Cross Examination
Been seeing very little discussion about this new survivor perk as it seems most people are going after wide open throttle, and it can be hard to get value outta it against someone like Jason with him being a 2 tapping machine and part ranged killer.
It seems a bit strong (especially against low tiers shocker), and power creeps most other stealth chase perks with almost no downside and is beyond free at loops.
The only stealth perks I’d say are still worth after this patch would be the reworked self preservation and distortion but those are mostly out of chase stealth perks to counter stuff like dearstalker, bbq and friends till the end, or lethal in distortions case.
Iron will, lucky break, dance with me, parental guidance, lightweight, are worthless compared to cross examination as it has no cooldown and its downside needing to be in a terror radius, isn’t really good enough downside as most killers won’t be getting undetectable mid chase.
What are y’all’s opinion on Cross Examination?
Comments
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Cross Examination is likely the most broken survivor perk they've released and BHVR has released some really broken survivor perks over the years. It basically allows survivors to break any chase they want unless they are facing a ranged killer or a killer who is undetectable.
Elusive as a status also does way too much imo and it would be better if it was split into individual statuses like 1 that blocks sounds of pain, 1 that blocks scratch marks, and 1 that blocks auras. I do not think survivors should have the ability to block killer instinct which Elusive also does.
And the fact the perk went to ptb in its current form is very telling about how well the devs understand their own game.
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I would give my opinion, but this person made a fairly detailed feedback video about it with live footage examples of how it is an issue. Cross exam starts at 3:30
It essentially gives Survivors the strongest effect in the entire game for simply looping the killer.
However, this belongs in the PTB feedback forums.
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Killer perk: Speak french backwards while running at exactly 8.5 mph, with your left big toe curled to hinder the survivor for 3 seconds.
Survivor perk: Literally just loop the killer like normal to become elusive with zero downside, zero real effort required.
Basically the strongest status effect in the game and they can just get it for free by… looping. You get essentially 4 other survivor perks in one status effect… by just looping.
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could a killer not just immediately turn around and find somebody with this perk?
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No considering it lasts quite some time. If you need a real example, try looping a survivor even without the perk. While looping, stop what youre doing and turn around. Did you find the survivor?
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Proof that most killers have gotten used to using reshade as a crutch and can't play without their neon red filter winning the game for them.
Remember Jason has an addon that removes his terror radius upon picking up a spear so you can win mind games for free. If you want to call out a survivor perk for being broken, do the same for Jason by running only a rare addon, while still running 4 slowdown.
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Question to people who do not like the elusive effect / this perk, would you be ok with the perk if it was just pools of blood and scratch marks and not the elusive effect?
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I don't think just reducing the amount of stealth effects will fix the perk. Fundamentally the perk is just way too accessible and invalidates any stealth perk that does the same thing. Like this would still be an objectively better Lucky Break.
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Yeah but it adds more tracking opportunities for the killer in the form of aura reading and grunts of pain rather then giving them no options.
I understand standpoint where its too easy to proc I just enjoy these sort of effects in game, What if it something like "after you loose chase" was added as a activation requirement as well? That would also not invalidate Lucky break as you can use lucky break without having to break chase first.0 -
How have you managed to turn this into a reshade thing…
Scratch marks are a fundamental aspect of the game, they exist there whether you have reshade or not. You can see scratch marks just fine, whether you have reshade or not. Mind you it isn't just scratch marks that gets removed, it also entirely hides blood pools AND grunts of pain, AND blocks their aura from being read.
So you're just yapping.
Do I need to explain to you the difference between killers being able to go undetectable and survivors going full stealth, or is it 2026 and these things in DBD are self explanatory at this point?
If you have any sizable amount of time on this game, you should know by now why one has a stronger impact than the other. If you don't then you are either just not knowledgeable enough in the game or you're being disingenuous.
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I will be honest that i was more concerned due to Wide Open Throttle being able to turn the gigantic amount of filler pallets we have right now into lose-lose situations for killers… like, you won half of a mindgame, leave the tile with the extra speed, reset the pallet and reach another pallet. Again, this perks might not be the end of the world against Blight and Nurse but for many other killers it will be hell on earth.
About Cross Examination… maybe it shouldn't work on chase? That my biggest grip with the perk. Maybe it could be a perk to stealth away from killer outside on chase, not while you are on it.
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At almost every tile you can see the survivor during chase. This perk doesn't turn them invisible. They have to step on your footprints to gain elusive.
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Killswitch it or make it come with buffs to lower tier killers that let them disable all survivor perks for using their power well.
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Being hit by a killer M1 or right in front of them also qualifies, plus survivors have no issue running circles around the killer when they feel like it.
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high wall loops like jungle gyms shack and indoor maps exist also the hitbox id so big you can get hit and it procs not to mention it's multi floor
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This perk can be used to make plays at basically any tile that isn't a chest high wall.
I actually think the perk's design is interesting and with some extra limitations on it (like how often you can gain the effect) it could make for an interesting perk that skilled survivors can use, but it's too easy to activate at the moment.
Chasing a survivor using this perk into any tile where the two sides break line of sight can easily cause you to lose track of them. They might even just leave the loop once you no longer have sight of each other and they gain elusive, and you would have no way of knowing.
Keep in mind that you have the Elusive status effect constantly as long as you're stepping on the killer's trail, not just for 5 seconds and then it goes away. The 5 seconds starts only after you're no longer in the trail.
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Man yeah cross examination is busted, here's hoping bhvr are smart enough to change it before release. Perhaps they should make the light spots visible to killer, because going against this perks and having little to no way to know if it's being used is going to SUCK. At least that way killers will know who's going to try pulling double backs and turn them into a 50/50.
Sidenote this perk will ruin days for a lot of spirit players.
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I don't mind Elusive giving a full stealth mode.
But, I'll admit, on a perk like Cross Examination, it is kind of too much.
For that perk specifically, an effect like "reduces cries of pain and footsteps" could be more fitting.
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I think that we should not got after the Light Marks, which are imo the coolest part of the perk.
The Elusive is the problem here, and the perk probably should only give 1 stealth effect instead of all of them
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It seems like what they thought "dance with me" and thalitas vault perk were going to feel like. Only they didnt end up that great.
Being able to turn your aura and scratch marks off mid chase in walled loops without having to vault is Going to be a pain to deal with at nearly every main building.
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I mean I'm not going after the marks, just saying killer should see them too so they have an inkling of who's using this perk. But yeah the elusive is the real problem. Just have it hide scratch marks and aura allows ppl a chance to clear chase while still allowing the killer ro follow audio cues
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- Plenty of tiles have walls or objects that obscure the survivor. You're just lying if you say otherwise.
- Stepping on footprints is not hard, you literally walk over the killers path ALL the time during a normal loop.
There is no outlandish activation requirement, it is quite literally "just loop the killer normally and become elusive" lol.
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Elusive does not block Killer Instinct.
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if killer instinct decides to work.
Post rework trickster and springtrap still have killer instinct bugs with just refusing to proc on survivors in your axe radius or in your terror radius when hitting S rank
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You would think no one is getting killed on the PTB with this perk in existence given the doom posting about it. Might I suggest you use the counterplay survivors have to engage in when killers are undetectable - use your eyes and attempt to predict pathing if LOS is broken. Sometimes you'll be wrong, sure - just like sometimes a survivor is wrong. Welcome to the club, isn't it fun?
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I think they should adjust the hitbox of the killer scratchmarks. Its not ok that it activates from miles away and through floors.
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Reshades shouldn't be a thing imo.
As for undetectable, there is a difference. As a survivor it's much easier to track killer (especially if they are tall like jason) with your 3rd person camera. Undetectable doesn't give you free mindgames (especially if you are playing a tall character), otherwise GF wouldn't be so bad and everyone would run undetectable perks.
The add-on you are referring to gives Jason ONLY 9s of undetectable. If you geniuenly got cought off guard with this add-on, maybe you shouldn't speak on dbd's balance.
The necessity of slowdown in current survivor meta cannot be understated even with how 80% of the killer slowdown perks are shadows of their former self. As i understand diminishing returns does affect slowdown perks as well. If Bhvr wants killers to run more diverse builds, nerf slowdown perks in a way to discourage stacking them and buff both the weaker ones like surge, cob or grim embrace and chase perks stbfl, unbound etc
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problem being, like someone already mentioned, killers mostly are far easier to see due to their models and the fact that survivors are in 3rd person.
Imagine how incredibly strong undetectable would be if survivors were in 1st person, now thankfully that would never happen.
And again cross examination really only hurts low tier killers. Someone like vecna 2 with his ranged playstyle and massive 3rd person camera in upside-down won’t be affected by this perk very much, but the short pig or hag will very much struggle to keep track of survivors, especially when the hitbox of the light marks is so big that you get the elusive by getting M1’d.
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What's your opinion on why the terror radius and red stains exist in the first place? Why do you think killers run undetectable add-ons or perks or oblivious causing perks if not to gain an advantage? If it's so easy to just see these killers when looping as a survivor then certainly they wouldn't be bothering with plaything or similar perks, yes?
Yes, there's obviously a difference between 1st and 3rd person cameras. That doesn't mean the difference is so great that erasing a killer's terror radius and red stain is no big deal while hiding a survivor's auras, sounds, and scratch marks is effectively a free teleport away from the killer.
Will this perk let some survivors in some situations successfully evade the killer? Yes. Why would they run a perk that has no chance of helping them? Will it do so more frequently than undetectable helps killers get hits on survivors? I doubt it.
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Killer are louder than survivor, they all have a heavy breathing sound or at least heavy footsteps (Nemesis, Knight), and most of the Undetectable perks killer have are very conditional. Powers have a map wide sound effect, or at least some sort of SFX that makes it clear the killer will be using his power.
Survivors also have a 3rd person camera that makes that make tracking easier.
Undetectable on killer is FAR WEAKER than Elusive is for survivor.
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One health state can completely change the tide of the game to favor the killer. If someone can't track a red stain or use the chase music to determine distance, they have a higher chance of losing a mindgame. It's really that simple.
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Do you also complain about windows for doing what it says? What about perks like dissolution: m1 like normal and shut down every unsafe pallet loop.
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Elusive for survivor is EQUALLY STRONG as undetectable for killer. See, I can make statements in caps too.
Killer players just don't want to have to deal with the same annoying mechanics survivors have to with this. I get it - undetectable can be annoying to go against as a survivor and killers probably aren't used to their cues being taken away like that. If one side has to deal with it though the other can at least give it a go before they claim the sky is falling.
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oh it will 100% be stronger than the equivalent undetectable perks and add ons.
Most of them are: conditional, map dependent, and killer dependent, or have very weak numbers, and countered by comms(shocker swfs stay winning)
you mentioned plaything, it’s a hex perk that requires you to hook the survivor first in order to start seeing value and only works on 1 survivor at a time, and it can be turned off permanently for the rest of the game if one person recognizes it and decides to pre cleanse totems for the team(I’ve also been seeing more and more counterforce so hex builds are inherently a tad weaker), and again countered by a simple ‘he has plaything’ upon being hooked neutering the surprise factor and only really affecting solo Q/newer players.And even then you can point Jason’s new stealth perk in the same patch! It’s active only at the start of the game for a whopping 13 secs…. and endgame where undetectable matters the least, wow incredible… like I’d actually take machine learning over this, at least it has the 8% haste tac’d on for a long time even if I only get 1 activation perk game.
The closest thing on the killer side we have to cross examination id say would be scratch mirror myers, its on 100 percent of the time and generates free value match wide, on problems being if myers doesnt get his indoor maps and his breathing is super audible at tall loops, and is countered by comms.
Cross examination while not being active ALL game, still generates free value when it’s needed most and survivors don’t exactly have to worry about comms letting the killer know where you are 24/7. Like if a survivor runs self-preservation, cross examination, overcome, with a good medkit, good f-ing luck ever catching/keeping track of them.
And again the only reliable counter, that isn’t a perk or some niche killer instinct interaction, is High tiers and houndmaster who has very reliable tracking base-kit, and I guess maybe throw SM in there because of the radar but it’s not uncommon to go a whole match without getting scanned by a drone and it’s still just a skull merchant.-3 -
survivors don’t have to deal with comms letting them know your every play and position match wide.
So no, killers and survivors don’t have to deal with the same things at least in this specific situation.-2 -
Neither do killers the vast majority of the time.
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Its not the same. Even if it was - hypothetically - , survivor isn't compared in 1v1 to killers, they need to be compared as 1v4 to killers. How can a single survivor be under a effect ""so strong"" as a killer could have? If the game was 1v1 that would make sense but in the current DBD design it doesn't make sense.
Try for yourself playing a full undetectable build and you will see that you don't get that much value as much as time you think you will get, because killers have tons of visual and audio cues that tell survivors they are near, ready to attack and use their powers.
About elusive: Killers have a much smaller fov, survivors don't have terror radius , scratch marks and sounds are the only cues they have to track a survivor while in chase. The time a killer loses by losing track of a survivor is much more valuable than the other way around, since the killer time is """4x more valuable""" than it is the survivor's time.-4 -
I think it's about time we got interesting perks as survivor, they look so much fun for once. I can't count how many games last years anniversary I kept trying to get value out of the likes of Last Stand and It'd be like 1 out of 10 games, that's not good perk design.
I feel like this is the first set since Dramaturgy I've liked the look out of the 3 perks and can see actual use cases for them.
I think it's time to let survivor get new toys for once.0 -
5 steps ahead, fast track(before the nerf), self preservation, bada-bada boom, ghost notes, conviction, duty of care, do no harm, shoulder the burden, bardic, finesse, strength in shadows.
Are all recent perks that vary in use cases and are pretty effective at their jobs, especially 5STA being better windows, conviction being one of the best slugging and repositioning tools in the game, finesse being one of the most infuriating perks to play into, and of course shoulder the burden….then you got killer with, turn back the clock, secret project, maybe phantom fear?, jagged compass, wretched fate, weave(pre nerf and pre franklins nerf), unforeseen, and friends till the end.
a couple of these are stretches on both sides, but on average survivor tends to get better perks more often, or they at least stay strong for a long time with finesse and shoulder being the 2 main contenders for not seeing a nerf.
ever since the dreaded gen kick meta with CoB/eruption/pop/overcharge, killer perks on average stay strong/meta for a lesser amount of time, with the outlier being pain res/dms as nothing else is as good as those two paired up. And this isn’t even considering killswitch scenarios with bhvr refusing to disable streetwise because it “wasn’t a problem” when it was objectively broken.
I don’t mean to be pedantic as you can honestly make a case for both sides and go back and forth all day it’s just the ‘let survivors have some new toys for once’ really rubbed me the wrong way, as with the current state of pallet density, survivors are at their strongest as anything below Mid B tier is beyond miserable to playEdit: also this doesn’t take into F2P as most of survivors strongest options are on original characters and easily grindable. Especially with now that they lost the Halloween license you can get DS for free and SB, lithe, windows, botany, resilience, shoulder all being top perks that are easily accessible.
yet for killer a lot of the original perks aren’t good or require a completely different killers perk to be viable like with weave + franklins, like without franklins weave is terrible and you’d never run it. At least this problem is slowly getting better with the loss of the pinhead license.
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I’m gonna assume we’re still talking about swfs here?
Statically speaking, yes you are correct you don’t actually play against 4 man’s every game but you know what’s far more common?
2 duos, a duo and 2 solos, and a trio and soloAdd all of those on top of 4 man swfs and that’s a majority of games where people are on comms.
If only every game was actually 4 solo queues perks and killers could be far better balanced, but that’s not the reality as solo queue only would kill the game overnight.
But if we’re talking a LTM for solos only that could be a fun experiment.
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You were the one who said "survivors don’t have to deal with comms letting them know your every play and position match wide."
Even if most matches included at least 2 people grouped up you're still making assumptions that I disagree with. SWF does not equal comms. Comms does not equal people calling out the killer's position the whole match.
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Apologies. I just wanted to re-clarify as your post didn’t leave me much to go on ‘neither do killers a vast majority of the time’ could’ve meant a few different things. Anyway getting back on topic.
Even if it’s not comp level callouts with numbered sections of the map and specific tile callouts.
A simple: killer has this, killer is heading towards you, killer is committing to me.
Is more than enough when it comes to shutting down any form of surprise.
I play duo survivor regularly or solo q neither or us are survivor savants as we both majorly play killer, but the difference is night and day with those simple level of comms compared to no comms at all.-1 -
Let me clarify in what I mean by "New toys" I mean new mechanics we've not gotten before: Full throttle is cool using the entity to lift up pallets, Permanent heal progress with lend a hand and a cool ability to see light trails and buff yourself by playing risky, lots of interaction is promoted in these perks and they sound useful. I'm thinking of fog vials etc, stuff which could be used in chase or to help others but were nerfed into uselessness for a while (they are fine now?). Bada Bada boom is a great example of a perk which could be great if we didn't get so many killers who didnt vault ever recently.
I'll give you some of these are fun but there is an issue of the likes of Bada Bada boom barely comes in use because of all the anti loop powers in the game, not to mention the killer it came out with never needs to vault in the first place.
Bardic is basically an overglorified emote, Mirrored illusion could have been something special too.
I want more perks like Dramaturgy/scene partner/plot twist which are fun to use but not absurdly broken1 -
How are you comparing being able to see where pallets and windows are to a survivor gaining THE STRONGEST STATUS EFFECT IN THE GAME FOR FREE.
????? It's like 4 different survivor perks in one status effect.
Like genuinely, there is no way a functioning brain that isn't just trying to be disingenuous for the sake of arguing, reaches the conclusion that those two things are equal.
Especially bringing up dissolution. Mind you, dissolution has been considered awful since it's inception, I'm not letting survivor players let this garbage revisionist history fly.
Dissolution only saw an uptick in playtime because the devs decided to add more pallets to damn near every single map in the game. Every map is now filled to the brim with pallets, so yes killers will start using a pallet related perk, that does not mean dissolution is a problem.
It is quite literally as simple as 1 + 1 = 2.
Y'all make it so hard to take convos seriously because y'all do not care about balance. I will gladly point out problematic aspects of killers but consistently in discussion, y'all refuse to admit something is a problem. Even some other actually sane survivor players repeating the same thing… it's busted. You should not be able to gain one of the strongest status effects in the game, by just looping the killer normally.
Like no… a killer going undetectable is not the same as a survivor having elusive, if you cannot understand that then again. You're being disingenuous or you're a baby to the game, freshly installed it yesterday. Which atp that's not your fault you don't get it yet, but you're wrong.
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To be fair the "Strongest" status effect you're on about is in chase where they are within eyesight of the killer, so that means footsteps are still able to be heard, it'd be different if it was in a loop over where the likes of Nowhere to hide etc can't work.
I personally want the perks to be fun, not overpowered, this isn't stopping the killer from hitting you or using your power to get you, not to mention killer instinct still procs on elusive doesn't it? So it's not as bad as you make it out to be.
I still think these perks have plenty counter play, they don't take the killers controller for them, it'd be different if they did. These aren't OG Made for This or Buckle up's rework not too long ago.1 -
"Everything I disagree with is bait."
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Awfully knowledgeable for someone who just made their own account.
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So you've been lurking for six years on a private profile, reading 1000 posts from one person, and only just now decided to start posting?
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Ok then, your account is 6 years old (which is not visible) and has never been used until today, and you've spent some outrageous amount of time obsessively back reading a thousand post form one forum member. That's way more logical.
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