https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/472588/future-of-dead-by-daylight-forums
So, Diminishing Returns
When are we reverting or tweaking this?
Ever since diminishing returns I've just been getting bored of running the same builds because there's been no point experimenting or just running stacking builds.
It's just lame knowing after the second perk in the stack chain no matter how small the numbers it still gets wrecked by diminishing returns. Even if it's less than 10% to things. It's wild.
I've not seen any mention of it since it was just slapped into the live game & it's still the worst thing to have come from the last update. I argued that it is a healthy thing for the game but not the way it's been done, it affects even the weakest perks & has ruined build crafting which in my opinion wasn't a problem anyway but also shouldn't be something we're trying to destroy. I still remember it being said we were trying to encourage the use of the other perks in the library yet here we are.
So, any news or any mention of addressing this awful change?
Comments
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You're looking to wait around a year since Diminishing Returns was released, because BHVR works slow. I do not know how this is a surprise to people after 10 years of BHVR being very slow to change things.
16 -
I promise, Diminishing Returns has had very little impact on build crafting.
Some of the more interesting and useful synergies don't involve stacking the same % effect, and the way the DR system works you can still very reasonably stack two in the same build if there's some reason you'd want to do that. I'm a big believer in build crafting, I think it's one of the most interesting and compelling parts of the game, and while some of my builds are affected on a strictly literal level absolutely none of them have been killed.
What kind of builds do you like, what's your playstyle? I'm more than willing to pitch some builds and synergies that still exist if you do really want to run something other than the meta.
-12 -
The fact they didn't update any perks when diminishing returns was implemented says a lot to me.
25 -
I don't need build advice from someone who doesn't think that buildcrafting was affected by diminishing returns. Perks are made more viable or make for better use when they can be stacked with other similar perks. Weak perks will be weak but could be given some value or viability when paired with other perks. Many perks that stack though are never going to be used EVER because after the second perk the stack becomes practically redundant.
12 -
Some builds are affected, I wouldn't claim otherwise.
However, it's really relevant here that stacking the same effect is NOT the entirety of buildcrafting. There are a lot more ways of finding synergies than just using the same modifier more than once, and using the same modifier more than twice has always been either a silly gimmick or something people did because the combo ended up broken.
1 -
Idk what builds you mean but when I watched vid from mintskull where he had math and like only differece on like breaking/vaulting build was few % change like from 1,2 seconds to 1,4 seconds or something like that or strongest/fastest healing build heals instead 3,3 seconds or what was it now in 5 seconds yeah deffinitely world ending situation for stacking builds.
-9 -
Not trying to be snarky or anything, but if that's all it did then why did they use precious dev time implementing it in the first place? There were already so many mediocre perks, and it feels like diminishing returns just created a longer list of trash tier perks to balance, like Leader, Better Than New, Fire Up, etc. :/
16 -
Idk what they created it for some claim to make perks stronger to be good alone but not abuseable when stacked.
All I know is that the numbers arent so hard nerfed into oblivion as some people claim, theres that video on Yt from mintskull and he has many facts and exsamples there so go watch it for more because right now I dont remember these facts from devs he used there.
-5 -
DR doesn't have to have a huge affect during this PTB in order to be a great idea.
It allows them more room to maneuver in the future, knowing that they don't have to worry about stacking as much.
You don't have to like it, but "If it's not doing anything, then why implement it at all?" is a very easy question to answer.
-6 -
My understanding is that it's meant to stabilise the baseline, to stop any future stacking from becoming a problem. It's happened before, with healing speed or repair speed penalties, so it's worth protecting against I think.
It also isn't really affecting individual perks that much. Leader's still in the same "this is a fine perk but hardly a top tier" position it's always been in, BTN is exactly as bad as it was before, Fire Up still isn't worth bringing… the DR system just isn't moving the needle at all here.
2 -
This only really affected haste stacking long term which is fine. People did tests and full healing builds were nerfed at most 15%. And even then you could just run botany + auto didact and that's 2 separate healing sources so diminishing returns wont affect that. As for gen speeds…. We really don't need more gen progression to be in the game.
2 -
Like when mintskull tested it and strongest healing build that healts at 3,xx some seconds is now like 5 seconds then I dont see problem and as you say autodidact is underated it takes time to build up but then it rocks and with some increased healing speed its pretty good.
-1 -
I'm all for trying to future-proof perk stacking, and while I think they could have been less heavy handed, I brought up those perks specifically because they get especially screwed over by DR. They needed buffs before DR, and they need bigger buffs after. I could list more perks, but I think you get the idea.
Imo, the dust has settled from DR, and it's time for them to give more attention to old perks that don't make sense in modern DBD, whether it's just number changes, additional effects, or full blown perk reworks.
0 -
Hello!!
Thanks for taking the time to write out your thoughts, even the criticism are always appreciated!
We'd be interested in hearing more about what people think - which perks would you like to see changed due to Diminishing Returns? What builds do you feel it has affected? Anything else you can think of that's relevant, please please feel free to let us know!
Thanks!
5 -
Here's my feedback regarding Diminishing returns as a healing build enjoyer:
First thing - 'Builds it has affected the most':
On the survivor side, 'Healing' centric builds are the main thing that has taken a hit from these changes and I believe that was one of the intentions behind the system to begin with as it was quite well known that fast healing on the survivor side can completely break the game for a lot of the Killer roster.
The issue is, the best healing perks in the game (We'll make it, We're gonna live forever, Botany Knowledge and Circle of Healing) are all good by themselves and usually aren't the perks that get toned down by Diminishing returns. It's the weaker perks that suffer, effectively making them dead perk slots if you run them with the better perks despite the weaker perks usually being good 'combo' pieces when combined.
Let's take two weaker perks and combo them together and see what happens:
Example: Desperate measures + Empathic connection:
So Desperate Measures increases healing speed & unhooking speed by 20% per injured survivor and Empathic connection increases altruistic healing speed by 35%. Now think about this:
Desperate measures at 1 injury goes from 20% to 10%
Then 2 injuries it goes to 40%, causing empathic connection to be permanently set to 17.5%. Making it effectively a dead perk slot outside of it's aura, despite this being such a small increase
This just means people will look at these perks and just go "nah, medkits, wglf, botany knowledge and we'll make it or nothing".
tl;dr: When it comes to healing, the system makes weak perks weaker and only slightly tones down the stronger combos. Also does nothing about Resurgence which undermines the whole notion of Diminishing returns helping combat fast heal speeds.
Second Thing - Gen rush/speed increase builds were not really affected:
So 'generator speed' stacking perks do get toned down by Diminishing returns. That is a fact and personally I think that's for the best overall. a lot of Killers struggle with generators as is and feel the need to run slowdown perks to help. The issue though the best 'genrush' combos were not toned down in the slightest by Diminishing returns.
The only generator speed increases you're going to see people using outside of toolboxes are resillience, deja-vu and prove thyself and that's it. I highly doubt diminishing returns impacts any of these perks to any significant degree.
Hyperfocus + Stake out have 0 interactions with diminishing returns as far as I can tell as none of them actually modify the 'speed' of the repairs, what they do is increase the amount of progress a skillcheck gives a generator and correct me if I'm wrong but that isn't in the list of modifiers on the list.
I've missed a ton of stuff from the Killer side but I haven't experience much of the system on the Killer side, I imagine its mainly impacting haste centric builds or full gen speed debuff builds like thana + dying light + pentimento or something like that.
11 -
Hard caps make way more sense than this stupid system.
17 -
bhvr already tried hard caps, people hated that too.
6 -
Exactly. The thread itself is basically a complaint asking when people will be able to abuse it again. It really shows how little some people care about balance, the game itself, or the rest of the players.
If it was removed, there was probably a reason for it, just like the old mori after the first hook or the syringe that could heal two health states.
-5 -
I think we'll see it in the Midchapter, I'm looking forward to the live balance updates
1 -
Then maybe they should stop doing things that people hate.
Also, I don't remember them ever testing hard caps. I only remember them removing haste perks from stacking with each other at all.
2 -
Or maybe people should learn to accept that some changes are necessary for the health of the game (not haste stacking removal specifically, just in general), instead of throwing a fit and proclaiming that ''nobody asked for this'' whenever something gets added or gets changed that they don't personally like.
Also i guarantee you, the people who hated haste stacking removal will also hate hard caps too.
-5 -
You're giving a huge benefit of the doubt to a team that hasn't earned it. A change that affected none of the meta builds on either side while nerfing niche fun builds for both sides is "healthy" SURE.
"Don't think! Just consume product and get excited for next product!"
7 -
Except some of said niche builds were also overtuned and unhealthy for the game, stacking 4 of the same effects together to a ridiculous amount is not good for neither the balance nor the health of the game, no matter how subjectively fun you may think they are.
Also at least i'm not a reactionary with a hostile attitude towards others who don't agree with me.
-4 -
Some impacted builds I used are,
Speed build, power of two and blood pact some pair with hope, boon dark theory. (Very niche build hard to pull off and keeps two people within arms reach and off gens, blood lust will bring a down. Countered by dash killers, range killers, teleport, hinder and strategic zoning.)
Medic builds: like- botany, desperate measures, empathetic, solidarity
End game hero builds- no one left behind, resilience and desperate measures, spine chill...for those end game hook stand offs
Borrowed time and babysitter
Reactive healing tank builds, Reactive healing, desperate measures, botany, self care, again two people off gens in close proximity same counters as haste build and general double hits
Any Healing assistance for self care
No Mither builds, boon exponential, unbreakable, plot twist,
Hex cleansing builds, resilience, counter force, spine chill, leader, boon illumination, flow state
Sabo builds, Sabo, resilience, tool box ( hooks already spawn every 5 ft all over the map and are no longer permanently broken on death, tool boxe chargs are limited)
NO I don't play killer very often but my
Speed vault gimmick build is affected
Super lunge Michael build is
My fast pig build- Play with your food, batteries, rapid brutality
4 -
Most builds just feel terrible now because there's no concrete way to calculate on the fly what percentage increase or decrease a stat will apply, and the game does not show you until your build works in game.
I understand that this change was a way to mitigate stacking stats so that a new perk edition wouldn't facilitate having to rebalance other perks, but most of the time if you stack enough perks for something like healing for instance, you are lacking in other areas such as gen progression and are probably also lacking any second chance perks. This means a player has a clear strength, but also a clear weakness.
Ultimately, reverting the whole system feels like the right call. Only applying diminishing returns on some actions and not others feels bad in theory. Personally I want at least the recovery speed stacking to be reverted, I like to occasionally combo no mither + unbreakable + conviction + soul guard to attract the killer's attention for as long as possible. The diminishing returns makes it increasingly difficult to get off conviction, which already has a ticking timer on it.
I think at the end of the day, I think a lot of people would prefer the flat reversion of this system. The positives of the old system vastly outweigh the negatives.
7 -
I think most here have already given examples I would've mentioned myself, but what I don't see is something I really wish would be added so I understand more how much diminishing returns is impacting me.
- Something in lobby to indicate equipped perks will be affected by diminishing returns. Much like how various perks in the bloodmoon event highlighted they wouldn't be compatible with that event, I want my perks to update once I've equipped them to show that they will be affected
- An actual number in-game to show how much my build is benefiting me. Yes, I can sit down and figure out the math for my own perks, but that doesn't take my team into account. I have run for about a year now the same build (Bond, Empathic Connection, WGLF, and Adrenaline). My duo very often runs Leader. I want a number somewhere showing me what I'm getting out of my build in real time that also takes into account your team so I can determine whether I want to try something else. Something similar for haste is used during 2v8 for killer that pops up briefly on screen showing both the percentage haste being applied and the time. Can this not be worked out for diminishing returns too?
4 -
While nothing's being directly and dramatically affected (outside of stacking four of the same modifier, which was the point anyway), there are a few things I'd personally think are worth looking at, which I'll put in a bulletin list for convenience:
- Power of Two and Blood Pact. Specifically together; it's the only time anyone ran these two perks that I'm aware of, and even then it was a gimmick thing. It's one of the few instances where I think the lessened stacking actually matters for just two perks, but what I'd recommend is slightly buffing Power of Two then reworking Blood Pact, there's no reason for both to be in the game at once.
- Fire Up. While this perk's main draw - the pickup speed - isn't affected that much, it is one of those instances where you'd want to pair it with something else for the other effects (think Brutal Strength for the break speed, or Bamboozle for the vault speed) but the new system makes that not really worth it. This isn't catastrophic for Fire Up because it does multiple things at once, so one thing being lowered is less relevant proportionally, but it's still worth looking at.
- Babysitter. Now I might be wrong about this, I haven't had this perk used on me so I can't test, but I believe Babysitter's Haste effect is just immediately and inherently reduced by the off-hook Haste you get by default. Again, not a catastrophic deal because Babysitter does more things + the Haste lasts longer than the basekit Haste anyway, but worth looking at.
- Champion of Light and Fixated. Specifically together, the two are fine individually with other strong use cases, but I think the combo's worth evaluating. Could be a reasonable thing to accept as collateral, could warrant changes.
- Better Than New. This isn't a perk that's actually affected by the DR system itself, but I want to highlight that the DR system opens up a new buff for this perk to allow it to give a chase buff- if you give it vault speed now, stacking with Finesse is less scary, and then the perk can fully realise its potential as "you're now buffed for anything you do except repair".
- In general, small percentage Haste perks like Batteries Included and Undone can safely be made a bit better than they currently are. This probably applies to survivor too but the only one I can think of off the top of my head is Dark Theory which I don't think necessarily should be buffed that way, it needs a secondary effect more than a numbers buff.
I wouldn't consider this list a rundown of perks that need changes because of the DR system, at least not all of them, but I do think these are among the best potential candidates for the DR system allowing more robust buffs.
Overall this system was implemented pretty smoothly. It does what it's meant to without significant collateral damage. However, at the same time, a huge amount of this system's potential value is in the future changes it allows, so I'd really love to see those changes happen sometime soon.
0 -
I'm fine with perks not stacking but I don't think killer powers should. Always loved Bamboozle on Myers or Rapid Brutality on Dracula coz it stacked with the wolf. I've just reverted to using 4 slowdowns on those killers now which is boring for everyone
-1 -
I think if they wanted to 'fix' babysitter, they could rework it to behave like 'No one Left Behind' where it doesn't give the survivor haste, it INCREASES their basekit haste by the % instead.
Maybe some would think that's too strong but that's how babysitter worked pre-diminishing returns so it can't have been too bad.
4 -
Yeah, I had a similar thing in mind, something like that would neatly fix this particular issue.
3 -
that would fix it for sure
1 -
Any haste/hinder with Clown feels awful now. You have two entire categories of perks cut off from you. Really any killer that hinders or gets haste feels bad with these perks due to them being negatively affected by their basekit abilities. The same goes for haste perks interacting with basekit haste on survivor from being unhooked. There should be no interaction with basekit features or powers.
7 -
Here's a list of what I consider to be perks most affected by DR:
Survivors:
- Better than New
- Blood Pact
- Boon: Dark Theory
- Desperate Measures
- Do No Harm
- Empathic Connection
- Flow State
- Friendly Competition
- Leader
- Quick Gambit
- Teamwork: Full Circuit (repair speed increase)
- Teamwork: Power of Two
- Teamwork: Soft-Spoken (repair speed increase)
Killer:
- All-Shaking Thunder (when used with Coup de Grâce)
- Bamboozle (vault speed)
- Coulrophobia
- Dying Light/Cull the Weak
- Dark Arrogance
- Fire Up
- Knock Out
- Leverage
- Overcharge
- Scourge Hook: Weeping Wounds/Scourge Hook: Gift of Pain
- Thanatophobia
Keep in mind these are just the perks that seem especially affected by DR to me, not all perks that I believe need changes; otherwise this list would be quite long.
6 -
This is literally my whole point. I appreciate that so many here actually understand what I mean.
The builds most affected are the ones that made use of the weaker perks in our line up which is something I assumed we were trying to encourage but here we are with diminishing returns only affecting those said perks. The usual strong perks or the basic meta is unaffected & therefore means games are getting boring just using the same stuff over & over because why run the fun stuff when it's not even fun because two of the perks are basically doing nothing for it now anyway.?
5 -
I agree completely. This was nearly my whole point in the post, I feel survivors were affected greater than Killers due to the fact the most notable stacking affects killers use is just haste, whereas survivors focus gen speed, heal speed, haste also. Anyone focusing only one of these has a glaring flaw that being if they can't utilise it their perks are redundant, but that's the nature of crafting a build entirely around a sole purpose. It can be fun & can absolutely backfire.
What diminishing returns has done is made it painfully obvious 2 perks can stack but then the last two slots may as well be meta based perks because the rest of the stacks are near useless & likely by that point are so low percentages already that diminishing returns makes them redundant anyway. It makes for very boring samey builds, again more so on survivor side than killer. But the point stands though that even a killer focusing one stacking effect likely won't have anything to combat something else & if exploited could lose a game horribly. But why do that when those builds suck even more now. Just run the same meta all killers run & have at it.
Again I wouldn't hate a tweak to the diminishing returns system but it also feels like it'd just be easier to revert it. What should be a healthy idea for the game just hasn't been helped by the fact it has been done kind of poorly & has affected an entirely different issue making that worse instead, that being the fact niche perks are now even worse than before.
4 -
While that's true, it also risks making the system feel even more arbitrary, and it's already on thin ice.
1 -
I hate Diminishing Returns. Like many others are saying here, it basically killed all the fun builds I liked to run but does nothing to hurt meta builds. So I just run meta now instead.
Also some perks work together but function differently and thus don't hurt each other with diminishing returns. So these combos are more powerful which makes them just better than the rest.
Diminishing Returns just constraints and limits gameplay builds. It also makes me feel like the game is pressuring me into running specific builds instead of just letting me run what I want. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth as a result. By forcing less build variety, playing the game becomes more boring and stale faster as well.
Knowing we'll likely have to wait years for BHVR to remove Diminishing Returns or finally buff all the perks it made absolute garbage with the update is just frustrating.
6 -
What you see here is just a typical reaction when you take something away from a child.
Diminishing Returns purpose was to remove extreme edge cases from occuring. Healing was the first complaint after you post, but is the very reason the system should exist. Stacking perks so a survivor can heal as fast as the original Self Care / We'll Make It combo is not healthy. This system will prevent such combos from appearing in the future as the every increasing pool of perks continues.
0 -
That's a completely unfair conclusion.
Comparing niche altruistic healing builds to old self care + we'll make it makes absolutely no sense. The strongest healing perks in the game were unchanged by the system and survivors can already be healed super fast with either resurgence or medkits + botany.
How is someone wanting to run something like desperate measures + botany to heal their teammates quickly the same as what you said, please elaborate
5 -
No Mither is one of my favorite perks but I tend not to run it much anymore. The overall trajectory of the game has been the biggest culprit on that front, but now the threat of not being able to have wiggle room with it because of a balancing system working against me (when the perk balances itself) doesn't exactly encourage me to jump back on it. And that sucks.
1 -
funny thing is hyperfocus stakeout isn't affected fir gen progression it didn't affect it much if at all but gen regression was affected on top of the 8 kick limit still being a thing
5 -
they tried around the kaneki patch i think where they were trying to kneecap haste and hinder stacking
2 -
Folk need to stop obsessing about balance.I’d rather go against a killer with a haste build than losing 20% of my gen with pain res and then getting kicked off it for 35 seconds with dms
-4 -
Folk need to stop obsessing about balance.
No, i don't think i will.
0 -
As I understand it, Stake Out/Hyperfocus/Instrument builds have also been affected by Diminishing Returns, in fact they are hit twice - with both reduced Skill Check Chance and reduced Skill Check Bonus progression compounding:
Part 1: Skill Check Chance
- Toolbox (40% Skill Check chance)
- Hyperfocus (4%-24% extra Skill Check chance)
- One-Two-Three-Four (20% extra Skill Check chance)
Before: Maximum theoretical Skill Check chance: 84%
After: With Diminishing Returns: 40% + 12% + 5% = 57%Part 2: Skill Check Bonus Progression
Additionally the bonus progression is reduced - assuming Stake Out is also in the build:
Depending on the number of Hyperfocus tokens, either the Stake Out bonus progression is halved, or the Hyperfocus bonus progression is halved. So a ~4% bonus progression becomes ~3%, and a theoretical maximum bonus progression at 6 Hyperfocus stacks goes from ~7% to ~5.5%.
Result: Fewer Skill Checks x Reduced Bonus Progression
- Getting Skill Checks and building Hyperfocus stacks can take longer (not always, as it is RNG).
- The reduced Bonus Progression on those skill checks provide less benefit than before.
Very Rough Example
- Before: 8 Skill Checks x 4% Bonus Progression = 32% extra progress
- After: 5 Skill Checks x 3% Bonus Progression = 15% extra progress
The full/accurate calculations are more complex but this does show how Diminishing Returns definitely does impact this type of build. It is noticeable in-game, but I think it just softens these builds instead of nerfing them. In this case it does open up the possibilities for new Toolbox add-ons to increase Skill Check Chance, like their medkit counterparts.
-1 -
They need to update a ton of perks. There is no reason stuff like Batteries sits at 5%.
Another thing that rubs me wrong about diminishing returns is, before the update people tried to play into the strengths of certain killers. Myers with vault perks was a classic. Now it feels bad to run those perks, because you "loose" value simply due to the killer you are running the perk on.
Also, i want detailed information about the way diminishing returns interacts with all of the stats it influences. Not just the displayed stats like haste.
7 -
To be honest… I don't think a lot of players even know DR exists. I know there's a tool tip on the loadout page, but beyond that you have no way to tell if any perks you're running have the potential to be diminished by other sources, whether it's from other perks, or a killer's power interaction, items, etc.
It needs to be made clear when you have a perk equipped not only if it might be diminished, but also what about the perk's the stat(s), will be diminished and why. Same for if some aspect of a killer's power would diminish or be diminished by a perk.
I literally saw a Legion running Dying Light, Thanatophobia, and Scourge Hook: Gift of Pain at the same time. Poor guy probably had no idea he was walking into a Diminishing Returns minefield…
6 -
Stakeout and Hyperfocus are two perks that weren't affected but Deja Vu, Overzealous, Resilience, Prove Thyself, Full Circuit, Quick Gambit, and whatever other gen perks are percentage-based all were. Meanwhile, Pain Res, Pop, TBTC, Surge, Eruption—all popular perks—were unaffected.
Gen speed boosters were affected much more than regress.
2 -
Content creators didn't kick up a big enough stink to get it reverted unfortunately
1
