Legion Moonwalking... Exploit or not?
I see a lot of people shouting that it is, can we get an official word on this so the matter can be closed and we can move on with the conversations?
I personally don't think that it's an exploit and just want it clarified whether I'm right or wrong in this thinking.
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@Carpemortum so close, but no cigar. What I said is true, but they did go on to say that if it becomes a problem, they will look into making changes. Well guess what, they announced last week that they are making changes. So, if you can stop mis-using the exploit term, we can end this discussion.
P.S. I don’t like it when a Legion does this either, but using the wrong terms does not help make a point. In fact, it has the exact opposite effect. If people had just said, “It has become a problem, and needs to be addressed.”, BHVR might have said something earlier. Using the “exploit” term is dangerous when used incorrectly, and requires a well thought out response.
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obviously it is
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Devs already said it isn't. Moonwalking has been part of the game for a long time and is a major mindgame strategy amongst most Killers.
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It should be, IMO, but as I understand it, the devs don't think it is, therefore it's not.
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Where did they say it? I'd like to add the link to the OP and call it a day :)
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Moonwalking is part of the game, but using it to bypass a chase 'flag' to keep a power working beyond what is intended, is an exploit.
Bannable is on the devs.
Moonwalking for pigs traps is a thing too but I've not seen the outcry.
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You're making a timer that downs people count down in a chase, when it's not supposed to. How is it not an exploit?
Devs also said they'll change Legion if it becomes the norm. Guess what was announced a couple of days ago?
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@SpaceCoconut On an unrelated note, I love knowing what you sound like, means I can read all you say in your voice lol
cya in the comments of your next vid
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@SpaceCoconut I know what he's referring to. I believe in stream #117 Creation of the Legion.
I'll try to get the video/timestamp for you.
Edit: Maybe it isn't that one 🤔 Gonna be a pain in the ass to find a small comment in a bunch of dev streams :/
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Technically it isn’t since it is part of the game. It’s more of a strategy for killers (if you play like that) because you can play like that with any killer if you want to.
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But it's moonwalking in terms of Legion we are talking about here. It's not just any killer.
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The user and all related content has been deleted.3
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Moonwalking is moonwalking. You can't exclude one Killer from it just because he benefits more than others.
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But you can when the killers power specifically says not in a chase, and because you're chasing backwards the game counts as not in a chase.
It's a liiiiittle bit of bs.
Pig could do it but waste her time....
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Exploit = using bugs to gain an unfair advantage.
Is walking backwards a bug? No
Is tailing a survivor that you can't see not causing a chase to start a bug? No
Is breaking chase to let DW drain a bug? No
So tell me. What bug is moonwalking being used to exploit? The chase mechanic works and isn't bugged, the movement mechanics work and aren't bugged, and the DW mechanics work and aren't bugged.
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Why did we remove infinites guys, I thought vaulting windows was a form of defense for the survivors...
Why is it okay to vault T and L walls' windows but when it comes to infinites it suddenly becomes a problem.
Windows are windows.
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Vaulting is a form of defense. Infinites are a defense, but they are braindead and easy to use. Even if the Entity blocks it, it takes so long to get a Survivor to vault enough times to get the vault blocked. And even then, that's temporary...
T walls and L walls can be predicted and punished.
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Well, you're right. Any killer that moonwalks to avoid a chase to make Deep Wounds timer tick down is exploiting. Legion happens to be the only killer that can inflict it so in his case it is the most egregious.
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@bubbascal IKR?
Now try to apply that to the legion and ask yourself why it is okay to lets say moonwalk with a killer like leatherface but not with a killer like legion.
Infinites existed because the devs had no idea that they could come into the existence. They never thought that survivors could do something like that. Unlike other windows, infinite windows were something else but they were windows anyway.
Legion can moonwalk too just like leatherface but it does something that leatherface can't do but it is a moonwalk anyway that has no counterplay.
It doesn't matter though, they are gonna change it and people are kind of beating a dead horse here.
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I understand your complaints, but there is some counterplay. Grass makes it harder to see blood. Starting to mend on the spot can encourage a Legion to not moonwalk. Stay in a chase as well, intentionally try to get in front of the Legion to trigger a chase. If they keep trying to turn around, mend. Or, if they stand there, continue to mend.
You can also try to vault while you still have a timer and a moonwalking Legion is behind you, then start mending. If they vault, trigger a chase.
Apply pressure on them and waste a Legion's time to encourage them not to moonwalk. Especially if you still have quite a bit of time on your Deep Wound meter.
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Borrowed TIme says hello.
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Breaking chase by exploiting a system. Yes.
Chasing is following a survivor within a certain distance.
Chasing, but backwards, is still chasing, and should not let anything that says "while in a chase" be disregarded simply because you're walking backwards and technically dont have LoS.
LoS breaks (which end a chase) were intended for jungle gyms and buildings, ending chases by juking and hiding, etc.
So someone saying that moonwalking "to circumvent bleedout timers" (not to mindgame, look cool, fake red stain trail, etc) that were designed to "not tick down while in a chase", should absolutely be considered an exploit.
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@SpaceCoconut Borrowed time had a timer until Legion came out. That's when it got the bleedout deep wounds. Remember you used to just go DOWN after X seconds. No mending.
So borrowed time moonwalking is almost entirely dependent on and relevant to the arguements of how the deep wounds timer from Legion works.
But yes, it is NOW just as possible against BT as any killer.
Edit: idk why half my posts are all bold or thick.
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exploiting is using game mechanics in an unintented way. Doesnt has anything to do with bugs. Why the hell do you tell such lies?
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If Moonwalking isn't an exploit as people say, then neither is Pallet Looping.
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Its not an exploit, its just poorly tought design. As it is now, Deep Wound is a mechanic that reward the killer for moonwalking. Its probably not what the designers had in mind but it is what they made.
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No. It is working exactly as designed. The Deep Wound timer does not go down in a chase. Legion is just following stabbed survivors without chasing them. You don't even need to moonwalk, its just a quick way to interupt the chase without losing too much pace. All you have to do is track them at a distance. There are even perks to help you do that. Bloodhound, but also Predator and Stridor all help you follow survivors without entering a chase.
I have no clue what they intended because the whole power is a mess. The Legion are a 110% speed killer, so chasing survivors the regular way is not their forte. So you are supposed to use freral frenzy right ? Except it will take 4 hits of feral frenzy to down a survivor wich can take forever with frenzy reseting for each stab after the first one. If you do that the deep wound timer is completly irrelevant. So you leave them and go find someone else ? Ok, but then they just mend at 0 risk because it will freeze the timer at 1% no matter what and there are no skill checks for mending. The timer is entirely pointless if you use the mechanic the seemingly intended way.
The only way to make the power deliver its promise of bleeding deep wounds is to intentionaly break the chase. Thats not an exploit. Following and tracking survivors is not an exploit and neither is walking backward. Feral Frenzy is not bugged (unlike the blades add-ons right now), its working exactly as written on the can. Its just a can full of bad design.
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It is an exploit. I'm at fault for doing it one time, I wanted to try it, then I was like "Ok, this is broken" and I decided to never do that again (This was yesterday)
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Whether or not someone believes it is, there is an upcoming Legion update because they obviously understand the concerns regarding the killer as a whole
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I think it's an exploit, it has little counterplay and doesn't really require any skill from the killer
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Exactly. During a chase. Moonwalking is circumventing the chase. Even though you are literally chasing, making it backwards negates a power?
That's not intended, and is using a mechanic to bypass an intended feature. Aka exploit.
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@Carpemortum tell me now. Which mechanic is the unintended one? Afterall the chase mechanics are clear. The game defines a chase as starting when a survivor is sprinting within the Killers LoS and ending when a survivor is outside of his LoS for a long enough time. Any other definition doesn't mean anything in the context of the game.
Under that definition if you are moonwalking you are not chasing since no survivor is in your LoS. Just because you are moving in the direction of a survivor doesn't mean it is a chase, especially not when there is a very specific mechanical definition for a chase.
Using moonwalking to break a chase is no more of an exploit as a survivor using a wall to break a chase. The devs not thinking about why you would WANT to purposefully break chase isn't relevant in establishing that the mechanics that make it possible are all intentional.
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Intended mechanics leading to unintended but advantageous scenarios isn't exploiting. Its just being clever and/or skillful. No dev can consider every situation so there will always be at least 1 advantageous non-intended non-exploit. Unless you are using exploit to mean ANY advantage, in which case everything that grants an advantage even if intended is an exploit.
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I cannot fathom what you are trying to say here. Moonwalking isn't even the important part. You can bleed out survivors with Legion without ever walking backward. You just have to interupt the chase and track them.
The Red Stain is a game mechanic that alert survivors that the killer is almost onto them or is coming right behind a corner and killers have adapted to it by moonwalking around corners to take survivors by surprise.
Deep Wound is a game mechanic that put survivors on a timer as long as they are not in a chase, so Legions have adapted to it by intentionally breaking chase while still pressuring the survivor in order to make the bloody timer relevant.
The power is poorly designed and moonwalking shenanigans are just the logical conclusion of how it currently works. You don't really have to do anything special, use specific add-ons or perks. You are not using a bug or breaking the game in any shape or form either. Its just a trick. A very, very annoying trick to be on the recieving end of, but that to me does not qualify as a genuine exploit.
I guess what I'm trying to say is don't blame the players that are just using the tools they where given, blame the designers who concocted this mess of a killer ? But hey, maybe this whole discussion will become irrelevant in a few weeks so whatever.
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You dont use a bug. You use a game mechanic in an unintended way, to reach unintended results, making legions power text useless.
Its exploiting it. Simply.
"Breaking the chase while pressuring the survivor"
You mean chasing backwards.
What you describe would be at a decent distance. Not on top of them, simply backwards.
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If you think moonwalking is an exploit, crouching with pig to break the chase and trigger reverse trap is exploit too?
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Technically yeah, but Pig barely has situations where that becomes abusable because trap activation and timers are not even close to the levels of Legions bleedout timer.
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Sure thing, moonwalking when playing legion is definetly a mindgame and not just turning your mouse 180 degrees to not give any survivors the chance to mend. -_-
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Taking in account all last maps which are hecking huge - Legion after hitting first person most of times doesnt see anyone around at all, even with M&A. So he need to continue chase to hook that first one surv, if you just go for straight chase with 110% speed killer - it will take 4 gens chase time. Not to mention that surv can juke his frenzy hits on vaults if timed properly. So you break chase and continue following surv waiting for DW timer or opportunity for M1 hit. Chasing and following is a bit different things. Also, doing it backwards is a bit hard, you know, when you cant see where are you going and bumping into obstacles.
Why ppl is so mad about it and calling it exploit?
Lets call everything that can help end chases exploits.
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No it's not. I'm not going to point out the obvious reasons since everyone else has.
If you think that this is an exploit, then you need to uninstall and come back when you show some signs of intelligence.
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Crouching does not break the chase.
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Could say the same thing to you.
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Moonwalking is hitting on a survivor with Frenzy and following him backwards by the blood until he falls? OMG, I always thought that "legion moonwalking" as other thing, like dribbling a loop.
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@Decarcassor "It is working exactly as designed. "
Just because it is working as designed doesn't absolve the design of being mechanically flawed and therefore exploitable.
Like infinites technically "worked as designed" because they let you gain distance during a chase. But it was still mechanically flawed because you could do it forever.
If you seriously think Legion moonwalk is not an exploit, then you also think infinites are not an exploit. You cannot agree with one and disagree with the other at the same time.
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During chase the bar shouldn't be going down as the ability states. Basically line of sight.
By looking away it "breaks chase" for god knows why. This is in fact an exploit, abusing poorly built mechanics to change how a power works. It is not intended.
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As long as pallet-looping isn't considered an exploit (most games' report systems would classify it under hitbox/collision abuse, fix it and ban every player who abused it, just to say), I don't see why "moonwalking" should be.
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Even a 110 killer without using powers can down someone before 4 gens get done. That's a you issue hon. Not a "we need to use it to be able to kill" thing. Dont chase 1 person for 4 gens. Ffs bloodlust would kick in before then.
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Technically it is unless I don't have the same definition as the devs, Wich wouldn't surprise me
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I think the argument of whether or not it is a true exploit isn't the correct argument. The real argument should be "Am I a massive tool for moonwalking with Legion?"
Yes, yes you are.
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Regarding legion it should be bannable imo but hey, rework comes Soon™, hopefully without abusing crap design.
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i dont think so.
its just bad game design, like many things (e.g. gen tapping during the chase so the gen wont regress any further while you are looping around it)
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