https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/472588/future-of-dead-by-daylight-forums
Developer Update | 10.2.0 PTB to Live Changes
With the release of 10.2.0 just around the corner, we wanted to take some time to talk to you about a handful of the many changes that will be happening from PTB to the Live release - and a few changes that won’t. We want to thank everyone who took the time during the PTB to share their thoughts, as we always take your feedback very seriously when it comes time to make these changes.
A look at some changes
Shoulder the Burden
- Removed the deactivation condition for other Survivors.
Dev note: We understand your concerns around the impact of the condition of this perk deactivating after one use for all Survivors for solo players who cannot communicate. Therefore, we have removed this limitation.
This is Not Happening
- Removed the Great basic Skill Check zone increase.
Dev note: We noticed the concerns about This is Not Happening when combined with Hyperfocus, and as a result have decided to remove the great basic skill check zone.
Dark Arrogance
- Basic-attack cooldown no longer affects successful hits.
Dev note: We saw your feedback that Killers were recovering from attacks – including successful hits – too quickly on the PTB, which ended up making chases feel too short. One of the key culprits of that was Dark Arrogance. The cooldown on the PTB was ultimately doing too much by including successful hits, so it now only affects missed and obstructed attacks.
A look at what's remaining the same
Windows of Opportunity – will remain the same as PTB
Dev note: While we understand that there were many concerns about this change impacting newer players, we do believe that Windows was doing too much and overshadowing other perks, so we will be keeping these changes. We hope that making other Survivor perks more useful will make up for this, even with different activation conditions – such as Dark Sense.
Borrowed Time – will remain the same as it currently is on Live
Dev note: We’ve reverted Borrowed Time back to its Live iteration. While we liked what we explored, we didn’t like that we were removing a useful anti-tunnel option, so old Borrowed Time is back.
While we have many more changes coming for the release, we wanted to take this time to address the loudest concerns ahead of time. Keep an eye out tomorrow for the full set of Patch Notes.
Until next time…
The Dead by Daylight Team
Comments
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thank you for changing Shoulders new deactivation condition as well as not changing Borrowed Time. These 2 perks were easily the worst part of the perk changes so this is exciting
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Going back on one time use Shoulder and removing the only part of Dark Arrogance that was even worth considering using the perk for sure is something, guys. Glad you reverted BT though.
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This is not happening is a problem, but hyperfocus and stake out is not?
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While I'm glad Dark Arrogance was changed as the ptb version was very overtuned, if it only affects missed/obstructed hits now and still has the increased penalty effect from ptb that's straight up just a nerf from the live version of the perk. The successful hit recovery would've been fine if it was a much smaller number (ie. 10%).
This is Not Happening only affecting good skill checks is also just worse than the current live version as well even with it working while healthy now, I understand the concern about combining it with Hyperfocus but it really needs an additional effect or something if it's not going to increase great zones anymore.
BT revert is good.
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I mean, the reason for This is not Happening is clearly that you dont want it to be paired with Hyperfocus. But why change Stake Out and nerf This is not Happening (really, the Perk is worse than before, nobody cares about a Good Skill Check Zone being bigger), instead of changing Hyperfocus?
I dont mind Hyperfocus personally, I think it is in the same ballpark as Shoulder the Burden - Potentially very strong, but 99% of people are not at the Level that they face Survivor Teams which can make full use out of it.
But why nerf Perks to not work with Hyperfocus instead of just changing Hyperfocus?
That you leave a lot of awful changes on the PTB removing Meta Perks from Survivor and adding new Toys for Killer obviously did not change… What a surprise.
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Dark Arrogance is going to be worse than before the buff, since the increased stun modifiers are staying for an effect that isn't really worth all that much.
I was going to suggest something exactly like this for This is Not Happening. Having a condition for Hyperfocus that locks Great Skill Check zones to their normal size would allow both perks to coexist without issue.
I hope the Borrowed Time rework makes its way into a different perk, that seemed pretty interesting.
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Stake Out already got changed on the ptb and is going live where Stake Out now creates a special skill check that doesn't synergize with any skill check perk.
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I know, but let's be real. Stake out is now gonna be a new gen rush meta. The skill checks are not that hard to hit. I'm just mad that we're nerfing an already weak perk, because of problematic design with hyperfocus. Like why not just rework hyperfocus already?
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Glad StB wasn't changed. Surprised the devs committed to the WoO nerf despite massive outcry. I'd like to know about everything else too.
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It would certainly make more sense to change Hyperfocus if every great skill check buffing perk is going to get nerfed because of syngery with Hyperfocus. But I don't think Stake Out by itself will be meta. It's token limited which you gain from being in the killer's TR. It's going to be map and killer dependent which are factors survivors have little control over. Losing the ability to work with other perks will basically mean it will be passed over most of the time.
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So shoulder the burden stays the most broken perk and dark arrogance is getting gutted, classic
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I know it's dependent from TR, but 4% of additional progress is still better than what we're gonna have. I mean let's be honest. There is really no option to pick anything for gen rush except new stake out. Hyperfocus is gonna be now less used, because this is not happening nerf which is okay fine. But as you said I don't like how they're nerfing an already weak perk at the cost of problematic one.
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Old Stake Out even when used on its own was still pretty comparable in strength to the new one. While each individual token technically could be worth more now than the old version, the new version has the hard 24 meter requirement now (so killers like Wesker don't feed it as much anymore) and the old version also made every great skill check worth 2% instead of 1% regardless of whether you spent a token or not as long as you had at least 1 token (the description wasn't exactly worded that way, but it did), a benefit the new version will no longer have.
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Oh I forgot that it also has an additional requirement. That makes more sense.
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Well its still going from a 40 second exposed to a 2 minute broken, which still seems like a pretty big change.
But yeah, disabling the perk for the entire group never actually made any sense so really glad they changed that.
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this is not happening and dark arrogance being worse than live is hilarious to me. More L’s.
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Really disappointing. I was really hoping for a new builds.
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@ThatRyanB can you explain why you didn't hard-cap the basic-attack cooldown to avoid builds with nearly 60% attack-cooldown. You also hard capped the pick-up speed, so Forever Entwined and Fire Up are not problematic together, why not do the same to keep Dark Arrogance in a good spot?
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I mean you're kind of asking a broader question of why they didn't go with hard caps instead of diminishing returns for most things.
Which is a good question that I'd be interested in knowing the answer to as I think it would have been a lot better way to do it for most of the effects in the game.
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Change to This Is Not Happening is just a joke. Great zone was the main reason of this perk, people with 2+ hrs can hit good skillchecks. With Hyperfocus it maded slightly easier to hit greats but no longer increase bonus progress like steakout did.
Dark arrogance litteraly is worse unrelenting for longer stuns. Wow.
Windows I'm fine about, maps exists and it will help kill rates by people running into deadzones in solo so… be it.
With these I'm truly scared what they cooked, because it this point I'm truly worried that stale meta of many years is going to continue. And for survivor Road Life and This Is not happening was obvious new combo, but well. I gues we stick to lithe, finesse, deja vu and ds :) Why making survivors feel fresh when already a lot of people are abandonin that role.
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Because Hyperfocus is skill based perk that will now be accessible only to very good players. Sadly, from my experiments skill checks are massively affected by servers and not always responding well. This Is Not Happening wasn't issue as it would make Hyperfocus somewhat easier but giving 1.8 % at max per extremely fast skillcheck is fair for using two slots. Issue of stake out wasn't only that it cheesed all perks like Fogwise, Road Life etc. it also made greats give 2 % more rather than 1 %, so more than hyperfocus at max tokens. I'm truly dissapointed from these changes. I believe they understand that hyperfocus is balanced around high skill and want to preserve it's identity but to be fair most gen progress perks got worse and with quad slowdown being meta and more slowdown coming I feel like there will be very little option to pressure gens and despite most of my lobbies have at least one hyperfocus and stake out it's never enough to get enough advantage. Hyperfocus with This Is Not Happening would be much better and fairer option as greats would still be required but you will now have slightly easier time fighting servers. Dark arrogance I feel was issue mainly on Clown and Freddy who are already very strong with save the best for last. The fact that you would have perma 5 stacks and can go all the way up to 1.3s cooldown is insane and I can't see any world where this would be fun to go against. I believe they shouldve just make it so it doesn't stack with other cooldown perks and it would be completely fine. I don't know. Survivors already didn't get anything interesting and I can't see myself after seeing this patch notes to be exited for something refreshing. May experiment with compromised perks if they are left untouched. But sadly meta shake up is not coming.
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Hmm, mixed feelings on this one.
I'm glad StB's deactivation condition got reverted, as it mostly just negatively impacted solo queue players. But the nerf still didn't change the most problematic part about the perk (making 2-1-1-0 hook stages into 1-1-1-1) and also with 2 minutes of broken, as long as the killer has a bit of brains and goes after the broken survivor, 2 minutes is long enough to down them, hook them, and then even when they are unhooked they'll still be broken for an easy tunnel out. Really wish BHVR changed StB to 60s of broken and deactivation when 3 unique survivors have a hook stage.
I'm not sure why This Is Not Happening got gutted. I understand it's probably because of Hyperfocus, but the combo was still much weaker than current Hyperfocus + Stakeout. I guess brand new players still might find this useful for their first few hours, but this takes away even the small reason anyone else would use it. Hyperfocus really should just be changed so the skill checks are locked, otherwise I swear we're going to have this same issue again.
I'm glad Dark Arrogance didn't make it to Live, although the way it was changed is a bit concerning. I don't think the new effect is quite worth the increased stun duration. I would like to see the stun penalty reduced by 10% or so, or see it simply changed to something like 10-15% faster cooldowns but still include hits.
Well, not really surprised that despite the community being in uproar about Windows of Opportunity, BHVR still didn't revert it. It's a change for the sake of change, a change simply because a perk is popular and not based on actual strength. The new WoO is also terrible because of only working on windows, being on a 30s cooldown while also being only 10%, so I doubt many will use it. I'd rather experiment with Spine Chill any day.
I'm glad Borrowed Time is being reverted, at least that's good. It was just a weird, nonsensical change. The rough idea wasn't bad, but the actual affect of the perk was useless and replaced a perk that, while niche, was still quite decent.
So overall, one of the several killer meta perks that came from this update may possibly be worse than before the PTB now, although I think that remains to be seen. Survivors, in an update that was apparently supposed to focus on buffs, had to save 2 different anti-tunnel perks from being destroyed and one of them is still receiving a massive nerf. TINH got nerfed so that it will barely see any use just like before, although at least brand new players will find it useful I guess, and Windows of Opportunity, a great perk for inexperienced and more casual survivors got reworked into something barely anyone will use.
So killers lost a new toy, although I didn't realize it stacked with Unrelenting and will have to test that out. And survivors managed to riot enough to save themselves from getting stepped on quite as much, but they're still getting stomped on. Even though a couple of these are nice changes, I'm pretty disappointed so far. Hopefully the full list of changes gives me a bit of hope.
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Yes. I'm personally fine with the Diminishing Return Feautre but I also wouldn't hate a hard-cap for everything/what they tried before.
I just hate the fact that the devs make Dark Arrogance bad again because the Diminishing Return is not enough to keep the combination of all cooldown-perks healthy. Then, give it a hard cap and keep Dark Arrogance useful since it is a high risk and reward type of perk that only works good pure M1 killers that have trouble with distance.
I also hate the disagreement of fast pick up speed gets a hard cap but basic-attack cooldown not. Why do for the same issue different solutions
2 -
Wasnt diminishing returns suppose to make perk stacking a non-issue? If Dark Arrogance was an issue when stacked why not nerf the numbers when stacked or put on an activation condition. It’s primarily a vaulting perk so was the perks attack hit cooldown only active after vaulting or just active all the time? I don’t understand how perk stacking is still an issue after Diminishing Returns which was supposed to address it. Couldn’t you also cap the maximum amount of cooldown recovery for successful or missed attacks? It seems like the Perk itself isn’t the issue, just the interactions.
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I was truly only ready for TINH change as it opened interesting paths to make laggier servers more managable nad open more room for perks like Fogwise which I really like but with how servers affect skillchecks sometimes it's rough. Dark Arrogance change is horrible and we know why it happened - Clown and Freddy. Welp, at least they couldve give it some sort of limitation that it doesn't stack with same instances to make both perks good on their own rather than combining it. STB is exactly my point. The perk was meant to help hard tunneling but it's potential was different. If you start with three tokens and lose one each time somebody is hooked it would mean that it could potentially be used by two players if killer is desperately going for same survivor but can't create those unhealthy scenarios. At this point the perk punishes people for alturistic antitunnel help and keeps the problematic aspect anyway. Will you shoulder random teammate to give yourself obvious target for 2mins? Not me. Windows are weird change indeed. Can't see myself running it over Finesse at all. You know where windows are and 10 % with DR is quite low to make the perk worth running. I see they want to give WOO final nail in the coffin which is fine on my part, but now you will never be able to achieve old WOO effect with both perks equipped which is rough. People have to understand that rng spawn pallets randomly, indoor maps spawn portion of pallets and running into deadzones against killer will feel pretty bad. "This pallet was used, oh and this didn't spawn." I don't run these perks but I see reason why this might be the biggest nerf to survivor to date with how many people relied on WOO. Time will show. Not me going back to survivor though when they overkilled perk to be even worse than now. You stood injured to get better greats which was big trade off now you will get good bigger and that's it. People with 5+hrs can hit skillchecks normally and this perk will hurt them more than help.
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Yeah it is. It's still getting nerfed. It's just not getting nuclear nerfed. That appears to not be good enough for this community though.
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Yeah I agree with this. Was the attack cooldown always on? Or was it locked behind vaulting like the rest of the benefits? I feel like with a cooldown and a activation condition it shouldn’t have been a huge issue, especially with Diminishing Returns. Am I missing something here?
-1 -
Can you just make shoulder not work on people who have used it? That way solo don't get punished like on the PTB but SWF's can't just chain back to back shoulders into unwinnable states?
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This seems like a good and reasonable suggestion. I wish the Devs would address it.
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Do you mean people who have used the perk? Or not working on people who have already been shouldered once before?
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I feel like they have issues doing decisions and manage to keep eye on creating new ones. Who would guess that 1.3s cooldown on killer who causes hindred would be an issue? Why should GF, Pig or Trapper suffer for that? They want to change STB to not be problematic but keep the main problematic aspect anyway. Who would guess that reworking BT to some meme YT video perk would completely gut remains of altruistic antitunnel if they want to make STB very punishing for being in play. I always said that capping each modifier would be better solution than DR. Dark Arrogance could be 30 % as it wouldn't stack, Hyperfocus and Stake out could cooexist as they wouldn't stack and so on.
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And imagine 25 % vault speed worth the longer stun when you can use any other much better perks. Make Hope 7 % and lock it's haste at 7 %, Make Friends Till The End 10 % and lock it at 10 %. This would solve everything. You would only care about individual perks without worrying about their synergiez.
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Congrats you took Dark arrogance with plenty of downsides, giving it more making it more usless then it was before, meanwhile you hold your survivors hand while removing the downside of Shoulder the Burden… WHAT WAS THE POINT OF THIS CHANGE!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
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Shoulder the Burden
Removed the deactivation condition for other Survivors.
Good change. StB is a very strong perk, but nerfing it in this way disproportionately hurts solo queue. The injury and broken will probably be sufficient to curb most troublesome uses of the perk IMO.
This is Not Happening
Removed the Great basic Skill Check zone increase.
It bothers me that we now have a second perk being reworked around Hyperfocus, instead of just changing Hyperfocus. PTB This is Not Happening and pre-PTB Stake Out were very comfy perks for beginner players, that were inoffensive on their own. Now, This is Not Happening is useless and the new Stake Out is accessible only to more experienced Survivors due to the Skill Check difficulty. Not a fan. I would rather Hyperfocus Skill Checks were turned into "Special" Skill Checks that didn't interact with other perks instead of having every other Skill Check perk bottlenecked by it.
Dark Arrogance
Basic-attack cooldown no longer affects successful hits.
Removing the new upside of the perk while retaining the increased downside renders this perk significantly worse than before. I'd prefer it to just be fully reverted to what it was before if we can't keep the basic-attack cooldown.
Borrowed Time – will remain the same as it currently is on Live
Very thankful for this. The current Borrowed Time is way more useful, especially in solo queue, than the proposed rework.
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We were so close to getting a perfect meta shake up and now they just buffed STB and nerfed TINH
-1 -
It still has 120 of broken, so it will now incentivize even more to go after shoulder user to get them out of the match quicker. I hate these changes too. Finally something you are looking forward to result in nothing looking forward to. I'm not even expecting much more with rest of changes.
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Man do I have a lot to say to this, so buckle up if you find in depth perk discussion interesting…
I had pretty much nothing but praises to say seeing the PTB patch notes, other than Windows and BT, but seeing these changes is super disappointing.
First of all, weird and awkward wording with Windows of Opportunity and Borrowed Time. The WoO changes were bad and I was happy to read that they'll "stay the same" the same way BT will "stay the same", but then I reread and see that they're doubling down on removing pallet reading. I just don't get why. Extremely few players find Windows to be a problem, and if it really is an issue, keeping it how it is in live and then nerfing it to say 24m would be more than sufficient. Reverting BT makes sense though, but still.
Then to the perk changes. Dark Arrogance was one of the most exciting perk changes this patch, and now the one interesting upside that makes it actually worth running over Bamboozle or even the now buffed Superior Anatomy is suddenly removed. Why? If 25% was too much, which I don't think it was, why not try 15% or 20%? Why preemptively cull the perk like this? It's reactionary, overly catious, boring and disappointing to see. On top of that, thematically, wouldn't it make more sense to make it say, 25% reduction on successful hits, but 25% increase in whiff recovery on missed hits instead to add to the whole "get punished more for making mistakes" theme, while keeping the powerful effects? That would be both balance and interesting for both sides. And on top of removing this upside, we keep the 25% longer stuns instead of 15%, so it's overall just a weaker perk than before now. Disappointing change.
This Is Not Happening changes are also not good. I was actually pleasantly surprised when I saw the changes in the PTB, a simple but solid buff to make it more consistent. The literal only time having 30% bigger skillchecks permanently may potentially have become a problem is with Hyperfocus but to be completely honest, at this point bring it on. This perk has been dead content since its inception, so why not just release it and see how it fares? The literal only reason to run this perk is for the great skillchecks, so removing them makes the perk completely pointless. And if you're not willing to change Hyperfocus, you could at the very least, just you could have with Dark Arrogance, have tried to simply tone the numbers down on the effect that you deemed too powerful instead of completely removing the effect entirely. Would 10% bigger skillchecks have been too powerful? 20%? Why not at least try that, before making the perk useless again?
As for Shoulder the Burden, it's a hot topic. But the "once per match" downside from the PTB, despite what a lot of players who may not even have ever used the perk or ever been in a match with two shoulders at the same time, is not a soloq nerf, it's a SWF nerf, particularly high level SWF. Removing this downside you added is misguided and misses the problem point of the perk entirely, which is that stacking the perk in a group to force hook spread regardless of if the killer tunnels or not is too strong. Now with this downside removed, this problem point is back. Sure, some more casual players will complain that "Why am I being punished for my teammates also bringing the perk?" but they miss the point entirely that multiple solos bringing Shoulder is rare, and that if another player gets to use their Shoulder, that's already a very good thing for the survivor team. I get the idea that it feels bad to be "punished" for someone else also bringing a perk and then you don't get to use it, but that only makes sense if you don't look at the survivor team as a team, and only think of yourself. If you think of the survivors as a team, you'll be happy that your teammate got their hook state exchanged in the first place, even if you weren't the one to do it.
At the same time, I actually think making survivors become injured and broken from using Shoulder is a bad change, and let me explain why. Bottom tier, M1 killers get to benefit from Exposed, but don't get any particular benefit over someone being injured vs exposed. But top tier killers that can damage with power, like Nurse, Blight, Dracula, Jason and a few others, will be much more deadly against shoulder now that it causes broken. Meanwhile, for M1 killers, it's about the same as if they were Exposed. So you've simultaneously made the perk weaker against stronger killers while allowing forced hook spreading by good SWF players to happen, which hurts lower tier killers that have to work harder for each hook more. Making it remain Exposed only, but buffing the Exposed duration to 80 or 90 seconds would have to me been a better change, especially now that Vigil can't be used to reduce the duration. Disappointing.
I'm sure plenty of perks will remain interesting in the full update, but as you say in the post, these are just some of the perks being changed, and it makes me wonder how many other perks have been preemptively nerfed before they even got a chance to be played this patch. I guess we'll see as the patch releases, but this is not a good look if you're proudly showing off these changes as something you've thought through and want to showcase to everyone before release.
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