How effective are Killer camping/tunneling punishments?
How big of a punishment is there for killer camping/tunneling? From what i see when I'm in games where killers do that, they still manage to get like 2 to 4 times the points of the person they camp/tunnel killed, and then in the non full party group games where you get lucky enough to finish all 5 gens and not have to deal with hex no ed, they still get as many points as the top 2 that did all the gens and escaped, because you only get points for gens and survival but not for escape and altruism cause you aren't getting safe hook rescues cause they camping/tunneling.
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That's a case of the survivors not getting much rather than the killer getting too much.
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BBQ & Chili.
That is all.
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So should we advocate for some type of lenience? At minimum survivors shouldn't depip for getting 1st hook camped right away.
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Pips and ranks are not that important. They mean nothing at all. You get no rewards if you are rank 1 at reset.
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So what do you suggest then?
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I suggest a reward for what rank you're is given when the season resets.
It will give players a reason to strive for top rank, and you'll see more players because of it at higher ranks. It may (not 100% sure) even cut down on the deranking, you never know.
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Tbh the root issue there is the deeply flawed ranking system in the first place. Depips from being camped is just a side effect of it.
If I were to suggest something to help in the interim though, give a survivor points towards a safety pip if they go into second stage from first, or if they go down to an unsafe unhook. This also helps with farming and being abandoned on the hook by your team.
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There's no BP punishment for camping or tunneling, the punishment is in rank emblems.
If killers camp they degrade their chaser emblem and lose the game if survivors know what there doing and do gens.
If a killer chases one guy all game their gatekeeper and malicious emblem wont ever be higher than a bronze and they will lose the game because survivors will just finish all the gens while the killer chases one guy for 10 mins.
I think the punishments are very effective because everytime rank reset happens I run into a hundred times more camping and tunneling than I do on my normal rank. Soon as I get near my normal higher rank it drops off sharply, so for me the system is doing what it should and keeping bad killers at the lower ranks.
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i have friends that usually avg around rank 1 to 4 during a season and because of that i run into killers level 5 to 10 that camp and tunnel. Majority come from survivors who juke them well or have them chase for a minute. But a large percentage is also the other. Emblem punishments don't matter. Killer can still get good bloodpoints and pip which is what matters. They shouldnt get that much
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Camping only works if the rest of the teammates are dumb enough to let it work. If a killer fully camps a 1st hook then you have time to do 3 gens (if everyone goes and does 1) The killer loses points for being near a hooked survivor if there aren't other survivors in range. So they will not pip if they camp unless other survivors play dumb
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The reason he didn't lose a ton of points was because there was at least one survivor within the hook radius. If there wasn't, he would've lost a lot of points. IE he stuck around because he knew someone was there and he was right (or just wanted to be a dick, but at least one person on your team let him get away with it). Also means you didn't punish his camping by doing gens.
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Do gens when the Killer is camping.
Any solution that makes it so a Survivor being camped is unlikely to actually be sacraficed is guaranteed to be exploitable in some way by survivors. The best that can be done (even given hypothetical deliberate mechanical countermeasures against camping) is making it so that camping will lead to a 1k against competent survivors.
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Killers camp because it works, survivors cannot let their friends be and rewards camping by trying to save their friends.
Tunneling works because getting a survivor out of the game fast is currently the best strategy to slow the game down.
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Its a "Strat"
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I think some killers are more interested in feeling good about themselves and getting the kills than rank/bloodpoints.
Camping especially will mean they will not pip and not get as much BP, but hey they got their kill, and 1 less survivor doing gens etc.
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If survivors are not braindead the game ends in 4-5 minutes if killer camps or tunnels hard.
But most of them just must to try and save someone, often wasting way more pallets than needed in the process, giving away free hits and not doing gens. Survivors make it happen, not killers.
@Horus if killer sees that 2 other survivors are overaltruistic in stupid way then yes, it is very efficient strat.
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Tunneling is no worse than Gen Rushing. Change my mind
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@ba_tetsuo It is literally only objective in game to do gens, what do you expect man?
Survivors have to do gens, killer can camp or tunnel but doesn't have to. That's the difference.
Of course by doing gens efficiently (1 person per gen) and ignoring totems they deny themselves tons of points. 1250 solo gen, more than 3000 for everyone working together, per gen.
Smart stealth is also more efficient than looping, but then you have no boldness points.
Survivors are in control most of the time and if they refuse to punish camping or tunneling killer by just leaving him with 1kill, almost no points and assured depip its on them. As long as it works because of survivors misplays the camping and tunneling will be there.
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Survivors can swap generators every 25% too, yet theyre tunneling those generators so hard.
Camping works until survivors stop rewarding it. And by the amount of camping complains this will not happen soon.
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@HazeHound the killers only objective is to kill survivors though. Much like survivors only objective is generators.
Survivors often "camp" and "tunnel" a generator in the same way killers "camp" and "tunnel" survivors. If survivors didn't then perks like Surveillance would not be effective even margionally.
Not defending killers "camping" or "tunneling" here. Just saying, when examined closely, "gen rushing" and "tunneling" are pretty much the same as @ba_tetsuo was saying.
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@HazeHound I'm a killer main too and I don't count teabagging, flashlights, "gen rushing", or "camping" as toxic either. My intent wasn't to label anything as toxic. They are all tools and strategies that, in my opinion anyway, are used by both sides.
People just tend to ignore that survivors "camp" and "tunnel" gens (their only objective) just as some killers do survivors (their only objective).
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You could 75% each gen before you finish any. There are 7 gens in the game. You don't have to focus one down before moving on to the next.
Survivors are the only objective killers have. Focusing one is more efficient than spreading their attention around, especially if the other 3 are overly altruistic.
Also, survivors have a secondary objective. Totems. This would also cut down on the NOED complaints.
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Survivors camp hooks and gens so it goes both ways. If I see you behind the bush next to the person I just hooked, I don't see anyone else with BBQ and Chili, or if I turn my back and get not 3 meters and my hook just got saved, I'm pitching my tent with no remorse. It's called using altruism against them. You turn games around by slowing it down that way. That's not even addressing hook rushes with the rest of the team.
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If you take away the only incentive to play killer (receiving more BP then survivors) why would anyone play killer?... majority knows that it's frustrating AF when you go against SWF and it almost feels rigged when the gends get done in less then 4mins.......
A camping killer doesn't get much BP and if the killer gets 2-3 kills then that's on you guys for feeding the killer if they're camping.......... completing gens> feeding a camper
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So basically all im seeing is fk the guy that got caught in the beginning posts. Lol that's awesome. I didnt say anything about oh just gen rush and 3 have a chance to get out excluding not having to deal with hex no ed. I just said the survivor that gets 1st hook camped just gets fked but the killer. I just think the killer should get punished just as much as him
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Why should the killer be punished because the survivor failed?
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It's literally impossible to go a full game without 1 survivor being seen all game. How does the survivor fail if the game is designed for a killer to majority succeed in a chase? The survivor doesn't fail cause he gets hook camped. That's not his fault for getting camped. That's trash ish
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So in your opinion, a survivor doesn't fail if he fails at stealth and can't win a chase? Alright, so what does constitute failure on the survivor side, in your opinion?
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Tell me when 4 survivors have gone a complete game without being seen? Cause you are trying to pick and choose your way to an easy win ignoring my main point which you know what i'm saying. You're ok with the survivor getting cucked by the killer that refuses to participate in normal gameplay by camping a survivor hooked. Stop the bs alternative fact deflecting
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Camping to death is kinda stupid on 1st hook but tunneling just makes sense.
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You're the one pushing alternative facts by claiming that a survivor failing at stealth and losing a chase does not actually constitute failure. I merely wanted you to tell me what, then, constitutes failure for the survivors in your eyes, if it's not the inability to stay alive.
As for me, I'm not OK with the idea that either side should be punished for the other's mistakes. Saying that killers should be punished for killing a survivor in a particular way after that survivor ######### up is like saying survivors who win chases in a certain way should be punished.
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To be fair, a good killer will find you and down you eventually.
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That has no bearing on the issue at hand.
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It does as far as the survivor failing or not. You're right that they failed to get away or hide. But is it a failure if you're not meant to be able to do something? If you can't be reasonably expected to do something did you fail at that point?
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Yea i agree. the tunneling part is like obvious but like not something where you just like move 10 meters away and watch the hook and them chase the injured is weak and trash. But like if you go across map and then come back and find the injured survivor that was just hooked, there are no complaints there
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I've had the camping tunnel cost me a pip before. Fun part about it was that I thought there was someone near the hook, since they were pushing the hook pretty hard for a bit. I wish the camping penalty would notice if someone was near the hook, but left, giving the killer more time to look around the area to be sure no ones there.
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As effective as survivors make them. If survivors reward camping/tunneling killer by swarming them then it's not punished at all but rather rewarder.
Way you punish these killers is by beiing smart survivor who always predicts the worst outcome. In other words you do only gens until hooked survivor is very near death or you are 100% that killer left the hook and it's safe to go for them.
Unfortunately for you most of survivor player base isn't that smart and rather demands from devs to impliment passive punishemts for legit killler playstyles rather then learning how to git gud themselfs.
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I wish killers would derank much more easily.
I derank on survivor so much and it's so hard to pip. Whereas as killer...I don't get any kills and I still safety pip...
The whole point of a killer is to kill....what's the point of rewarding me for not securing any kills?
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Killers gain BP faster than survivors due to a mismatch balance in item economy. While survivors can bring and keep items (and find items in a trial) the killer must always buy more after a match. For this reason killers gain BP faster than survivors to help even the disparity in economy.
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Tunneling punishment?are u srsly? :D Maybe killer must open gates for you?Play stealth if u not want be on hook :D
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I think you think by tunneling i mean walking across map and then coming back and finding the unhooked survivor. But as i said above that is not a complaint. By tunneling i just mean camping. Just staying in close proximity waiting for an unhook not doing anything just to catch the survivor that got unhooked.
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Play stealth? lol oh ok so you 1 of them survivors that just sits on the outside of the map all game and waits for everyone to die or them to do everything and then try to escape? lol ok
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@ba_tetsuo If you tunnel smart survivors will just genrush you in 3 minutes. I agree that removing one person asap is super helpful, but applying constant pressure is even more effective. That's why Billy is so valued
@thrawn3054 there are 5 maps, on which you can waste so much killers time with balanced landing its just stupid. If it aint nurse or trapper and you had luck with windows you are basically untouchable xD.
@23flash well if there are 3gens or 99%gen or overly altruistic survivors very close by its the most efficient play to abuse in many cases. Many survivors just refuse to do gens.
In general i try to play 'fair' but if survivors 3gen themselves or are altruistic in a stupid way i am abusing their mistakes.
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That's not stealth, that's waiting for everyone else to die. You can repair generators and unhook people while playing stealthily.
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So you stan with the f the guy that got camped for a whole hook? Also f the bloodpoints. You realize you only get points for gens and survival if you lucky. so you lose out on 2 whole emblems of points and in that type of game would leave with an ending score of like 10k if you're lucky. the killer would get like 10k as well. So what type of nonsense is that?
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Agreed. Killers know that camping will usually distract other survivors from doing objectives, thereby slowing the game down. Although its unfun for everyone and will likely punish their score.
@Elegant said:
Camping only works if the rest of the teammates are dumb enough to let it work. If a killer fully camps a 1st hook then you have time to do 3 gens (if everyone goes and does 1).This statement is also true.
So the counter to camping is to be aware that a survivor is being camped and to make a good judgement call: knowing when to wait for an opportunity to hook-save or go off and do gens. This is were perks like bond and kindred come into play. SWF with voice comms also helps, which is another advantage of SWF over solo play.
Perhaps the solution is to introduce game mechanics that discourage camping? Such as a visual and audio alert when a killer stays close to a hooked survivor for too long - similar to the swirling crows around stationary players. New perks could be added, such as one that shows the killer's aura within 10 meters of a hooked survivor, if the killer stays near the hook too long (the perk being used by an non-hooked survivor, like a reverse kindred).
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The problem is, if you don't camp or tunnel a generator, all of its progress can be lost just by the killer kicking it. Once a survivor is hooked, that's it, it's indelible.
If Gens couldn't regress, maybe survivors wouldn't tunnel gens.
The punishment is actually really big, but it requires a coordinated, or at least a smart, group of survivors to do it.
If survivors jump on gens when the killer camps, and the one on hook doesn't DC, 3 gens will be done around the time the survivor dies, assuming no other perks mess things up (like Ruin).
Killer has lost half the game already at that point for just one kill.
Of course, this doesn't make the hooked survivor feel any better about it.
Post edited by Mochan on0 -
What if the time it takes for a survivor to die on a hook is increased the closer a killer is to the hook. If you hook a survivor and hangout next to the survivor the survivor will die slowly. Or an alternative is something similar to decisive strike, as the survivor's time is running out a new second meter is filling up if the killer is close. When this new meter is filled the survivor gets a difficult skill check, sort of a last chance to jump from the hook if they make the skill check. The killer would be stunned for 3 seconds and the survivor has a chance to get away. Being camped is the worst. When it happens two or three games in a row it destroys the fun especially when you are waiting 5 minutes in a lobby to get to even play the game each and every game.
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Generator regression didn't use to be a thing. Survivors still tunneled and camped generators.
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