Stealth. Viability in the current Meta

@Darckshado9 said:
Now, I am a rank 10 survivor so there may be some things I say that don't effect rank 1s, but i felt this was worth putting together anyways. [Also real quick, High agro builds are builds focused on outrunning the killer, instead of stealthing away]
Currently there are 16 Perks which I would classify as Stealth perks (perks that have little to no use in classic high agro builds) and there are 17 perks which I would classify as High Agro Perks (Perks with little to no use in stealth builds)
This means that of the 53 Perks available, 20 weren't able to be classified, perks like botany knowledge as its flexible.
This is a lot closer than I thought and then I decided to look at the Killers, the reason why I started looking into this. Currently the confirmed top Meta killers are The Nurse and The Hill-billy. The Nurse is Directly countered by stealth, as losing her before she regains from her fatigue is of most importance, but the Billy is a bit Different. He generally does well against both High Agro Builds and Stealth Builds, but that said, its completely possible, to do better against a Billy with a Stealth Build then a High Agro due to his instant downing.

Still, I think that Stealth does need a bit of a buff for one simple reason, the Prevalence of BBQ and chili and Whispers to a lesser extent. Killers with these perks pretty much directly counter Stealth builds, leaving only high agro builds. Also worrying is the presence of the Doctor, This means that Stealth will never be the best build in the game, because The Doctor stops any attempts at stealth, but I believe buffing perks like resilience, or premonition will give back the incentive to be a bit more stealthy, giving survivors a cool risk/reward mechanic with builds, they could focus on getting gens done quicker, but leave their team more open if they get found.

And while yes, I know that No mither kind of does this already, the extent that it does it and the need to focus an entire build around it makes it a bit unwieldy, I would also buff no mither to give an iron will status effect (no pain noises from injuries). Ultimately I like the idea of going into a game as a killer and not to expect to see scratch marks all around the map because survivors couldn't care less about being found.

Maybe stealth needs a slight buff (only very slight in my opinion), but actually its all the meta perks that require a hard nerf.

And yeah, even in the current situation stealth is very possible. The only exception might be doc with the illusion addon, very hard to be stealthy against that, but lets face it..... how often do we verse a doc with that specific build

@Brady said:

@Orion said:
Stealth has always and will always be viable. It should be the only way to play, IMO.

Not entirely....

And that's someone who knows how to lose a killer, but it's mainly due to mindgames and resorting to stealth afterwards.

@No_Mither_No_Problem said:
-Barbecue and Chili
-Bitter Murmur
-Nurse’s Calling
-All other Aura-reading Perks/abilities
-Bloodhound+Sloppy butcher combo
-Survivors being obnoxiously loud while injured
-Visual and audio cues for pretty much everything that isn’t walking
-The Doctor’s existence
-The surpsingly high gamma of many maps
-Loud AF music only the Surv can hear while the Killer is close which can cause a lack of judgement in what the Killer hears

“Stealth is viable.” -Every Nurse main

This made me laugh considering it's really true and so ironic to say.

Also, you forgot about Freddy

I was gonna say Freddy but since no one ever plays him it’s kinda a moot point.

@No_Mither_No_Problem said:
I was gonna say Freddy but since no one ever plays him it’s kinda a moot point.

MFW I'm a nobody.

@No_Mither_No_Problem said:
TL;DR: These things can only be avoided in really niche ways.

Sorry, but I don’t suck TrueTalent’s dong. I suck Bricky’s instead.

Maybe you should read it, considering I point out how all these anti-stealth things here can easily be countered. Nothing about beating them is "niche" you just need to know what perks the killer is using and what they do. BBQ doesn't even phase me now, there are so many ways to hide from it.

Like really if you want to make an argument about how hard it is to be stealthy but then completely ignore advice on how to be easily be stealthy I can't help you.

As far as the True comment, yea again read what I write and don't just pick out words to attack. I'm just using him as an example of a good killer that doesn't lose people. When the killer actually finds you and is chasing you, stealth isn't really an option and it's not supposed to be either. Stealth only works up to the point you are found, but it works INSANELY well if you do it right.

@Runiver said:

@Jack11803 said:

@Runiver said:
Stealth is 33% of the game.
The other 33% being juking and strategy.

If you rely solely on stealth, you'll die.
If you rely solely on juking, you'll die (unless the killer is terrible).

Stealth is a decent time waster, and nearly requires Ironwill to be played.
Quick & Quiet is actually a great perk in that regard but tricky to use.

Shouldn’t require a perk at all. Should only be somewhat easy to hear breathing with strider

Well, killer shouldn't require Ruin to play more than 5mins at high ranks.
Also, they actually recently "fixed" the sound so you can actually hear them, after 1 year of buggy sounds. Doubt they're stepping back now, especially since the result is way better now.

I agree both are problems, but as such, saying something else is wrong to rebut a problem I have is a fallacy

@Runiver said:

@Jack11803 said:

@Runiver said:

@Jack11803 said:

@Runiver said:
Stealth is 33% of the game.
The other 33% being juking and strategy.

If you rely solely on stealth, you'll die.
If you rely solely on juking, you'll die (unless the killer is terrible).

Stealth is a decent time waster, and nearly requires Ironwill to be played.
Quick & Quiet is actually a great perk in that regard but tricky to use.

Shouldn’t require a perk at all. Should only be somewhat easy to hear breathing with strider

Well, killer shouldn't require Ruin to play more than 5mins at high ranks.
Also, they actually recently "fixed" the sound so you can actually hear them, after 1 year of buggy sounds. Doubt they're stepping back now, especially since the result is way better now.

I agree both are problems, but as such, saying something else is wrong to rebut a problem I have is a fallacy

Except when the size of the issue is very comparable tho.

That’s stupid. Both are issues, so both need fixes, not “well seeing how I said my issue to rebut yours, I win”

@powerbats said:
How many hours does he have in game, what perks/items/add ons etc. Are the people in his games competent, is he playing solo or in groups or with people who're grouped. Most of my games even with lvl 2's they're idiots, especially against a obvious camper. Get Lery's nurse hey lets feed the nurse camping the basement hooks from just out of terror radius.

I have about 400 hours on Xbox, mostly as survivor. I have almost every survivor perk on my Jake, but often just run Spine Chill, Sprint Burst, Self Care, and then whatever else I feel like. I usually bring a toolbox if I bring an item, and it would be either a yellow or green with speed and charge add-ons. Currently (and several times previously) rank 1, and I have been in PLENTY of games with full rank 1/2 players including killer. I have juked every killer in the game on almost every map. I often pip with at least a silver in Evader, Iridescent if it's a long game or I get found and chased at least twice. Also unless other survivors are giving away your position, them being stupid shouldn't stop you from being stealthy.

@No_Mither_No_Problem said:
@thesuicidefox

LOL rebuttal I don't need to. You can counter all that, except for Doc (which I said in my post). Again read what I wrote because you are just assuming my argument otherwise.

I'm not "assuming" jack. You made invalid points for three elements of Killer detection and refused to acknowledge the rest. You claim you don't "need" to rebuke them because you have no real argument is my guess.

NC + M&A then don't heal unless you KNOW where the killer is. Also Spine Chill. You can stealth killers I do it all the time dude. It's knowing how the killer sees things, line of sight, being able to predict what perks they have. You might not always pull off the stealth but I can assure you it's all beatable.

Spine Chill tellls you when the Killer is looking in your direction. If you're healing and you see it go off, and the Killer has NC, that doesn't tell you to hide. It tells you you've just been found. The best you can do now is get a head start.

Oh and if you are too close for BBQ, the killer has NO IDEA where you are. A circle with a 40m radius is huge, I could be anywhere. If you get within range and he can't see you, then you are completely free to go where you want. I get inside BBQ range then leave. Easy.

You're SERIOUSLY underestimating the size of a 40m radius lmao.

I'm rank 1 survivor, and against good killers with BBQ if you play smart you can stealth them.

Really guys, it's not that hard to avoid.

So you're saying because you, one singular man, can be stealthy, that makes it not only feasible, but viable and easily done.

Anecdotal evidence is a logical fallacy, just so you know.

You are assuming jack, because you just dismiss everything I said. I explain to you, very clearly, how to stealth against these tactics. I do it all the time, against rank 1 killers. Once you get found though stealth isn't an option, you just run. Run until you are caught, the killer gives up, or (in many cases for myself) you actually mindgame the killer and get away legit.

Spine Chill tells you killer is looking in your direction. Nurse's has a 28m range, SC has 32m range. That means that you can tell the kill is looking at you before NC actually procs, and if you stop healing when SC procs then killer may only see you healing for a second at most. They are still 28m away which with anyone but Billy/Nurse means you have just over 6 seconds to move. Again, I do it all the time you just have to understand how SC works and react appropriately.

You obviously don't play killer if you think a circle with a RADIUS of 40m is small. Doing some math, that's over 5000 square meters. That's like trying to find someone inside the entirety of Crotus Penn Asylum's main building. If you seriously can't hide from the killer inside that range than I don't know how else to help you.

Anecdotal evidence is only a thing when you are talking very specific situations. But I do it all the time in every situation. Other people have come in here saying they can do it, how is that anecdotal? Stealth is 100% completely viable in this game. You don't even need perks, just a basic understanding of how the killer sees the world. I will flat out just walk around a rock or tree right next to the killer and they won't see me because the object is breaking line of sight. And I'm not running or injured, so the killer has no idea that I'm there.

Go play killer, learn what they can see and what they can't, and you will be able to stealth just fine. If you want to live in denial you won't ever get better at the game.

@thesuicidefox said:

@powerbats said:
How many hours does he have in game, what perks/items/add ons etc. Are the people in his games competent, is he playing solo or in groups or with people who're grouped. Most of my games even with lvl 2's they're idiots, especially against a obvious camper. Get Lery's nurse hey lets feed the nurse camping the basement hooks from just out of terror radius.

I have about 400 hours on Xbox, mostly as survivor. I have almost every survivor perk on my Jake, but often just run Spine Chill, Sprint Burst, Self Care, and then whatever else I feel like. I usually bring a toolbox if I bring an item, and it would be either a yellow or green with speed and charge add-ons. Currently (and several times previously) rank 1, and I have been in PLENTY of games with full rank 1/2 players including killer. I have juked every killer in the game on almost every map. I often pip with at least a silver in Evader, Iridescent if it's a long game or I get found and chased at least twice. Also unless other survivors are giving away your position, them being stupid shouldn't stop you from being stealthy.

@No_Mither_No_Problem said:
@thesuicidefox

LOL rebuttal I don't need to. You can counter all that, except for Doc (which I said in my post). Again read what I wrote because you are just assuming my argument otherwise.

I'm not "assuming" jack. You made invalid points for three elements of Killer detection and refused to acknowledge the rest. You claim you don't "need" to rebuke them because you have no real argument is my guess.

NC + M&A then don't heal unless you KNOW where the killer is. Also Spine Chill. You can stealth killers I do it all the time dude. It's knowing how the killer sees things, line of sight, being able to predict what perks they have. You might not always pull off the stealth but I can assure you it's all beatable.

Spine Chill tellls you when the Killer is looking in your direction. If you're healing and you see it go off, and the Killer has NC, that doesn't tell you to hide. It tells you you've just been found. The best you can do now is get a head start.

Oh and if you are too close for BBQ, the killer has NO IDEA where you are. A circle with a 40m radius is huge, I could be anywhere. If you get within range and he can't see you, then you are completely free to go where you want. I get inside BBQ range then leave. Easy.

You're SERIOUSLY underestimating the size of a 40m radius lmao.

I'm rank 1 survivor, and against good killers with BBQ if you play smart you can stealth them.

Really guys, it's not that hard to avoid.

So you're saying because you, one singular man, can be stealthy, that makes it not only feasible, but viable and easily done.

Anecdotal evidence is a logical fallacy, just so you know.

You are assuming jack, because you just dismiss everything I said. I explain to you, very clearly, how to stealth against these tactics. I do it all the time, against rank 1 killers. Once you get found though stealth isn't an option, you just run. Run until you are caught, the killer gives up, or (in many cases for myself) you actually mindgame the killer and get away legit.

Spine Chill tells you killer is looking in your direction. Nurse's has a 28m range, SC has 32m range. That means that you can tell the kill is looking at you before NC actually procs, and if you stop healing when SC procs then killer may only see you healing for a second at most. They are still 28m away which with anyone but Billy/Nurse means you have just over 6 seconds to move. Again, I do it all the time you just have to understand how SC works and react appropriately.

You obviously don't play killer if you think a circle with a RADIUS of 40m is small. Doing some math, that's over 5000 square meters. That's like trying to find someone inside the entirety of Crotus Penn Asylum's main building. If you seriously can't hide from the killer inside that range than I don't know how else to help you.

Anecdotal evidence is only a thing when you are talking very specific situations. But I do it all the time in every situation. Other people have come in here saying they can do it, how is that anecdotal? Stealth is 100% completely viable in this game. You don't even need perks, just a basic understanding of how the killer sees the world. I will flat out just walk around a rock or tree right next to the killer and they won't see me because the object is breaking line of sight. And I'm not running or injured, so the killer has no idea that I'm there.

Go play killer, learn what they can see and what they can't, and you will be able to stealth just fine. If you want to live in denial you won't ever get better at the game.

I’m rank 1 wraith, don’t give me “you don’t play killer” #########, it’s stupid, and promotes splitting the player baseyou ass. Not mentioning the simple fact you’re wrong with that assumption to begin with.

@Jack11803 said:

@thesuicidefox said:

@powerbats said:
How many hours does he have in game, what perks/items/add ons etc. Are the people in his games competent, is he playing solo or in groups or with people who're grouped. Most of my games even with lvl 2's they're idiots, especially against a obvious camper. Get Lery's nurse hey lets feed the nurse camping the basement hooks from just out of terror radius.

I have about 400 hours on Xbox, mostly as survivor. I have almost every survivor perk on my Jake, but often just run Spine Chill, Sprint Burst, Self Care, and then whatever else I feel like. I usually bring a toolbox if I bring an item, and it would be either a yellow or green with speed and charge add-ons. Currently (and several times previously) rank 1, and I have been in PLENTY of games with full rank 1/2 players including killer. I have juked every killer in the game on almost every map. I often pip with at least a silver in Evader, Iridescent if it's a long game or I get found and chased at least twice. Also unless other survivors are giving away your position, them being stupid shouldn't stop you from being stealthy.

@No_Mither_No_Problem said:
@thesuicidefox

LOL rebuttal I don't need to. You can counter all that, except for Doc (which I said in my post). Again read what I wrote because you are just assuming my argument otherwise.

I'm not "assuming" jack. You made invalid points for three elements of Killer detection and refused to acknowledge the rest. You claim you don't "need" to rebuke them because you have no real argument is my guess.

NC + M&A then don't heal unless you KNOW where the killer is. Also Spine Chill. You can stealth killers I do it all the time dude. It's knowing how the killer sees things, line of sight, being able to predict what perks they have. You might not always pull off the stealth but I can assure you it's all beatable.

Spine Chill tellls you when the Killer is looking in your direction. If you're healing and you see it go off, and the Killer has NC, that doesn't tell you to hide. It tells you you've just been found. The best you can do now is get a head start.

Oh and if you are too close for BBQ, the killer has NO IDEA where you are. A circle with a 40m radius is huge, I could be anywhere. If you get within range and he can't see you, then you are completely free to go where you want. I get inside BBQ range then leave. Easy.

You're SERIOUSLY underestimating the size of a 40m radius lmao.

I'm rank 1 survivor, and against good killers with BBQ if you play smart you can stealth them.

Really guys, it's not that hard to avoid.

So you're saying because you, one singular man, can be stealthy, that makes it not only feasible, but viable and easily done.

Anecdotal evidence is a logical fallacy, just so you know.

You are assuming jack, because you just dismiss everything I said. I explain to you, very clearly, how to stealth against these tactics. I do it all the time, against rank 1 killers. Once you get found though stealth isn't an option, you just run. Run until you are caught, the killer gives up, or (in many cases for myself) you actually mindgame the killer and get away legit.

Spine Chill tells you killer is looking in your direction. Nurse's has a 28m range, SC has 32m range. That means that you can tell the kill is looking at you before NC actually procs, and if you stop healing when SC procs then killer may only see you healing for a second at most. They are still 28m away which with anyone but Billy/Nurse means you have just over 6 seconds to move. Again, I do it all the time you just have to understand how SC works and react appropriately.

You obviously don't play killer if you think a circle with a RADIUS of 40m is small. Doing some math, that's over 5000 square meters. That's like trying to find someone inside the entirety of Crotus Penn Asylum's main building. If you seriously can't hide from the killer inside that range than I don't know how else to help you.

Anecdotal evidence is only a thing when you are talking very specific situations. But I do it all the time in every situation. Other people have come in here saying they can do it, how is that anecdotal? Stealth is 100% completely viable in this game. You don't even need perks, just a basic understanding of how the killer sees the world. I will flat out just walk around a rock or tree right next to the killer and they won't see me because the object is breaking line of sight. And I'm not running or injured, so the killer has no idea that I'm there.

Go play killer, learn what they can see and what they can't, and you will be able to stealth just fine. If you want to live in denial you won't ever get better at the game.

I’m rank 1 wraith, don’t give me “you don’t play killer” #########, it’s stupid, and promotes splitting the player baseyou ass. Not mentioning the simple fact you’re wrong with that assumption to begin with.

Was I talking to you? No.

The guy I was talking too doesn't play killer because if he did he would know what the killers sees. He'd also know more about how BBQ and NC, among other killer perks, actually work. Instead he wants to ignore my advice when I flat out explain how you can stealth killers. I do it all the time, at rank 1 and below. I've completely lost killers in a chase because I get how killer's perspective works and I understand line of sight, and I know when to walk and when to run.

@Jack11803 said:

@thesuicidefox said:

@powerbats said:
How many hours does he have in game, what perks/items/add ons etc. Are the people in his games competent, is he playing solo or in groups or with people who're grouped. Most of my games even with lvl 2's they're idiots, especially against a obvious camper. Get Lery's nurse hey lets feed the nurse camping the basement hooks from just out of terror radius.

I have about 400 hours on Xbox, mostly as survivor. I have almost every survivor perk on my Jake, but often just run Spine Chill, Sprint Burst, Self Care, and then whatever else I feel like. I usually bring a toolbox if I bring an item, and it would be either a yellow or green with speed and charge add-ons. Currently (and several times previously) rank 1, and I have been in PLENTY of games with full rank 1/2 players including killer. I have juked every killer in the game on almost every map. I often pip with at least a silver in Evader, Iridescent if it's a long game or I get found and chased at least twice. Also unless other survivors are giving away your position, them being stupid shouldn't stop you from being stealthy.

@No_Mither_No_Problem said:
@thesuicidefox

LOL rebuttal I don't need to. You can counter all that, except for Doc (which I said in my post). Again read what I wrote because you are just assuming my argument otherwise.

I'm not "assuming" jack. You made invalid points for three elements of Killer detection and refused to acknowledge the rest. You claim you don't "need" to rebuke them because you have no real argument is my guess.

NC + M&A then don't heal unless you KNOW where the killer is. Also Spine Chill. You can stealth killers I do it all the time dude. It's knowing how the killer sees things, line of sight, being able to predict what perks they have. You might not always pull off the stealth but I can assure you it's all beatable.

Spine Chill tellls you when the Killer is looking in your direction. If you're healing and you see it go off, and the Killer has NC, that doesn't tell you to hide. It tells you you've just been found. The best you can do now is get a head start.

Oh and if you are too close for BBQ, the killer has NO IDEA where you are. A circle with a 40m radius is huge, I could be anywhere. If you get within range and he can't see you, then you are completely free to go where you want. I get inside BBQ range then leave. Easy.

You're SERIOUSLY underestimating the size of a 40m radius lmao.

I'm rank 1 survivor, and against good killers with BBQ if you play smart you can stealth them.

Really guys, it's not that hard to avoid.

So you're saying because you, one singular man, can be stealthy, that makes it not only feasible, but viable and easily done.

Anecdotal evidence is a logical fallacy, just so you know.

You are assuming jack, because you just dismiss everything I said. I explain to you, very clearly, how to stealth against these tactics. I do it all the time, against rank 1 killers. Once you get found though stealth isn't an option, you just run. Run until you are caught, the killer gives up, or (in many cases for myself) you actually mindgame the killer and get away legit.

Spine Chill tells you killer is looking in your direction. Nurse's has a 28m range, SC has 32m range. That means that you can tell the kill is looking at you before NC actually procs, and if you stop healing when SC procs then killer may only see you healing for a second at most. They are still 28m away which with anyone but Billy/Nurse means you have just over 6 seconds to move. Again, I do it all the time you just have to understand how SC works and react appropriately.

You obviously don't play killer if you think a circle with a RADIUS of 40m is small. Doing some math, that's over 5000 square meters. That's like trying to find someone inside the entirety of Crotus Penn Asylum's main building. If you seriously can't hide from the killer inside that range than I don't know how else to help you.

Anecdotal evidence is only a thing when you are talking very specific situations. But I do it all the time in every situation. Other people have come in here saying they can do it, how is that anecdotal? Stealth is 100% completely viable in this game. You don't even need perks, just a basic understanding of how the killer sees the world. I will flat out just walk around a rock or tree right next to the killer and they won't see me because the object is breaking line of sight. And I'm not running or injured, so the killer has no idea that I'm there.

Go play killer, learn what they can see and what they can't, and you will be able to stealth just fine. If you want to live in denial you won't ever get better at the game.

Also, you seem to like running spine chill. Well guess what, stealth should be a GOOD option without ANY perks, ALL THE TIME.

It can be done perkless. Spine Chill makes stealth a lot easier, but you don't need it. And if we are assuming things are perkless, well if the killer doesn't have BBQ, NC, or Whispers, how do you expect them to find you? I'll tell you, by being SEEN. If they see you then you can't be stealth. If you run a lot you can't be stealthy. If you don't know where the killer is you can't be stealthy. But if they can't, you don't, and you do then stealth is easy AF.

@thesuicidefox said:

@Jack11803 said:
@thesuicidefox

Dont twist it, I fully meant it should be possible sand not oppressively difficult to perform perkless against a fully decked killer

So you expect to just be amazing against a fully decked killer? GTFO dude. First it's not "oppressively difficult" it's easy. Stay out of line of sight, don't run, and know where the killer is. That's all you need to be stealthy. When you are on a gen and hear a heartbeat, against normal killers like Trapper the moment you hear it you have a little over 7 seconds to move. 7 [BAD WORD] SECONDS. If you can't walk away behind a block or something and not get found with 7 seconds I don't know how to help you. That is half a totem dude that's like forever in this game. Maybe don't stay by a 90% gen when the killer kicks it because they will be really searching the area for you. Just walk away, go somewhere else. Stealth achieved, ez pz.

I’ve only lost dozen or so survivors in my entire career, I’m a rank 1 killer... there is a definite problem.

@Jack11803 said:

@thesuicidefox said:

@Jack11803 said:
@thesuicidefox

Dont twist it, I fully meant it should be possible sand not oppressively difficult to perform perkless against a fully decked killer

So you expect to just be amazing against a fully decked killer? GTFO dude. First it's not "oppressively difficult" it's easy. Stay out of line of sight, don't run, and know where the killer is. That's all you need to be stealthy. When you are on a gen and hear a heartbeat, against normal killers like Trapper the moment you hear it you have a little over 7 seconds to move. 7 [BAD WORD] SECONDS. If you can't walk away behind a block or something and not get found with 7 seconds I don't know how to help you. That is half a totem dude that's like forever in this game. Maybe don't stay by a 90% gen when the killer kicks it because they will be really searching the area for you. Just walk away, go somewhere else. Stealth achieved, ez pz.

I’ve only lost dozen or so survivors in my entire career, I’m a rank 1 killer... there is a definite problem.

Wow, you must be such an amazing killer. It couldn't be that 95% of the survivor player base is too incompetent to understand stealth?

Also by "lost" survivors you mean in a chase? Yea THAT IS NOT A TIME FOR STEALTH. I said this multiple times now, stealth is 100% viable BEFORE YOU ARE FOUND. I will bet you any amount of money, that you have had at least 100 survivors right next to you hiding and you just walked right past them. You would never even know the real number because you didn't know they were there. A survivor could be standing behind that 1 rock you didn't check thoroughly enough.

Get your ego in check.