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DBD not designed around SWF
Dead by daylight was designed with solo survivors in mind, not coordinated teams with voice chat providing real-time updates on everything the killer does.
Why is this still going on in the current state it is?
Why hasn't an extra gen been added for SWF teams? Why haven't killers gotten a 5th perk slot? Why haven't solo players been given information to balance the field & killers buffed to compensate? Why hasn't this been addressed AT ALL?
And why is trapper still in the state he is, especially with the gatekeeper emblem?
What the hell are the devs doing? Why are so many things still so screwed up?
Comments
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No need to Do anything. Live with that.
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Gen rush is a problem but adding another gen for SWF wouldn't be the way to go. Killers don't need a 5th perk slot.
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You’re not saying anything new but I agree, the devs should figure out what to base the balance around.
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I agree with the fact the game wasn't made for SWF, but adding a 5th perk slot would be broken af, I mean, could you imagine a killer with Enduring, Spirit Fury, BBQ, Ruin, and Noed? And that's just one combo. Also, adding another gen would be unfair as well since it creates more work for people who just want too play together. A better option IMO is adding a Quick Match system which allows 3-4 SWF groups, and a Ranked system which only allows 2 man SWF or solo.
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Devs always had SWF in mind - so youre both wrong on that.
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Limit SWF to only duos. Fixes everything.
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This isnt bad
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do you guys not have more than one friend
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There should never be a punishment for wanting to play with friends.
Give an incentive for killers/solo survivors to play with SWFs instead. Add a lobby indicator and a BP reward for playing with them.
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Problem is, SWF is an important part of the game you like it or not, they are one of the thing that keep this game alive because to many suvivor mains solo has become either unplayable or way too boring
In my opinion the solution is not punishing SWF but encouraging solo gameplay by adding more interesting mechanics for them, say for example, secondary objectives.
I mean, just accept them, if they insist on tryharding and bringing flashlights and insta-heals just dodge them or equip your most toxic build to counter them back. Adapting wont hurt anybody.
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Most SWF play super altruistic, if you’re in a chase or got a hook...chances are 2 of them are not on gens, they’re preparing a bodyblock rescue in the event that you’re camping/tunneling. That means typically 1 survivor (sometimes none) is working gens...I’ll take that anyday as a killer, keep SWF the way it is.
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My only real problem with SWF is they often use external communication (voice chat), basically getting like 10+ free perks that solo survivors have to use a perk slot for. Such as:
Bond, Empathy, Deja Vu, Alert, Aftercare, Kindred, Detective's Hunch, Spine Chill, Premonition, Object of Obsession, Open-Handed (they don't get the exact same effects as the perks but people can tell each other where gens/chests/totems/traps/each other/the killer are) and it can also counter Knock Out and Blindness
That is undeniably an advantage without a doubt. Even if voice chat doesn't have the same level of power as the perks listed, it is still more information than solo survivors would get without using those perks
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I always go try hard mode then. Ebony mory etc. Actually I'm getting used to nurse because of this groups.
Swf can be balanced... Just remove some pallets or windows for every swf member and easy...
I'm always reading "people shouldn't get punished for playing with their friends. Y not?
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@Jacoby2041 I shouldn't have to say this. But why are you listing Killer tracking perks? Voice chat doesn't give your team information that no one has. And that means that on your list:
- Alert
- Dejavu
- Detectives Hunch
- Spine chill
- Premonition
- Object of obsession
Are in no way replaced by VC
This cannot be understated and is a BIG deal. In fact one of the big problems with object of obsession was using it in combination WITH SWF in order to get a ton of information. This is precisely because VC needs you to get the initial information in the first place in order for it to work.
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@Mänzel You shouldn't punish people for playing with their friends because its an inherently flawed approach.
It's not a matter of if it's worth it, because it simply doesn't solve the problem in the first place.
Hardcore players who want to take advantage of VC will just lobby dodge until they que with their friends anyways.
Casual players who just want to play with their friends will just play a different game that doesn't punish them for trying to have fun.
Even if you stop lobby dodging somehow it is entirely possible for genuinely solo survivors to get VC by posting a Discord link in the pregame chat.
And even if you remove the pregame chat they can send the link directly through steam
Right now no one does these things because there is no point. However back before SWF was a thing in the first place people used all of these techniques in order to use VC or play with friends.
No to mention. Why create a feature on the main menu and then explicitly discourage people from using it?
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Everyone should just have VC and then buff killers accordingly. Every game that incorporates team play has this function.
There's no point in fussing over the rest of it.
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Just gonna throw this here.
For the people who said they always planned SWF, this video directly contradicts that. As Cote states, the game was always balanced around the lack of communication and lack of information.
When you play with voice comms, you break the balance.
@Visionmaker no, I don't want voice chat in this game. Part of the reason I bought it Day 1 was the appeal of playing solo, and everyone else was on the same field as me. This game would need a complete rehauling from the ground up to fix this issue. Anything else is just a bandaid fix. This is why we need two queues.
This game will never be balanced until SWF is addressed.
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It's been three years. Let it go.
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Not happening buddy.
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Oh cool, so when I play solo and get queued up with SWF, I get to have less windows and pallets in my game. Perfectly reasonable suggestion. /s
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I understand you. I play for 5-6 weeks now and I have got the feeling, that this games does something with you... Or more with me..
I dunno, but I'm getting super super salty when 4 see this teams with sometimes 3 redranks and 1 low level friend (I'm rank 10-11). They usually wanna bully me and teabag the... Out of me. Ofc after the game there comes a git gud etc. This from people with 3k hours in that game compared to my 180...
This was the moment I decided to make swf a hard life. Simply imbalanced simply aids. I can't see their ranks before the game, so I decide to always throw out everything I can when I face an swf. Just in case it's a group like this...
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Yes, because you are a team and you team has got the advantage you also indirectly profit from...
You even didn't give a real reason y this is bad...
Less pallets and windows finally just says, that you have got less time to finish the game. So basicly this is OK I think, because a team with 3 swf will potentially finish the objectives faster...
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I didn't know I profited by getting farmed by the 3 others for WGLF stacks and then they let me die.
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And that's a fail. Fails will be punished. That's nothing you should balance around.
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No. Players shouldn’t be punished for playing with friends.
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And why? I think this argument comes over and over, but never a reason why....
And it's not a punish. It's an adjustment in balance..
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For one thing not every swf is on vc. You’re punishing people not doing swf by doing this.
Not to mention how these “punishments” would likely make top tier killers OP.
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The roblem is. That as long as vc is a thing people can do this should be balanced around this. Basicly a game should always be balanced around the best what is possible. Otherwise people will always dominate who do this.
When you decide to not go vc you simply decide to take the disadvantage. Why should a game be balanced about people who dont want to use theire potential...
This will always result in people who just dominate the game by simply using it...
So in my opinion this is a huge issue. You simply can't balance a game around both things.
Unless you say there would be 2 q's. 1 for swf and 1 for solo. But that would result in swf not finding killers to play against...
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fairly certain the devs (i think it was mclean?) have explicitly stated that SWF was always going to be part of the game, they just had to decide which mode (SWF or KYF) to put in first, and KYF was chosen. no amount of theorizing really matters at this point. it was always going to be in the game
the difference between 4 good survivors and 4 good survivors in voice chat is minimal. short of OoO use in a group, swf doesn't really matter
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I would beg to differ.
The added communications causes a boosting factor that further devalues the already problematic ranking system. Survivors that don't belong in certain ranks manage to get there by getting additional information.
Also, I would disagree that it doesn't make a difference. Any kind of extra information will always benefit a player that isn't receiving any at all. Of course if you get 4 pros that are all solos that understand the basic gameplan, it won't matter as much in terms of who wins or not. But to say that giving them more information wouldn't make their game easier is a little strange.
And if you wanna bring up stuff that is "always meant to be in the game" then I'll point out that later on in the roadmap, they plan to make some kind of meaningful addition to Ranked games in order to, presumably, push players to improve their gameplay for cosmetic items.
I would also like to point out that I believe early on the forums around when SWF was put in, someone mentioned they planned to make it balanced somehow, but put it in due to player demand and never got the ability to balance it.
So sooner or later, they are going to have to address this SWF issue regardless of what anyone's stance on this is.
So it's better to find solutions sooner.
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And makes the game lose many players. Great idea LOL
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The incentive is already there as the killer is much stronger then a survivor.
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A Survivor yes. Not four survivors with great communication & coordination
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Alright so you have two groups of SWFs, the casual players wanting to have a good laugh which I play all the time and the try hard groups with the goal to win and bully the killer as much as possible.
When you go against teams of optimal survivors all in voice channel then they are the power role. Not sure if you've heard of the depip squad but they show cased it pretty nicely how an optimal SWF groups can almost guarantee the win against killers at rank 1.
Although it's rare for me to run into a try hard squad who tries to bully, it can happen and it's a nightmare to play against. With the amount of second chance perks, speed at which the gens can be completed, and some absurd tiles on the map, playing survivor isn't really hard.
You know the game is the wrong way round when I need to play survivor to relieve stress from killer games.
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They haven't added extra difficulty (aka punishing people for playing with friends) because that'd be absolutely idiotic. Casual players get annoyed, the ~4man SWAT team depip squads~ just dodge lobbies to get eachother like people did pre-SWF and screw queue times - everybody loses. Sure you could punish lobby dodging or something, but even without SWF I doubt 4 red rank survivors with toolboxes is a very tempting match for killers to go into, because if they did that it'd most likely impact killers as well.
They have straight up said they're aiming to go for the buff solos -> buff killers that need it route, so I can agree with that one.
But if you desperately want added difficulty (punishment) to SWF or something then honestly just quit the game already as it ain't happening. That's not the path the devs are going, and it would be absurd of them to do. So wasting emotional energy on getting mad about it when this isn't an esports-oriented game chasing "perfect balance" is just a complete waste of time and you should just play something else.
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And because one of the groups are good nobody should be able to play together ?
Not going to happen. Devs will never remove SWF as it would probably kill DBD and make it generate less income than they require to maintain the team they have now and would have to lay off people and then u get longer waits between content and bug fixes wich makes even more players leave and... yeah u get it.
Just play survivor then if that is less stress free then killer.
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And the casual playerbase vastly outnumber those tryhard groups. Killing SWF is removing a large part of the casual players from the game as they will find something else the play together.
So SWF will never get removed, just play survivor if killer causes you stress.
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Punishing people for playing with their friends is dumb. Not every SWF is a highly optimal Squad. You will have a lot of Casuals. And I am pretty sure that often enough Killers are thinking that they are going against a 4 man SWF, when they play vs 4 Solos.
DBD can never be really balanced.
SWF - Solos
Good Killers (Spirit, Nurse, Billy) - Bad Killers (Trapper, Doc)
RNG on Maps
What could help would be buffing Survivors to a point that all Information that a SWF has, will be given to Solos. E.g. knowing who the Killer is during the Loading Screen. This is given to new players and when first vsing a new Killer. A 4 man SWF basically right at the start knows who the Killer is. A Solo will only know it when he saw it.
But giving all the information to Solos (Which Killer, Totem Counter, whatever) so that SWF do not gain any Extra Information, would allow to buff Killers.
Other than that, simply enjoy the game. Not all games can be won, and I think that the DBD Community is too entitled, Killers expect constant 4Ks, while Survivors expect constant Escapes. And this is not possible.
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Oh I'm not advocating for the removal of SWFs, I have a blast playing it with friends casually. Having a drunk night screaming with friends, being weird, getting amazing plays while drunk is just the most recent highlight I've had. I've recently learned that i can only get flashlight saves while Im drunk and sober I never get them, ever.
My point to you was the survivors are the power role when playing optimally as a SWF group.
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i mean i won't say 4 people communicating doesn't make the game a little easier, but i would say that the overall impact it has on the game is dramatically overblown. even knowing where the killer is at all times doesn't really help you unless you're someone who urban evades away and hides in advance. people being in a swf group only really comes into play when it comes to altruism, and that is something the killer can exploit pretty well
bad players in a swf don't benefit much from communication, and good players in a swf don't need it anyway. a lot of killers just use it as a scapegoat for why they lose (see: every time i've been accused of being in a swf when i'm solo queueing)
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Give all players the perks SWF gets innately like Kindred etc and buff the killers as well as fixing the perks and add ons that SWF breaks. Then all of the people who want to play with friends can without getting free perks and breaking killer perks like knock out.
Knock Out, Blindness in general, Black Box, and several other killer perks and add ons are destroyed by SWF
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As long as mobility killers can screw up any survivor party there is no need to restrict SWF.
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I will agree with your last sentiment.
Had one Killer tell us we were the most coordinated team he'd seen all day. We were all 4 solo randoms.
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I think if they would base the matchmaking on the lowest rank survivor (highest? the red/purple rank always looking for an easy game) maybe it would balance out. I am so tired of being mid green rank (I'm a casual player with limited time and I'm also old) and facing red/purple ranks with the one bottom green/yellow rank that made the lobby for them.
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It's supposed to average out. When someone who's 15 makes a lobby with someone who is 5, it's supposed to search for around Rank 10.
You also gotta consider as the wait time increases, the game opens up to more ranks so that you'll get a game.
Or it's just easier to say matchmaking is pretty funky.
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I can assure you that me being rank 12 that I shouldn't face two rank 5's, a rank 8 and a rank 15 if they made the matchmaker start searching based on the 5's. Even when I am rank 10 it shouldn't balance out like that.
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Why not just add a debuff for every swf member on the team? Slow actions, increase skill checks, or add more time needed on gens.
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i've not really seen survive with friends as a huge problem as it is mostly based off of skill and no matter what if you have 100-200 hours in game and go against a survivor who has over 1k hours in game yea you might get looped into eternity. again i've gone against numerous swf and quite frankly i'd say about 80% of them play like fools being overly altruistic and such. i don't feel it's making the game super unbalanced as everyone thinks things that are are bigger issues like windows not blocking off after a survivor vaults 3 times, bugged perks, bugged noises, etc...
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@NuclearBurrito I didn't say they were 100% replaced, I was meaning the need for them is reduced with VC. You don't need to detect the killer as much if your teammates can just tell you where he is, same with any object such as totems and generators. No, VC doesn't have the same effects as those perks but people can give each other information using VC which normally you'd only be able to get using those perks or by seeing whatever you are looking for. For example, someone with VC can be like "the killer just came out of the basement" or "hey, there's a hex in the killer shack, I can't get it because I'm being chased" or "I didn't loot the chest in X building if you want to get it" a solo survivor can't do that, they have to use perks for it.
They can even say things like "I dropped an item at X location" or "I think the killer has X perk because they did X thing" which are things you can't find out at all with currently existing perks unless you are the person who directly did/witnessed those things
And VC counters Knock Out because KO prevents people from seeing slugged survivors, but they can just tell each other where they are using VC, meaning they will know their location even with the perk, making the perk useless because that's the entire purpose of the perk. I wonder if you even know what this perk is considering you called it a "tracking perk" when it is not a tracking perk, it is a denial of information perk. The status effect "Blindness" also falls into this category, but because VC can be used to relay information, it makes Blindness far less effective or even useless because people can tell the blinded person where something is even if the person would otherwise have to find it themselves.
And like I said, even though VC may not do quite the same things as some of those perks, or be quite as powerful as some of those perks, it is still a definite advantage compared to not having it, and even if it can't entirely replace those perks it can still greatly reduce the need for them. I doubt you'd be able to convince anyone otherwise of that basic fact (that having VC is better than not having VC) unless they have no idea what they are talking about.
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I like how this got so many downvotes despite being a factual statement confirmed by the devs more than once.
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