mechanical line, and the killer somehow has nothing to help them, while also breaking every (somehow unavoidable) pallet. Most pallets aren't god pallets—most pallets are bad. If someone predrops it and keeps going you just walk around it.You're also ignoring the fact that most killers have some way to hinder your journey on this straight line of perfectly spaced and stellar pallets. Killers have either mobility/catchup/dash (Ghoul, Nurse, Chucky, Spirit), a ranged attack (Deathslinger, Huntress, Plague, Unknown), an antiloop ability (Clown, Doctor, Dredge, Pinhead), or a pallet chewing ability (Oni, Bubba, Micheal, Nemesis), if not a combo of those things (Henry, Billy, Oni, Blight, Singularity, Vecna, Dracula). Plus there's instadowns on many of them. Oh yeah, and popular anti-pallet addons (Legion, Wraith, Wesker). That's not even bringing up perks. And once those pallets are gone, they're gone. You're also ignoring the reality of the maps themselves, like Ormond and Yamaoka, with areas of a bunch of useless rocks and nothing else at all. 70s for a down and all you broke was 3 pallets? If that happens you're bad, terribly outclassed, or you screwed up. You can pretend all this isn't the case, but I know very well that you know what reality looks like in this game.
The problem here is that this type of thing LEADS to killers adapting and using strategies that survivors find unfun.
The pallets were likely put in to help with tunneling, so survivors have resources to slow down the targeted attack. Half the perks killers are complaining about—like Babysitter, DS, and OtR—are anti tunnel perks that have zero effect on you if you aren't looking to double hook. If perks and pallets simply existing has lead to slugging, then slugging needs to be adjusted, not perks and pallets. You shouldn't be able to say you just don't like the proper gameplay and you won't participate in it until you get your way. That shouldn't even be possible.
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In high mmr survivors often use these anti-tunnel perks offensively to force the killer into lose-lose situations. Its a very delicate balance and there's a reason that slugging is back on the table right now.
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This is all true, but really only the tip of the iceberg. You're responding to one of the classic 'bad math' posts that exist on forums.
Other issues
Presumes maps are infinite spaces and that the survivor can just go endlessly and/or that the killer never comes from the middle of the map
Presumes pallets are perfectly spread so the survivor always gets to the next one at the perfect time, never too fast (or the equation doesn't work) or too slow (or the survivor gets hit and the equation doesn't work)
Presumes the killer never runs around the pallet, always breaks the pallet
Presumes the killer has no agency to anticipate the survivor route and zone them in a more favorable direction (i.e. the macro game, in this instance one survivors are fine with)
Presumes this pathing can be accomplished without bypassing another teammate who the killer could switch to
Presumes this pathing can always lead to something like a corner and doesn't end up sticking the survivor on a hook in the center of the gens
Ignores that some of the strongest pallets/areas (shack/main) are also were basement is located, creating a risk/reward scenario
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I do like that we went from @Aven_Fallen 's point about most pallets being unsafe to 'well just find 2-3 god pallets'.
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Almost every killer is massively underperforming in the nightlight statistics and thats all you can say
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There are definitely maps where pallets are not spawning normally, especially indoor maps. However, there are also maps like the Disturbed Ward Realm, Nostromo Wreckage and Eyrie of Crows where there seem to be huge numbers of pallets very close together, often connecting into very powerful loops that are really hard to deal with as Killer. As usual, it's not an issue if you play the top 3 Killers but is extremely uninteractive and annoying if you're not.
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There's a really big difference between slugging someone who's in your face with obvious DS, and bringing a slug build and loading in to a match intending to 4man slug.
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Some maps seem to be stacked with pallets every few inches you can just run an drop with zero fear against most of the roster now.
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Yes - disturbed ward has only 1 pallet in main, but it has 1 god window, almost as good as shack.
But disturbed ward also has a lot of great pallets outside the main. That's the real problem.
This map is problematic - definitely became surv sided, let's just face the truth.
Lerys has dead zones from the start, I agree with that.
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I wonder if they could change pallet density based on MMR of the lobby.
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This would not really make sense, unless there is a mismatch in MMR (high MMR Killer, low MMR Survivors or vice-versa).
A high MMR-Killer can deal with more Pallets more easily than a low MMR-Killer. So if there are less Pallets spawned because the Survivors have high MMR, the Killer will have a very easy time if they are also good at the game.
Meanwhile if a lot of Pallets are spawned because the Survivors are low MMR, the Killer will struggle because they are also low MMR and cannot really deal with a lot of Pallets (e.g. by breaking every single one of those unsafe Pallets like many people are apparently doing…).
It would only make sense if the Survivors are low MMR and the Killer high MMR, because more Pallets would help the low MMR Survivors. Or if the Killer is low MMR but the Survivors are high MMR, because then less Pallets will make it easier for the Killer. But aside from mismatched MMR, it would not really work.
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Majority of pallets and fillers are utterly trash and they’ve even removed some of the few good ones, like those on Disturbed Ward and Lerys.
Post edited by Mortimer on3 -
and thats great, but personally i cant stand hearing the ghoul scream every 20 seconds and i am not paying for the girl skin because im done dumping money into this game. all in all i just feel that maybe its not impossible but unless you find yourself a killer whos A→S tier the game feels really bad and might as well chop half the roster if only those feel good to play. not to mention that we also sit in queue to get gen rushed to oblivion and it makes me not want to spend time hooking a surv at all.
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This is the m.o of virtually every killer poster here especially the one in question because they have some weird agenda where killer should be balanced around trapper and survivor should be balanced around 4-man swf.
I like how they tell on themselves within the first line by minimizing how many killers don't care about pallets these days.
That 'etc' is doing monumental work.4 -
I'll definitely say this is the hardest time to play killer I've ever experienced. Which is saying a lot since I joined the same month they added Circle of Healing.
Which isn't to say old CoH, DS and DH weren't better than what survivors have now, but the playerbase as a whole was less skilled. Survivors are much better these days and it makes trying to win a nightmare.
So many games I'm having consistently <30s chases and lose anyway.
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A big reason you didn't get as many complaints about pallet density is because the map rotation kept people off the major maps affected like Mac and Auto until recently.
While I think Midwich might be okay now, Hawkins and maybe Lery's still seem bugged to not spawn some previously guaranteed pallets, especially in the large rooms. For example in one large room on Hawkins, there are stairs that directly lead into a vault that should drop down into a pallet that sometimes doesn't spawn (I can get a screenshot later).
Shelter Woods and Suffocation Pit still seem egregiously stacked with pallets.
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I'm sorry but this feels like bhvr really does not care about the killer players at all. you have every other content creator talking about how many busted pallets there are, survivor and killer mains alike.
it also doesn't matter how safe or unsafe they are since you can chain too many strong loops with the small tiles that never seem to run out. I don't have the time to do a 20s mindgame around a "weak pallet" every single chase as an m1 killer with no mobility power. just load into a few macmillans, especially iron works, groaning storehouse and shelter woods. or literally any map in that realm. or autohaven, or borgo. there are just too many pallets chaining each other while some other maps *still* feel empty.
some maps needed changes, yes. but not every map. the only reason it's halfway bearable is because we never play on these maps lately anyway because there only seems to be lerys, Hawkins, midwich, toba and nostromo, even after last update.
if I find the time I can take some screenshots. but 18+ pallets on every map is just not great game design when 70% of your characters cannot deal with them and only get kills because the other side is either a lot worse or gives up/disconnects because they throw a hissy fit over whatever happened in that match.
I really used to like spending my evenings with this game but I can't do more than 2 killer games in a row without coming close to a heart attack from the stress it takes to get a 2k. meanwhile I don't feel like booting up solo queue because my teammates just DC or grief for literally any tiny reason.
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