Jason's Omnipresent Evil should not have infinite duration
Omnipresent Evil is a very strong power on its own, but the infinite duration can ruin the game under two separate conditions.
Endgame issue:
If there is only one survivor remaining, it is impossible for them to escape unless theyre able to grab hatch before the killer does. Against all other killers, there is at least a chance that a solo survivor can manage to escape in this scenario, if they are lucky, by powering up the exit gates. The odds are never great since exit gates may spawn close to each other and be easy for the killer to observe, and even if the gates are far it can be challenging for a survivor to fully power one before the killer goes to check on their gate.
But against Jason, it is impossible for a survivor to "wait out" the killer to try and sneakily power up an exit gate to escape. Because Omnipresent Evil doesnt have a duration timer, while simultaneously providing increased movement speed and information on which gate the survivor is powering up, Jason will always be able to interrupt the survivor before they can fully power a gate. The survivor cannot wait out the power to even stand a chance of getting the gate open in time.
To me, this feels game-breaking in a sense. I dont know of any other killer with a 100% guaranteed win condition against a fairly common occurrence (being the last survivor alive with a closed hatch). In this case, the survivor might as well just abandon the game since there is no point in actually trying to open the gates.
Early/Mid-game issues:
Survivors are learning that Omnipresent Evil has a counter by crouch walking, so when Jason inevitably enters his power in the early game the survivors often attempt to hide by crouching. But since there is no duration, Jason can infinitely sit in this power and stall the game unless a survivor is willing to stand up and give him a guaranteed chase. Not only does this seriously slow the game down if survivors counter by crouching, but it also gives him a guaranteed chase if they choose not to counter.
Im not aware of any other killer who is given this amount of control over the match.
Blight, Ghoul, and Nurse both have a limited number of rushes/lunges/teleports.
The First has a limited duration on his ability.
Legion has a duration limit on their power.
Billy's chainsaw has a limited duration.
The list goes on.
Even similar killers like Wraith, who do get a movement boost with unlimited duration, don't have the information aspect that Omnipresent Evil provides, and so end-game scenarios are at least winnable for a solo survivor and wraith cannot stall the early/mid-game forever like Omnipresent Evil often does. The wraith ultimately has to go around hunting for survivors, instead of instantly knowing where they are.
One key tweak to prevent Jason from ruining the mentioned game scenarios is simply giving his power a duration, such as 30-45 seconds. And potentially giving him some addons to extend that duration slightly (although not long enough to completely wait out the end-game timer when hatch is closed)
Comments
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The duration isn't really an issue. There are plenty of killers that can 'camp' or disable gate access in the way you are describing. Arguably it's easier to do with Hag and Trapper, but Huntress can proxy it, Springtrap can pop doors, Artist can Raven shot it, Wraith can do very similar to Jason permanently, Doctor can shock spam, Plague can vomit on the door handle, demo can tele, Xeno can tunnel, and so on.
Killer abilities being effective in a 1v1 scenario with the door is not even remotely uncommon. If you hit 1v1 the standard is pretty much hatch or assume death.
As to the rest of it, I think you're being more than a little disingenuous. Wraith does have movement speed and unlimited duration but Jason doesn't get 'more information' as you insinuate, he gets less. He sees less when in Omnipresent Evil. Omnipresent Evil does not instantly tell Jason where survivors are as you also insinuate.
Jason can infinitely sit in his power, which means he can infinitely not be stopping survs from being on gens. How is that a game-breaking balance choice?-2 -
@NeverSolus
> Arguably it's easier to do with Hag and Trapper,
Hag and trapper can both have their traps disarmed and have low mobility to get across the map if they guess the wrong gate. Survivors cannot disarm jasons power, and he can easily reach the gates 100% of the time.
> but Huntress can proxy it
Sort of. Huntress can attempt to snipe, but a survivor can dodge. Plus gates might not be in view for huntress, depending on the spawn. Ive had many escapes against huntress as the last survivor with closed hatch, as Im sure most experienced players have.
> Springtrap can pop doors
Doors are random and not guaranteed to be near gates. I do agree that Springtrap is very difficult to escape against, but I wouldnt say its 100% guaranteed like Omnipresent evil is.
> Artist can Raven shot it
Artist is actually a great example of a killer where the escape condition is very fair. Survivors can dodge the ravens or wait them out, and artist can obviously miss. The only way Jason isnt getting you on a gate as the last survivor is if he is AFK
> Wraith can do very similar to Jason permanently
I dont know what you mean here? Wraith still has to manually traverse to the gates, which a survivor can escape against if theyre smart and lucky.
> Doctor can shock spam
How is this relevant? Doctor's shock blast has a limited range with a very long cooldown. Not sure what youre getting at here?
> Plague can vomit on the door handle
This does not at all prevent survivors from escaping, and the plague would still have to visit both gates. This is, again, a very escapable scenario.
> demo can tele
I dont believe Demogorgon can tell which gate youre on, plus the survivor can clear the portal
> Xeno can tunnel
There is no guarantee the tunnels are near the gates, and xeno doesnt know which gate youre opening like Jason does> If you hit 1v1 the standard is pretty much hatch or assume death.
My point about endgame jason is that unlike every other killer that you mentioned above, survivors cannot stand a chance. Against every other killer, the survivor at least has a low chance of escaping.> Jason doesn't get 'more information' as you insinuate, he gets less. He sees
lesswhen in Omnipresent Evil.
I dont understand this — have you played Jason or watched gameplay? Simply reading the Omnipresent Evil description will explain how it provides info that prevent end-game escapes-6 -
Man, it's gonna be one of these. Please bare in mind I'm not trying to come off as aggressive but it's a bit hard to stop myself given some of the sass you delivered at the end there.
> Arguably it's easier to do with Hag and Trapper,
Hag and trapper can both have their traps disarmed and have low mobility to get across the map if they guess the wrong gate. Survivors cannot disarm jasons power, and he can easily reach the gates 100% of the time.
Yes, but they also give away position when they do. Once the killer knows where you are in 1:1 door-off, that's all she wrote.
> but Huntress can proxy it
Sort of. Huntress can attempt to snipe, but a survivor can dodge. Plus gates might not be in view for huntress, depending on the spawn. Ive had many escapes against huntress as the last survivor with closed hatch, as Im sure most experienced players have.
This does not address your statement. Huntress can down you at the door, just as Jason can. There is no 100% escape failure because Jason exists, Jason too can botch the play. It's not suddenly less or more valid because a killer can botch or miss. Both can botch.
> Springtrap can pop doors
Doors are random and not guaranteed to be near gates. I do agree that Springtrap is very difficult to escape against, but I wouldnt say its 100% guaranteed like Omnipresent evil is.
Again, I don't think OE is 100%. You've made that claim but not presented evidence to the effect. Jason can botch like anyone else can.
> Artist can Raven shot it
Artist is actually a great example of a killer where the escape condition is very fair. Survivors can dodge the ravens or wait them out, and artist can obviously miss. The only way Jason isnt getting you on a gate as the last survivor is if he is AFK
Jason can miss. Jason can botch it. Jason also has to exit OE at a vault or pallet point, meaning you can deliberately pick a gate that has none nearby. You are not suddenly crippled from agency in the end-game, you can still make advantageous choices to maximize your success and he can still fail. It's not as though you touch the gate door and he instantly gibs you.
> Wraith can do very similar to Jason permanently
I dont know what you mean here? Wraith still has to manually traverse to the gates, which a survivor can escape against if theyre smart and lucky.
Am I misunderstanding? Jason also has to traverse. Both have haste. Both have infinite duration on their haste/stealth ability to get to and from the gates. That's the point I'm expressing.
> Doctor can shock spam
How is this relevant? Doctor's shock blast has a limited range with a very long cooldown. Not sure what youre getting at here?
My point is that the broad AOE shock can give you away, and once Doctor locates you at gate (because the AOE shock told him which one you were at) he can shock spam you to prevent you from opening it at all. It's a more assured death than Jason.
> Plague can vomit on the door handle
This does not at all prevent survivors from escaping, and the plague would still have to visit both gates. This is, again, a very escapable scenario.
Plague vomiting on one gate handle and camping the other means she can watch the HUD. The moment the survivor is infected, she knows where they are. Once the killer knows where the surv is in 1:1 end game, that's normally the end.
> Xeno can tunnel
There is no guarantee the tunnels are near the gates, and xeno doesnt know which gate youre opening like Jason does
Jason doesn't instantly know, you know that right? He has to run to the gate like anyone else. Xeno can tunnel speed it, which is why I brought Xeno up. Both are ultimately just running gate to gate looking for evidence of the surv. Xeno knows which gate you are at the exact same way Jason does - by seeing you at it.> If you hit 1v1 the standard is pretty much hatch or assume death.
My point about endgame jason is that unlike every other killer that you mentioned above, survivorscannotstand a chance. Against every other killer, the survivor at least has alowchance of escaping.
That's a falsehood. He can botch. Survs can key the hatch. Survs may have gate speed perks. There are a dozen ways survs can handle this. You keep saying it's a 100% doomed scenario with Jason but I see absolutely no reason to collude with that assertation.> Jason doesn't get 'more information' as you insinuate, he gets less. He sees
lesswhen in Omnipresent Evil.
I dont understand this — have you played Jason or watched gameplay? Simply reading the Omnipresent Evil description will explain how it provides info.
I have played 21 games as Jason to date. Thank you for pointing out I can read the description, I appreciate your assistance. I recognize how it provides info. Please share with me why you think Jason gets more information in OE, than any other killer gets while not in OE.2 -
more than that he’s a tunneling menace and the constant speed and haste he gets is too much
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Please bare in mind I'm not trying to come off as aggressive but it's a bit hard to stop myself given some of the sass you delivered at the end there.
Let's assume good intent when reading these messages :) None of my prior message was meant to be sassy, but its always possible to read something online and interpret it in an unfavorable way.
I do want to spell out why I think the end-game scenario in my OP isn't possible against Jason since it seems like we're talking past each other. Looking back at my OP, the primary concern i have with unlimited duration is this endgame scenario (although the other early/mid-game scenario also justifies a limited duration on his power IMO).
- The info provided by Omnipresent Evil allows Jason to detect a stationary survivor, such as a survivor opening a gate. So he should always be able to tell which gate is being opened
- Because Omnipresent Evil provides a significant mobility boost, Jason can rapidly get to whichever gate he sees you stationary at.
Based on the above two points, I dont really see how a solo survivor can escape if hatch is closed outside of the rare chance a survivor brings a key.
The typical "hail mary" survivor escape against every other killer if hatch is closed is for the survivor to go to one of the gates and either immediately open it and pray or hide near the gate and wait for the killer to check it then leave (mind-gaming the killer into thinking you're at the other gate) and then begin opening the gate they leave. This last-ditch effort isn't really feasible against Jason as far as Im aware, since he should always be able to interrupt and kill you.
You mentioned Jason potentially botching this scenario, so maybe you can help me understand how Jason can possibly lose this common end-game scenario? I will absolutely grant that key can be a counter, but even with a gate opening perk it seems like Jason should still be able to interrupt them pretty much 100% of the time?
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I would argue that the information doesn't mean Jason always knows which gate a person is on: he still has to go to the gate, like any other killer, and see the survivor (in this case the red smoke.) The way it was phrased above made it sound as if he got some map wide indication. That being said however :
Sure. Botching is easy. He goes to throw a spear, winds up, you dodge the spear which is easy to do, hop back on the gate and open it. He cannot appear on top of you from OE, he has to appear from a vault/pallet point. Many maps have gates that are nowhere near vault/pallet points, and if you know you are facing Jason then you should also know to be picking one of those gates. Now he has to exit OE animation, about three seconds. You could cheekily have opened it to the E, avoiding lights, dodge to the side and wait according to your prediction, then hop back on and charge it up.
Optionally you could be running Dead-hard.
It takes 20 seconds to open a gate, standard. Assuming you opened to the E (7 seconds IIRC?) that means you need to buy 13 seconds on the door. Less, considering he's going to find you as you are working on the door and probably bought yourself another 4 to 5 seconds progress on it. Let's say you got 3 seconds progress, he found you fast - you need 10 seconds.
Pick a decent non vault/pallet gate, but we'll go with a rougher example of Gideon's. He has 3 seconds~ roughly to run to you, with a 1 second OE animation exit. You need to buy 6 seconds. Make sure to hop off the gate opening while he swings to hit you to avoid being yoinked. One injury state. 1 Second lost to attack, He enters 2 second swing cooldown. Now if you have dead hard, this is over, you win. If you don't you are going to need to 360 him to get the last pull on the door.
This scenario is assuming he finds you relatively quickly, of course, but he can find you faster or slower as the situation differs. The point I would express is that he can fail even in optimal conditions. If he misses one of these attacks to a 360, or misses a spear chuck he timed too early, or OE's to the wrong place, you are basically free. These are all botch conditions.
I'm not saying it's likely, but it's decently plausible to get away with considering most people write a 1:1 gate scenario off as a loss.
If it's really so much of a problem in the current Jason meta, just run with keys constantly and you have assured yourself escapes, no?0 -
Botching is easy.
What youve described doesnt sound easy at all, but I realize thats subjective. Id be fascinated to see anyone actually pull off that solo escape with hatch closed against Jason since it seems so unlikely to me. Still, I would agree with you that it is technically not 100% impossible to escape the scenario, although we might differ on how doable it is. I cannot imagine anyone other than a new Jason fumbling this, nor anyone other than a very highly experienced survivor running deadhard pulling it off.
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Do you, or anyone else, know the range which Jason can see a survivor with OE? I cant see it documented on Jason's power or anywhere else that Ive looked. It's not map-wide, but from what Ive seen its still pretty noticeable from a decent distance.
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If it's really so much of a problem in the current Jason meta, just run with keys constantly and you have assured yourself escapes, no?
My feedback in the OP isnt to say this is some huge problem that completely changes the meta, just that OE having no duration does not feel balanced to me in the end-game scenario (or in general). I think Nurse is still more unbalanced than Jason is, but its difficult for me to see why OE shouldn't have a duration considering he would already be very strong even with a duration IMO.
Do you feel that a 30-60s OE duration significantly nerfs/unbalances Jason? Right now I feel like hes roughly an "A+" tier killer, and adding the duration would move him more towards an A-/B+ . The power would still be very strong in chase, but it wouldnt spell an almost certain death in the end-game scenario I mentioned or annoyingly slow down the early/mid-game
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just wanted to add that you will ALWAYS be able to interrupt a gate with wraith. i think his cloaked speed and OE are the same or very close in speed.
if you trap one or both gates as trapper you will almost alwasy be guarenteed a gate interrupt.
hillbilly if not on an indoor map will always be able to interrupt a gate assuming hes not running into walls.
blight will always be able to gate interrupt.
twins with a short set up will always interrupt gates
nurse will always be able to gate interrupt.
this isnt unique to dbd.
if its a 1v1 you have already lost 99% of the time. the game allows you to abandon at end game when hatch is closed because except for very rare situations and lucky gate spawns you will be interrupted by the killer.
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I agree
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The issue isn't that only Jason can do some things. The issue is that he can do too much. He has combination of other killer's powers. He has both Huntress and Onryo presence. Even Spirit. They have added everything on him. And he is easy to play, not like Nurse or Ghoul, or maybe Blight (flicking is hard :) ) Staying in the mist indefinitely, doesn't mean survivors can pop gens, or unhook. He can almost run the entire map in 10 seconds.
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yes he’s so good at tunneling because he gets enough haste to uh make him a 4.6 killer.
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i think the cooldown between uses needs to be increased a bit.
in the games ive had it becomes stalled out fairly consistently because he can get to each gen real fast and get pressure so easy that even smart rotations and such makes it really hard to progress the game in any direction. I think there shouldnt be as much time as available currently in OE mode. thats my only critique of jason thus far
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what’s the point in playing now, this killer has made the game trash
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I agree and I think the cooldown is too short as well. Omnipresent Evil as a whole feels like it's active a little too often. Overall I like Jason's power but definitely feel this should be toned down a bit + Deputy's Badge needs another rework.
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