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Enduring NERF INCOMING!
Would you explain to us WHY you decided to bother this perk? You nerfed Tinkerer into the ground, You finally balance MoM to where it's not just a free hit, and compensate by killing Enduring. You aren't slick. You're yet again making DS even more powerful.
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I think this is literally the first time I have seen someone reference some outside source (such as a livestream) and actually provide a link that is relevant for the discussion and explains where the argument comes from
I would like to nominate this thread for best thread
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Perks that stun currently:
- DS
- Head On
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...Oh for ######### sake. We don't need enduring to change!
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Can replicate MoM nerf. If you're hit by a pallet 3 times, when hit again your rate of recovery from stuns is increased by 50/60/75%.
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I haven't used enduring in awhile and learned to play without it, all I can say is this will mostly effect spirit fury builds as DS was nerfed.
R.I.P. Spirit Fury + Enduring Combo.
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Well that's a shame.
Why though, What reasons did they give?
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Enduring is getting buffed for the pallet stuns.
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It's a couple different reasons.
- The wording confused people. Many people think of "75% increased recovery" as "stuns only last 25% of the normal time". This is not the case. Instead of being stun time * (1 - 0.75), it's actually stun time / 1.75. Your stun is only reduced by about 43% when you increase the recovery speed by 75%. With stuns just being half as long, it's much simpler. 2 seconds becomes 1 seconds, bing bang boom, everyone understands.
- The pallet stun durations are actually going to be about 0.15 seconds shorter.
- This way we can re-evaluate stun perks and better balance their stun times. Currently we need to make sure that anything affected by enduring lasts long enough that it doesn't render enduring completely useless. Take a look at DS, for example. It was a 4 seconds stun, where the survivor was locked into the animation for one second. This leaves you with only ~1.28 seconds to run if the killer is using DS. As a result, the stun time was raised to 5 seconds, giving you ~1.85 seconds to run. With that in mind, we could potentially lower it back down to 4 seconds (or even 3 seconds) after this change, making it more consistent whether or not you're using enduring.
It basically allows us better control over balancing stun perks so you're not forced to run enduring just to counter them. All things considered, you probably aren't getting hit with stun perks all too often currently. Decisive strike is easily avoidable and Head On is like a unicorn (it just doesn't exist, and I won't believe you if you say you've seen one). Ultimately you're going to save loads more time with the pallet stun reduction than you would lose from stun perks.
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@Peanits When will brutal be getting a buff you guys keep making enduring better while ignoring brutal can we get a fast kicking of the pallet speed maybe because imma be honest its still outclassed even with the new ds change. Enduring is just better and you guys keep making it better but leaving brutal in the dust.
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It's a buff for Enduring + Spirit Fury, which is the only time I ever see it since DS nerf.
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I HEAR what you're saying, but we ARE NOT STUPID! How many times must I say this to you? You're not changing DS back to 3 secs. You know it and we all know it. Nobody complained about Stuns at pallets with enduring. There's literally no real reason to bother it. Have you even seen the stats to Tinkerer after you killed it?
NOBODY USES IT
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>3. [...] Currently we need to make sure that anything affected by enduring lasts long enough that it doesn't render enduring completely useless.
Calm Spirit renders Spies From The Shadows useless
Iron WIll renders Stridor mostly useless
Aftercare, Empathy, playing SWF renders Knock Out useless
Why is Enduring being prioritized over those perks? Even if the stun times were shorter and Enduring was worse as a result of that then Enduring would still work on pallets which are in every game.
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With all this in mind, this change seems fair. Enduring is mostly put on to reduce pallet stun times anyway, the DS recovery was just a bonus in most circumstances.
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Enduring was sidegraded.
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@KaoMinerva good thing DS is designed as a specialist counter-perk now and not an universal second chance perk.
DS should have a considerable stun to do its job. Most people intentionally putting themselves in harm's way while it's active make it really obvious they want to stab you anyway.
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I don't get what the big deal is, if you get hit by DS most the time you deserve it anyway. I can't imagine it won't affect spirit fury because you're still getting stunned by a pallet, why would spirit fury not be affected by it?
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Do we currently know what the planned change to Enduring is?
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@TAG it will cut the total pallet stun time in half. And no longer effect any other stuns
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You people are a bunch of babies.
If you don't like getting DSed, DONT TUNNEL! It's as simple as that. It's not like they are changing it back to old DS.
+ head on is that great so this would help it.
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I was also told many times that we wouldn't be changing Mettle of Man, but we're currently working on changing that as well. We're not here to twiddle our mustaches and laugh nefariously, we are actually taking feedback and trying our best to make good changes.
One of the biggest differences is the amount of counterplay those perks you listed have. When a perk is passive, it's okay for it to be hard countered by another perk. You gain a benefit and a perk on the other side takes it away. To use Spies from the Shadows and Calm Spirit as an example, the killer gains information on all survivors, and that particular survivor counters it with Calm Spirit. Neither side is earning the benefits, they're always active all the time. It's like a game of rock paper scissors.
When you have a perk that has a requirement, that's when it starts to get a bit more tricky. To go back to the decisive strike example, it's already pretty situational and very easy for the killer to play around it and avoid it completely. Having a perk hard counter it on top of that would be overkill.
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Well they state that it's a buff to enduring when dealing with pallets apparently so that's not a RIP.... but this is completely unnecessary... unless they make it where the killer truly doesnt need enduring when hit by the stun perks then this is just the nerf hammer.... I like picking up survivors and telling em "take your best shot"...with enduring I actually feel powerful.... if you're going through with this........ Do it right....
Edit: Added more info ...... firehazzard not all writing is directed towards you lol..
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Hm, okay. This does not really bother me.
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Oh, that's not bad.
I like it, and you have a point, whoever gets hit with DS deserves it.
I like this.
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Like I said it's a sidegrade. Better in some situations but worse in others
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As I understood it...different stuns last for different times.
A pallet stun doesn't last as long a a survivor that wiggles free...WITH the adjusted time of the perk, the pallet stun is still within parameters. However, the "stun" from a survivor that wiggles free from a killer who has the perk is outside the desired time (meaning it doesn't last long enough).
A such, reducing the timer "across the board" for stuns isn't practical. The perk "allows" just the right time for pallets, and too much reduction for flashlights.
I never used it, so I couldn't care less, but that's how I understood it.
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That's not the point. Unless you wanted to actively drive Killers away from the game with letting current MoM become meta, it was clear that sooner or later, you'd have to change it. The point with the MoM hate you guys get is that it shouldn't have been implemented in that form in the first place and that even though the majority saw its flawed design from the second it was leaked, you still thought that it might be possible for it not to become the trouble it's currently starting to do, and waited for Feedback we already gave en masse.
Also, considering how the Hatch took you 1 year and DS 2+ years to get fixed, you saying that you are fixing it doesn't have a lot of value at the moment, especially considering how everyone and their mother will now try to get broken MoM and use it before it gets changed, thanks to the announcement.
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People don't have ears and don't listen when the devs say something in the stream, no wonder, the only thing people can do is salty'ing and crying around.
Enduring won't affect other stuns anymore but it will increase the recovery speed from pallet stuns more, so it'll buff Spirit Fury/Enduring combo. Idk where you came with "nerf"
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I'm okay with this change actually. I rarely use Enduring anyway, but the change seems reasonable.
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I feel like I am going to use Enduring+Spirit Fury on everything after that change. Even on my hag. It is just way too good not to take it and it is really easy to brtute force it even when not in range for a stun just by lunge atacking. We will see how this will end though. I feel like people may not be too happy if everyone start using it every single game
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DS is a fail-able one-time use perk lol- relax. Enduring still works on pallets smarty! Better with the change, even. Also Stridor actually overrides Iron Will, so it's the other way around. So cut the circle jerk drama session, it's boring. Besides, rationally DS' stun will likely go down to 3 or 4s with this. So the only thing that will be very different is people getting Head On stuns, considering that stun is only 3s and very situational, I'd say it needs it.
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Its about time enduring was powerful against head on and ds now of this days
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@Orion was wondering if you would be reverting the 5 second DS stun back to 4 or 3 seconds.
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Sounds like a buff to Enduring with a clearer explanation of the perk's effects.
And while it was a bonus that it affected DS, that's NOT what its used for 9 times out of 10.
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Not really a nerf if they keep the numbers we are getting stunned by pallets a 0,1 sec less.
DS already have counters (not tunneling, slugging, etc). In my opinion is a nice buff, nothing more.
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Perks that stun currently:
- DS
Head On
@Madjura There, fixed that for you (Head On never actually works)
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- "The pallet stun durations are actually going to be about 0.15 seconds shorter."
Right. So it's not actually a nerf it's a buff. Glad we sorted that myth out. God forbid one of the most powerful killers abilities in game be nerfed oh no, the forums would burn with tears of napalm we can't have that.
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It does work and you can actually get saves with it as well..... you just have to Git Gud
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>To use Spies from the Shadows and Calm Spirit as an example, the killer gains information on all survivors, and that particular survivor counters it with Calm Spirit. Neither side is earning the benefits, they're always active all the time. It's like a game of rock paper scissors.
I can see the logic here but I have to disagree with the design philosophy behind it. Spies From The Shadows (SFTS) as I understand it does literally nothing if all survivors have Calm Spirit (I am not 100% sure whether survivors still trigger crows while sprinting when they have it but the way the perk is worded they don't). Crows are almost, emphasis on almost, useless without SFTF but a killer can still see them fly away even without SFTS. Survivors still get a benefit (albeit minor) while the killer is essentially losing a perk.
Same for Knock Out, Knock Out does literally nothing if all survivors have Empathy. But Empathy does not only render Knock Out completely useless if everyone has it, it has uses outside of it. To use your Rock-Paper-Scissors analogy, it's as if in the case of a draw (all survivors run a perk that counters a killer perk) one side gets half a win towards a best of five. Survivors can only win (their perks always do something, even if it's minor) while killer can only win (perk is not countered completely) or lose (perk is countered, the draw situation is a minor win for survivors).
Stridor is the exception of the three because it always has an effect (louder regular breathing).
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@ygnea "if you get hit by DS most the time you deserve it anyway"
The big problem is that killers very often get punished by DS even though they did not tunnel but simply downed the survivors too fast. They get punished for playing well.
DS needs to get adjusted so that it gets deactivated if another survivor gets downed/hooked after the DS user got unhooked.
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Almost like perks that lower stuns are strong and popular.
*cough*Balanced Landing*cough*
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Literally the only way this is a good thing is if DS gets changed back to 3 seconds IN THE EXACT SAME PATCH as this change.
My money is on 6 months of "observing" DS in a world where Enduring doesn't affect it though
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@Tzeentchling9 I hope you are wrong and the DS stun time gets adjusted soon. It's already bad that this perk also punishes killers who don't tunnel but simply down survivors fast.
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@Tzeentchling9 should keep 5 seconds to do its job with a decisive (heh) and painful stun. BUT it should be disabled the moment someone else goes on the hook (if the killer hooks someone else they're clearly not tunneling) and perhaps during EGC as at that point what is the killer supposed to do other than hunt injured people unless they have NOED/an instadown in their kit.
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Honestly I don't get why all this fuzz, they explained the reasoning and it made perfect sense. Enduring will be more powerful against pallets and other stuns will be balanced without having to account for it. This means that everyone will get something out of it, in the big picture it's a win-win.
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This will be a way too big of a buff to the killers then having the stun being the same as if everyone is having Enduring on. Personally I've rarely used DS vs Enduring person and it is aways when I get unsafe unhooked near the killer so I'd rather have it the way it is now. The sole fact that it has so many other counters outside Enduring which should not counter it as hard in first place inlike like the old DS is enough to leave it like that. As a killer I run into DS sooo rarely/probably because I don't camp ...../ and as someone said if for some reason you run into someone with it usualy it means that person is just bad. So even if you pick them up, which I do, you will still gonna catch them real fast / cause they are bad for running into you in first place again/
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Ugh. Killers only complain about Enduring change because the stuns that were buffed BECAUSE OF Enduring might not get adjusted to the LACK OF Enduring in the same patch.
Its obvious and im amazed survs complain about this situation.
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This is actually a great change.
Enduring is BUFFED against pallets, which it really didn't need to be, but hey, why not.
At the same time, perks like Decisive Strike and Head On become much more consistent options for survivors.
I'm a firm advocate against 2nd chance perks, but DS ONLY affects you if you're already playing like a bit of a dick. If I get hit by it these days, I never react with anger over DS, it's more of a reminder not to tunnel so hard, play better.
Head On is just an inconsistent mess, and like they said its stun is not well balanced for an action that leaves nothing between you and the killer, and a potentially very short stun.
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Ignorant, watch the whole stream and them, just them, you can share your opinion.
I watch it and its clearly a buff so you are simply an ignorant with panic.
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4? Sure. 3? NO. The stun time should’ve never been lowered to begin with, the rework of it being a situational tunneling counter was enough of a nerf. I don’t get why people are arguing for a change back to 3 sec, when it was only 3 for such a short amount of time. 4 seconds is what it was for a long time, and with the tunneling change it’s perfectly reasonable to move it back to that, but no less.
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Just tell us "Don't ever use Enduring again pretty please with sugar on top" and we wont. Pinkie promise. No need to nerf it to the dirt ;-)
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