Stop hard tunneling.
No I'm not complaining about tunneling in general, i tend to be understanding of the concept. The thing I have an issue with is the worst kind of tunneling. Standard tunneling is whatever, if you find a double hooked surv and a no hook surv on a gen, you have a choice and the double hooked surv is the tactical choice every time. I'm talking about hard repeatedly tunneling the same surv off hook to the exclusion of all others straight off the bat. Heck I'm not even that fussed about tunneling straight off hook if it's done mid-late game.
It's this situation. Killer gets their first hook after a realtively short chase, realises that surv is mid/weak at chase. Killer then proxy camps said hook, maybe they manage to force the surv to stage, then as soon as the surv is unhooked, they hit them off hook and commit to the exclusively chase them again down them quickly rinse repeat. You get one survivor dead at 4-5 gens left. That one survivor has no chance to play the game, and the rest of the team is screwed because the game is not supposed to be a 3v1. We've all had games like that.
There has to be a system where the game can recognise that the killer is focusing out one player to the exclusion of all others. In the specific situation where you have 2 hooks on the same player, 0 hooks on anyone else and they are chasing the 2 hooked player there should be some kind of game intervention. Something that stops this kind of play dead. Peehsps a system where the surv on taking the second hit straight off of hook gets teleported to thebopposite side of the map and insta hesled or just invincibility or invisibility that gets cancelled if the killer hooks another player or if a survivor struggles out (obvs I wouldn't want to see survs abusing a mechanic like this for free bodyblocks) this would give the tunneled surv an opportunity to get out of the killer's sight and have a chance to heal and actually try to counter play by going stealthy so they can still achieve something in the match.
Normally it's fairly rare but I've seen an uptick in this kind of play from killers over the last couple of weeks, probably killers getting tilted by black banquet, and an awful lot of jasons too. I'm sure some people will simply call skill issue over this, but this type of tunneling is immensely easy for killers to do and very difficult for all but the best survivor teams to effectively prevent. By the time you realise how hard killer is committing to this it's usually too late to simply genrush. And it literally tanks the game, one surv gets next to no bp and is dead within minutes of the game starting. And the rest of the team is screwed unless there is a wild skill gap between killer and the 3 remaining survivors and they just so happened to demonise the 1 weak surv in a group.
Comments
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My last 5 games had about 3 of these lol. Event wise the poison makes this 10x easier to do as well, as they hit you right off the hook, put poison on you and then ur lucky to reach a pallet before either being hit with poison again or downed. Even if the team healing goes off ur still injured from the deep wound being healed.
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I'm sure some people will simply call skill issue over this
They shouldn't be saying that because it's also a skill issue if you have to tunnel and camp this intensely to coast your way to an easy win.
But yes there should be something in place to stop the killer from just ruining everyone's match 2 mins in. It'd be nice if they combined the invincibility and invisibility into anti-tunnel. If they make it so the survivor has no collison and also can't be perceived in any way it would be impossible to abuse. Elusive off hook was a good idea that shouldn't have been tossed. They were far too heavy handed in scrapping every bit of the anti-tunnel ptb.
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i keep getting games where survivors hard tunnel by staying on the same gen until it's finished instead of doing a third of the gen and then moving to a different gen
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Gens aren’t playing the game.
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I'm sure that gen really feels bad about that. When that gen queued up I imagine it was looking forward to engaging in some gameplay in a full match instead of being focused out as quickly as possible. Won't somebody think of the gens' gameplay experience?
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So guard gens. I do it all the time as killer, that's the difference between genrushing and hard tunneling. Genrushing has counterplay and I pull it off successfully all the time. Stopping a determined killer from hard tunneling is all but impossible unless the skill game is absolutely insane.
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i am not obligated to intentionally throw the game in the hope it makes my opponent potentially enjoy it more
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Wondered how long before THAT particular response got copy pasted on this thread. 7 replies apparently.
Like I said I'm not totally opposed to all forms of tunneling. I'm not saying you have to throw the game. But there is a difference between tactical tunneling mid game and singling out one player and hard tunneling them out of the game to the exclusion of all else. There should be a basekit mechanic to prevent or punish that type of play. It's a cheap strategy with little to no counterplay.
And at the end of the day, the killers who indulge in easy wins that way make a rod for their own back. They don't improve their skills very well and end up with no idea how to take control of a match without simply removing one player from the equasion. They skyrocket their mmr super high by getting constant 3-4ks until they end up in super high mmr brackets with skilled surv teams who have thousands of hours and can outskill them at every turn. Then the game becomes immensely unfun for them.
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if a survivor makes themselves available as a target for 'hard tunnelling out of the game to the exclusion of all else', then failing to capitalise on that is throwing.
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If the skill level is mostly equal (which means the survivor can make the killer waste some time at least) and the other survivors are on gens everytime the killer is chasing the tunneled survivor, the game will probably end with 1k and 3 escapes.
I have lost count of the times that i saw comp matches where the killer is just trying to hard tunnel the first survivor since min 1 and once the survivor is already dead the exit gates are being opened by the other 3.
"So guard gens" has the same energy as "just dont get caught and the tunneling will go to waste".
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Honestly, If they just removed collision off hook and increased the time of the basekit BT with added nuance like "if you are within the killers red stain and 5m from another survivor you lose it" which doesnt apply at endgame id be fine with it or something like that. Something that doesn't allow you to bodyblock/take a hit even just by staying in the same direction when a lunge wouldve made the hit on the other survivor, stuff like that. I personally don't hate hard tunneling, with DS can usually waste a lot of the killers time in soloqueue and that allows me to loop them for another 40+seconds. But it is frustrating. But I also recognise its the killers objective to kill, so they need to get someone out do it, its your job, and it does make their job easier. So yeah, definitely a skill issue on both ends, killers relying on tunneling + survivors complaining about it are both skill issues.
But honestly the only way to feasibly remove tunneling/slugging/all other unfun playstyles is to casualise the game, make it easier on killer to apply pressure naturally whilst also punishing the unfun but often efficient ways of killing because it makes the game more fun for both sides. My suggestions usually fall into some sort of reward for hooking/killing but then heavily punishing tunneling/slugging (basekit infinite UB/ increased duration of basekit BT and maybe even basekit DS at that point).
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So then change the game around it so that trying to capitalise on that becomes the throwing part.
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if you think the game should be changed then advocate for that, telling people to play the game as it exists badly on purpose to coddle your ego is embarassing
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They pretended to fix it but killers cried their eyes out. Killer fun has always been priority. It's ok the killer plays the game all the time, nobody cares about the survivor.
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That's why the devs are obligated to implement systems that make tunneling less effective. It's also why no one believes killer mains coming here every patch to say "if you dare nerf ________ i'll have to tunnel" when everyone knows they already just do it because its easy.
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And now the skill issue argument? Classic.
Are you deliberately trolling by coming out with the standard entitled killer main phrases? Or do you actually believe that? Because if you do it rather gives me the impression that you only play killer and don't really know what thevgame is like from the survivor pov
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why are you making this thread telling killer players what to do then, if the onus is on the devs to change it?
i'm not sure what's 'skill issue' about it, tbh? i play 60/40 killer, i know what it is like to be on the delivering and recieving end of tunneling, and very often i will win games because a killer tries to hard tunnel me and i juice them long enough for my teammates to do gens.
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Because when they last attempted to change it the oceans of killer tears made them abandon it in 2 days. So the same entitled killers saying "the onus is on the devs to change it" are also doing everything they possibly can to prevent the devs from changing it. Which comes across as rather disingenuous wouldn't you say?
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Yeah I'm not really considering comp match level games. I'm looking at the vast majority of matches wih players who aren't both 4 stacked and top bracket mmr. Game doesn't need balancing around streamers and players with 10k plus hours.
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true king
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You can leave that part out and my point still prevails. If the game skill level is equal between the survivors and the killer, hard tunneling one since the beginning will probably end in the killer having 1k. Idk if i can count that as a "win".
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I don't run Gen slow down. With the poison, I'm having like 15-30 second chases and gens are flying. Combined with the invisibility, I'm happy to tunnel. Bring in a flashlight and I'm almost 100 percent going into the match to tunnel.
Killers should be able to tunnel. Especially in this event.
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you cant seriously believe that or are you just trolling?
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People who play both sides like myself care about both killer and survivor experience. Balance changes like anti-tunnel need to prioritize feedback from people who play both sides, not survivor-only or killer-only players who constantly demand nerfs for the side they don’t play without regard for the experience of people who play that other role.
Post edited by Your_Dad_Playing_DbD on-4 -
Not really. If one survivor can run run 5 gens in 3 chases (2 of which would be chases started already injured) then that surv would be vastly outskilling killer.
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I mean it was the argument you made,, saying that getting tunneled was a skill issue. I'm pointing out that you're trotting out the same arguments that all killer tribals do when anyone so much as hints that the killer role needs any kind of nerf
Post edited by HoodedWildKard on6 -
Given how ''fair'' current event is to killers, survivor main players should not complain that many killers right now prefer to tunnel people out asap.
As for the general talk - we still have 5 gens vs 12 hooks, not 12 gens vs 12 hooks. Survivor players should take pride and L that they forced killer to tunnel them out asap because apparently there was no other option left for them.
PS. Killer players also want to have fun and win a game. Please don't forget about that.
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You wouldn't even need the basekit BT anymore. 15s of invisibility and invulnerability could replace it and off-hook body blocking would become a thing of the past.
The game is only uncasual because some people have decided it is. There's no ranked mode or visible MMR or anything to make this game serious except people choosing so. Even your stats aren't visible directly through the game. This is just an easy game to feed your ego, because MMR brackets are so broad and matchmaking is so loose, and many people aren't taking the game as seriously so wins are often easy against them. Everyone has seen people who just give up when they get early tunneled, and then the killer gets the easy win they so desperately want handed to them.
I think the game would be in a better place if success was measured through hooks and not kills. "The entity hungers" seems to bother a lot of people. I was recently saying something like a blood meter that fills up instead of sacrifices as the goal, and you get more blood through unique hooks, but double hooking wouldn't increase it at all. If they changed the wincon they wouldn't have to change the game so much.
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Believe me I don't think the killer role shouldn't have fun. I play an awful lot of killer. And the event can be played around with killer, I've been playing a bunch of killer during the event and been performing very well without resorting to tunneling or hook camping. I've had a couple of rough games but for the most part I've managed to take control of my matches.
Heck I had a black banquet nemesis game against a ttv and a fairly co ordinated squad earlier and had them all double hooked before they could even finish a gen (tbf i kept triggering pop on 2 gens with 4 pistons going), no tunneling, no hook camping.
I also recognise that bad games as killer are astoundingly unfun. As a rule when I call for balance changes to killer I don't want to see the role gutted. It should be the power role with the 60% kill rate.
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Is not that hard if the skill level is equal. If survivors bodyblock (like it usually happens on my matches when playing killer, even if i do not want to tunnel), if they wait until the last moment to unhook (the hooked duration even got increased) and if the survivors that are not helping are smashing on gens, is doable. Not counting that you can just pre-drop every pallet you find and unless you are Nurse you are already making the killer waste a lot of time.
And also ignoring the fact that DS is extremely meta, and is also even being paired with Unbreakable or Plot Twist, so you either make the killer waste your DS and get even more extra seconds or ignore you and you get recovered to full, making you virtually untouchable.
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Unfortunately the concept of 60% kill rate is not well respected here. Skull Merchant and Krasue situation should be a very well demonstrated case where killers were ''changed'' to calm the wave of dissatisfied survivor mains which resulted into those killers being either unplayable in terms of viability or un-enjoyable in terms of fun. These could had been avoided if those people who cry the loudest start playing both roles and see how things are from both sides but they prefer to keep causing commotion and throw more tantrums and since they are the majority due to how this game is designed, they end up influencing developers more which so far had mostly negative results, for both sides.
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I don’t think it’s trolling. There are people who genuinely believe that the side they don’t play is overpowered no matter what - you see it on both killer and survivor side on this forum. People are free to not play killer/survivor if they don’t want to, but if you don’t play both sides then you are going to have a very biased view about game balance.
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People only try to use this "if you dont play both sides youre biased" as a strawman argument if they have absolute no legal argument to go with.
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Not to mention even if you play both you're still likely to have a bias.
Example:
Killer mains that play both but when they play survivor they don't play to win and fool around and die quick.
Same people come to the forums and say they play both and don't see why anyone would complain about the state of survivor.4 -
If you are not biased it's very clear they prioritize killer fun. In any other game, literally tunneling someone out of the game at 5 gens preventing them from participating would be considered grieving and game bannable.
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I agree with almost all of this post:
"If they changed the wincon they wouldn't have to change the game so much"- people will still tunnel if you make it so they get more from unique hooks because someone will always be easier to chase/ the weak link, and tunneling off the hook means that weak link is down a healthstate. Even with invisibility we've seen in the event killers who have headphones can trace survivors and so It would need to be no noise/ no collision with environment so no feasible way to trace them which would take way more coding. But yeah absolutely.
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In what other game is tunneling bannable?
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How is this a “strawman”? A strawman is when you misrepresent another person’s position to make it easier to attack. I didn’t refer to anyone else’s position - I stated my own position that players who play both sides have a more unbiased view of balance than players who only play killer or only play survivor. I’ll stand by that all day long. If you want to try to convince people that one-sided players are more unbiased about balance than people who play both sides, then go ahead and present your argument.
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I don't think it's entirely true that they prioritize killer fun. If that was the case, there's a LOT of low hanging fruit that they could be doing. They have the same very simplistic approach that "winning = fun", which is unfortunately shared with a lot of the playerbase, especially killer CCs. If a killer isn't overwhelmingly strong, then they're not worth playing. And lately, they can't just be strong, they have to be strong immediately. Right out of the gate. With little or no learning curve. If you can't pick them up and immediately win, they're not worth playing, and ergo, not fun.
This leads to little focus on aesthetics, how they feel to play, and especially how they feel to play against, which are all problems. If you're playing a killer because you like their power, how they play, or just because you're a fan of their franchise, but they're not high tier, the dialogue from other killer players is that your favorite is not worth playing, you should expect to lose, and feel bad. It's far worse than maining low tiers in stuff like MOBAs or hero shooters, even though you can expect to get flamed by teammates. And certainly no comraderie like the unhinged fighting game Potemkin or Zangief stans. There's no support network at all, just a community telling you to be madder and madder, and more abusive to other people in retaliation. This is exacerbated by BHVR's godawful (lack of) updates and leaving massive bugs that cripple killers for years, making them frustrating and worse to play.
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I agree that some (maybe most?) players who play both sides are at least partially biased in favor of one side or the other. But I don’t think it can be argued that if you only play one side that somehow you can be more unbiased about balance than players who play at least some of both sides. If you have never played one side, how can you possibly understand how balance changes negatively impact the experience of players who play that side?
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No but gens done in time are deciding game and mainly decide killers decisions, like if someone playing normaly looses 3 gens in first few chases he may start play more "dirty" then if he didnt.
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But that's not what OP is talking about.
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"Just add one more basekit anti-hooking perk bro" (it would make a total of 5 now excluding basekit bt)
"Just add one more lane bro"
Seriosly, its easy win only if survivors allowed it to be via not doing gens and tunneled survivor fall in 15 seconds of chase, also how its ruining game performance if tunneled survivor still engage in chase with all unhook protection? its surely making match quicker for everyone but it doesnt cut skill expression out of it
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I don't think there's really any solution for this problem other than continuing to disincentivize killer players with less bloodpoints or rankup pips for hanging around hook or camping survivors to second-stage. A lot of killers lose their games for trying to play this way because they end up picking on a survivor who is better than them, and learn quickly to try and hook everyone at least once to assess who the 'weak link' is on the team. At least then its far enough into the match that tunneling is a strategic decision rather than an active commitment to not allow someone to play the game.
Every anti-tunnel measure they could possibly add, as proven by the couple of PTBs they did specifically around these issues, has proven to be incredibly abusable by survivors who know what they're doing. There are ways now to kind of force a killer to chase a survivor with decisive strike and dead hard, waste enough of the killer's time that even if they realize what's happening and give up chase they still end up losing.
As an example, you add a system like they have now for survivor where if you purposefully get killed by the killer, you lose a rank grade, but for the killer tunneling someone out too fast. Then you'd have bad survivors that basically give up getting killers punished with their grades lowered. Recently I've been given one or two warnings that I'd lose my survivor grade for "giving up" when hard tunneling Ghoul players repeatedly suck all the blood out of me right off of hook and downed me 5 seconds later with no pallets or windows nearby.
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I'm saying if the wincon was changed and you didn't win from just getting 4 kills, like if tunneling or 4man slugging actually made you lose becuase you didn't meet the unique hook requirement, but unique hooks made you win even without four kills. The game should reward hooks, which are the real skill. 8 hooks from chases with no kills is more impressive than 4 kills with 4 hooks because you slugged everyone, yet the game doesn't reward that. It would also mean survivor wicon could become a team win instead of just counting personal escapes, which would allow for a more team-minded game.
I'm also saying the invisibilty would make you 100% unfindable. Like yeah no tinkly noise, no footsteps, no sound at all. This one was designed to be fairly easy to counter. The anti-tunnel version should be absolute.
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5 basekit anti-hooking perks besides BT? What?
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Today theres too many good perks that already shape the outmatch of the game especialy as antitunnel.
Claiming that they arent strong while they sit still top in meta and are amlost in every game even when killer doesnt tunnel they can still be forced on him and claiming it sint a case is nonsece.
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no its part of the game and gives an advantage to the killer the same way slitting up and doing 3 gens at once is better for survivors the goal is to kill and giving your self more time by killing a person is a stratagy only bad survivors dont understand its needed for the killer to stay relivent in alot of matches
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increased hook timer, anti camp, stopping some powers, no more grab off unhooking. i only count 4 with base kit bt being 5.
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Ahh fair ok, would be chill with all of these suggestions, seems we're on a similar page i just misunderstood you
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