So DBD sucks now
Yeah the game just sucks now. Nerf all our perks and don't let people abandon now. Killers do nothing but tunnel and camp which is a huge snooze fest. Like where is the skill what happened to actual skill while playing. Oh right they made it so even babies can play even though its rated M. Revert the update its not fun many people have uninstalled the game. Maybe just bring back 2v8 permanently. That is way more fun than the ######### thats out now.
Comments
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I had much harder matches as killer after the update than over weeks before, so I wouldn't say that it seems to be too bad
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Killers do nothing but tunnel and camp
Do you want to know why exactly killers need to do it?
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Because killers won't let the game move beyond these boring tactics. No one reasonable has ever expected tunneling to be addressed without other changes. Do you want to know why generators need to be as fast as they are? Its because tunneling is in the game, the two are connected.
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Watching both sides race to claim victim over the latest patch has been entertaining I will say.
My general feeling is killers benefitted from the perk changes more but survivors benefit more from the improved MMR. We all lose however from this being far away from this update being an actual meta shake up.
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I know they are connected, but it's only the killers who are expected to play worse, survivors have no point to not do the gens so why killers have to not play effectively. I don't understand the unfun argument, survivor being tunneled gets to chase whole game so they don't have to do gens (which are boring to do), killers still chase the same way they would with any survivor.
I would be happy if tunneling got removed but it would need to be fair to the killer side too.
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One person's fun is another's misery.
The survivor being tunneled will usually start at a disadvantage after the unhook (health state likely missing, nearby resources likely used) nor is there any tension to many. For example me it not fun because there's no build up, no suspension it's just ok here we go again. All the feelings from the first chase hadn't dulled, so it ends up feeling like a stretch of 1 chase. Additionally there's the whole "my game is pretty short and unfulfilling if/when I get tunneled or how irrivocably screwed any remaining survivors chances are if someone else is tunneled.
If you don't see it as unfun that's fine, but please don't ascribe what you like with everyone else.
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- Tunneling has a disproportionate effort and risk to reward ratio. It takes significantly more effort and skill from the survivors to counter tunneling than it does for the killer to go for a tunnel out and the reward for getting someone out is often an unwinnable game for the survivor team.
- If the survivors are entirely solo queue I would go so far as to argue that tunneling cannot be reasonably countered unless matchmaking is made significantly stricter (which it won't be).
- I like being chased and if I am the one being tunneled then yes I will enjoy the match but if I am one of the other three survivors not being tunneled then my match devolves into just sitting on generators hoping my teammate can last. That's 75% of the survivors have a boring match possibly compounded into a frustrating loss if the tunnel is successful.
- Nothing forces the killer to tunnel specifically me and I am not typically the worst looper on the survivor team (I am not saying I am great or can't improve or anything like that) meaning I regularly get dropped and the killer goes after someone else.
- When tunneled I don't get a chance to heal and may be hooked in a deadzone, that isn't a real chase I just go down for free.
In short, tunneling is OP unless you run into a sweaty four stack, leaves the majority of survivors in an unfun match where they sit on gens and have fewer chases than they could have, and are often left in an unwinnable match waiting to die through no fault of their own. No one wants to stay in a match they have already lost (which is why I am not against killers being able to surrender once generators are completed though my preference would be a full rework to endgame, possibly having survivors "win" if all gens get completed and then we make endgame super deadly but that is just one idea).
I get that you can't possibly know if you are in a match where you would need to tunnel from the start to win but given that I see people claim they don't like feeling "forced" to tunnel and want less sweaty matches I don't understand why they then insist on tunneling. If you don't tunnel and it causes you to lose your MMR goes down and you get less sweaty matches, matchmaking is bad so that won't entirely be the case but it does do something at least some of the time. By tunneling you are stating you want sweatier matches against better survivors.
As I said, no one reasonable would expect tunneling to be addressed without other changes to the game. There are lots of ways this could be done but anytime anything is even suggested it gets lambasted or never makes it out of PTB. Anti-tunnel was pulled two days into the PTB that wasn't enough time to test it at all.
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Killers care entirely too much about the 4k. When you leave someone laying on the ground to go chase the 4k. Its like bro, just kill me pls.
As Survivor I literally play each match with the expectation of not escaping. So why are Killer's so obsessed with the 4k?
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Noone can explain it, so stop pretending you could.
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Tunnel and camping weren't part of the abandom system before. What was removed was being repetitively slugged, but look what's missing from the OP.
To complain about perks being nerfed, I don't see it. Many perks were buffed. Healing for one. Unless a killer buff equals a survivor nerf in you eyes, you are just blowing smoke.
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shoulder should never of been a perk it should’ve been a base game mechanic, and the only downside should be the trading of a hookstate.
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Because some people, including myself, don't see a reason to play a game against other people without the goal to win. Why would I play against other people if I don't want to compete with them? There are enough pve-games that are less of a hustle and don't take thousands of hours to learn and play cleanly. And why would I let someone potentially win (as in not killing them, I know that hatch counts as draw), if I can also win completely?
Now I don't say that you have to or should always go for the 4k, but I see the reason why people do it, I'm just to lazy to do it personally. I count 3k with hatch as a win (of the entire game), I only slug the last one if you really annoyed me or if I know where you are.
I also don't go into a match with the expectation to win (depends on the peoples profiles to be fair, 100 hours probably won't win against me), but I will try if I get the chance.
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This is a casual game in theory.
Also you get absolute nothing in this game if you win, since no ranked mode, for proper competitive PvP game I would look elsewhere
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I get fun from it. Sure I can also have fun if I don't win, but something is missing then. Also no matter if it's meant as a competetive game or not, if you have two teams or people that play against each other it will be competetive at some point - it's just a thing that's bound to happen for me.
It never made sense for me that bhvr says it's a casual game, for that the gameplay is way to easy to make some kind of competition out of it.
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The reality is that any pvp game invites competitiveness. People like building up their own skill to beat other human players.
If DBD was purely a casual game than survivors have no reason to complain about dying regardless of the methods. Because it just doesn't matter as you say.
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Oh look, survivors now have 20 different versions of slightly faster healing perks, that don't stack with each other and offer nothing unique in terms of gameplay.
Meanwhile, multiple versions of quad slowdown still remain untouched and all synergize perfectly together. Oh and tunneling buffed again, and survivors are trapped for longer in toxic matches yaaaaay.
Incredible "meta shake up"
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Killers play to win and the game is still heavily survivor sided out of absolute bottom of mmr.
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My favorite part is that Undone was buffed to be meta-worthy, so just another anti-gen in the meta. How exciting.
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I've been spending more time playing Dead by Daylight, and I always play as a solo survivor. I know it's getting harder for me now, but I always try all sorts of ways to get more wins.
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I'll say I usually play in a duo but with the recent perk changes I've been running Sole Survivor and it has been very helpful to my team outside of duo too. I still have fun even when I lose 3+ matches in a row like I have tonight but I would 100% say that is because I am playing with someone else.
I can see DBD sucking if you play solo or if you're playing the game wanting to win most of your matches (imo that mindset puts more pressure on performance rather than trying something fun like trying to get value out of an interesting build). On the fun builds side though the game almost discourages this with how long it takes to unlock another character + grind BP… just got Kwon tonight (because of the iri shard discount), and might also get Vittorio later.
As killer honestly idk I can't do the first person POV usually-I feel so blind, so I only played 2v8 and it was fun because you were always chasing, always hooking, always patrolling, and had a buddy with you… When I played IDV with is another 1v4 asym, it was much the same where I preferred 2v8. I'm just not a fan of playing PvP alone, so honestly all the more power to people who can do it and somehow enjoy it. To that end, I hope BHVR can make fun, engaging killers. I know people complained about Judgement not being friendly for everyone to play, and in a casual game I think a character coming out in that state is a shame.
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and what exactly are these "other changes"? So many survivor mains cry that "turn everyone into swf and THEN balance killlers".
Do you know what happened to games that did -exactly- that?
- VHS : Dead
- TCSM : Dead
- Halloween: Dead
literally any asym game that has catered to the "group" is dead and buried because, guess what, letting survivors auto win if they have a pulse does not translate well into game health. Which turns into hour long queues which turns into people stop queueing which eventually turns into dead game.-4 -
I haven't really bothered to play recently. But last time I did spirit hard tunneled me whole game and I decided that's enough dbd for me.
I can say I'm not fan of the survivor perk nerfs. Windows in fact carried many players and now the nerf increases the gap between good survivors and bad survivors. Nd guess what the bad survivors usually play soloQ and good survivors swf. Chat wheel really isn't gonna do much if you down in 10 seconds.
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Two of those are Gun, they died because that is what Gun does, take an IP, make a game they market as live service that will surely go on, then throw them in the trash once they have wrung some money out of you while blaming lawsuits or any other reason they can find. I never touched VHS or saw much about it but I have heard everything killed it, balance, marketing, matchmaking placing brand new players against experts from a closed beta, small playerbase from the get go, I would assume it was a combination of these and not just one factor, so the games overall management is to blame. Queue time for any game on any "side" will go long if you favor one side too much regardless of which side or game we are talking about.
For your actual question, how can I expect you to be asking this in good faith when you ask it like that? Crying about this game is universal and I would argue that whether the game is currently balanced for swf or solo is entirely dependent on which killer we are talking about, low tier solo, top tier swf. I will humor the possibility that you are in fact asking this in good faith but know that it will be a wall of text.
It depends on how exactly tunneling gets addressed. The more we do in one direction the more we need to do in the other as well.
My personal preference would be to pool all survivors first eight hooks, this completely eliminates the possibility of someone out early so it demands similar measures on the other side. This would mean some form of regression/slowdown on most hooks. We would still want to encourage going after each individual survivor rather than just target the same one over and over again so something should be considered there as well.
I would suggest either a regression event (pain res style) or gens are repaired more slowly (thana style) for some number of seconds when a survivor is hooked for the first time with the second hook giving a less potent effect than the first. I would additionally propose boosting the second hook event to a higher value than normal if the killer has hooked all four survivors once before they hook any survivor for a second time. Should the killer hook everyone once and then hook everyone again for two hooks on everyone to get the eight they should get a significant effect. I wouldn't commit to any specific values or effects right here because that is going to need a lot testing and balancing.
In my ideal world we would take this one step further and remove all other gen speed up/slowdown/regression/blocking/etc on both sides with the exception of gen kicks and the regressing they cause, there is too much variance between running no slowdown and four slowdown perks and whether or not survivors bring gen speed perks and toolboxes. This and the above establishes a speed generators will be repaired at, no slower, no faster, except where baseline mechanics interact with them. An adjustment to this that could be made to still maintain some variance on regression by allowing the killer to pick one form of regression in a fifth perk slot and have these perks only selectable in that one slot but the balance on these would need to be pretty strict since we want to limit gen speed variance.
We should also be treating different killers differently, its past time ghostface stopped playing under the same rules nurse does. Part of the reason I wouldn't want to commit to a specific value right now is that I think it should be different for different killers. You could instead alter other aspects of the trial such as pallet count or baseline gen speed for different killers but BHVR has been reluctant to do that so if that isn't going to happen we should do something about it here. I personally would also love if each killer got a unique effect upon hooking and we could even tie that into the other system where the effect is buffed for the rest of the trial if you hook each survivor once before hooking someone else with the final eight hook effect being killer dependent as well. An example of this could be unknown randomly infecting a survivor or two.
I want you to understand though that I don't think any of this is a complete solution, I am almost certainly missing things and there are probably scenarios that I haven't thought of that would be problematic. Baseline gen time would probably need to be adjusted at the same time but to what I am unsure as it depends on the strength of all the above. It would touch so much of the game that it is difficult to understate how many things would need to be altered. At least some of this is also stepping on the toes of existing perks so those would possibly need changes or reworks. I am open to other options and I do in fact want it to be fair to both roles. The current state seems to be a problem for everyone that complains about tunneling and everyone that complains about gen speeds, we could have a better funner game for everyone it would just take work.
Small edit: this also needs anti slug, we want to remove early elimination so that likely means removing bleed out timers and allowing self pickup after a few minutes, this also acts as a way for killers to play around a survivor that has been hooked trying to get hooked again to prevent the 4 hook buff, survivor gets slugged and probably just wasted time
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If you know where the last survivor is after you down the second-last I have no problem with going for that 4K because it's usually pretty swiftly over.
But if you have no idea where the last survivor is and don't have anything to help you find them, then it's a slog for everyone involved including the killer. I hope you're not doing this. Although I guess it's fine with the Haunted by Daylight queue because those stupid haunts will find the last survivor for you and make them scream.
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small playerbase from the get goI think this is really underrated as a reason for why some of these games fail. Some just didn't have the appeal to draw an audience, people didn't even take time to really look at gameplay or balance.
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Only if the last survivor really annoyed me or even the entire team, otherwise it's too much of a hustle and I find the hatch or survivor usually before the escape. I don't really have any morals that would stop me from doing things like this, but I'm pretty lazy for the most part.
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First off great response, most people don't even put a fraction of the energy you did into responding. The reason I come off so hostile is because this idea (on both sides) has been proposed ad nauseum 500x for the last 6+ years. Turn every solo queue game into swf and THEN balance killers, OR the flip side…buff every killer to be like S tiers and THEN balance survivors around that. In an ideal world sure, absolutely. But BHVR can't even balance perks (STB, DS, DH) or killers (Nurse, Judgement, Skull merchant) without it taking months to years, and it typically resolves into gutting whatever is strong at any given moment. Your ideas are all great but you run into an immediate issue where players "dont want to get punished for bad teammates" so they'll not want to play in such systems you describe.
However, I think no matter what the quality of your teammates dictate your games enjoyment so this idea of "I can win regardless of how bad my teammates are" is flawed. Again though, people don't want to pool hook states, or suddenly have their gen explode because N hooks get met because "muh teammates bad". I 100% agree with everything you say, but being real between public perception and BHVR's track history of buffs and nerfs I cannot even fathom how such a thing can be produced in terms of real dates and real details. Your idea of treating bad killers different vs good killers is also great…but who identifies the tiers? What if ghostface got a 3x reveal buff? Is he suddenly judgement tier? What if trapper spawns with all traps on his person? Who dictates what buffs/nerfs move killers up/down in the tier list?
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I mean, the reason it gets brought up time and time again is because it remains an issue in the game whether you are complaining about it from the tunneling side or the gen speed side. I think almost everyone agrees that it doesn't feel right and its going to continue to come up unless something real gets changed. I personally am an absolute advocate of making killers closer in strength which of course requires changing survivor to match. I agree no change that keeps ghostface ghostface is going to make them judgement tier but its why I am so in favor of altering the trial conditions for killers as part of that strength. Its really sad that BHVR is so reluctant to consider it, the most boring approach of just altering gen times for different killers would potentially do a lot.
Teammates are always going to be complained about even when they are not actually bad so I am pretty happy to just ignore comments like that. I also think a system like this would improve player enjoyment in matches where a bad teammate makes them lose, you are at least more likely to get chased at some point since there would possibly be a massive incentive to chase you over your worse teammate. If the killer is struggling to down someone they can still target the weaker survivors, they just get less for it.
I think this has the bonus of being a better teacher for new players, on the killer side if you find someone to be untouchable they are probably above your skill level and while you would learn something from chasing them its not as much as someone closer to you and total untouchability just leads to frustration. On the survivor side, if you get targeted well at least you have a whole ton of hook states which makes it more realistic that you will learn something and ideally the system would be balanced such that targeting one person for the full 8 pooled hooks would result in a loss for the killer, though that would at least partially be based on exactly how bad in chase they are plus it means a teammate is constantly instant unhooking them so probably two bad survivors (small aside, no idea how the system would handle being left on hook, it shouldn't get in the way of the killer getting the 4/8 hook bonus but it does still need to count against the survivors hook pool).
As for who decides tiers, it would have to be feedback from multiple avenues. We know you can't just look at kill rate/win rate because those don't necessarily indicate a killer is weak or strong. We know we can't take everything the playerbase says at face value either. There just isn't a silver bullet for game balance. The best you can do is look at as many sources as available to you and ensure it gets tested thoroughly by multiple play groups. Sadly, I agree that BHVR just doesn't seem to have the right team in place to handle this. I play board games a lot and there are many great examples of balanced asymmetrical experiences in that space. Its kind of incredible how companies that have to commit to a physical product they can't change end up doing a better job than a company that theoretically can change the game at will.
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