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How to Change Noed (So It Won't Reward Bad Players As Much)
No One Escapes Death aka Noed is a perk that allows bad players to do well. You can usually tell when someone runs Noed because they use the Killer's power poorly and apply zero gen pressure whatsoever. The Devs buffed this perk for god knows what reason awhile back so all tiers give instadowns, and it gives a 2/3/4% speed boost after the gens are done. It rewards bad players, and anyone who's played the game a lot knows that. My proposed change is get rid of the instadown entirely. Then nerf the speed boost to 2/2.5/3% and give the Killer an alert when someone touches an exit (like the killer instinct that Ghostface gets when he's un-stealthed or the wall hacks Legion has). The idea is its a perk that should give the player basically a guaranteed down before the exits are open, but not a basically guaranteed massacre, and its up to the player to capitalize afterwards. It could also be well paired with Blood Warden. I like the idea of trying to keep this perk in the game, so I thought of this rework for it, because as it is now it rewards bad players. Any other possible solutions, other then removing it?
EDIT: I didn't make this discussion because I thought Noed is OP, and uncounterable, I made it because its a perk that rewards bad players and that really shouldn't be in the game, so I want to change it so you get one down, (by the time the exits are open) and then players have to use their skills as killers, and their killers power to capitalize on this momentum to benefit more from it.
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I have another idea, the perk stays the way it is but there's a catch, the perk similar to thrill of the hunt is powered by totems, the more totems cleansed the weaker it is. Every totem gives you a token, each token increases the time of your NOED, a totem equals into 5/10/15 seconds of time. The tiers will change how much time a totem gives you and still also increases the speed boost you receive.
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"apply zero gen pressure whatsoever" Or they get genrushed.
"The Devs buffed this perk for god knows what reason awhile back so all tiers give instadowns," For reasons known. The tier 1 and 2 were basically useless and waste of a perk slot.
"3/4/5% speed boost" It's 2/3/4% actually
"The idea is its a perk that should give the player basically a guaranteed down before the exits are open" (your change) how exactly does "knowing someone is on the door" give you a guaranteed kill UNLESS its EGC? And how would that pair with BW? Maybe with Remember Me but still if feels really uneccessery to have 2 endgame perks that only work on exit gate being closed.
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Feel free to give that a read.
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Thanks for the corrections. Idk if you were being helpful or trying to make me look dumb but either way thx. As for what you were saying how does it gives you one down? The idea was that the killer is still faster and a lot harder to loop, and gets a little bit of information so they can find one survivor have a quick chase and down them. Maybe for what I'm trying to meet the speed boost should stay the same? I was thinking it could be all tiers you're 4% faster, but you only see an alert (when someone touches an exit) for 2/3/4 seconds. It would go well with Blood Warden because if the idea is that "you get a guaranteed down" then you can hook that person, and no one can leave (unless the exits aren't open yet obviously). It would go well with Remember Me too of course.
@Jdsgames I have a problem that Noed carries bad killers, I'm just thinking of a rework that would lower the amount of bad killers reaching higher ranks so they can better like everyone else. I read the post, and I agree Noed is useless if everyone cleanses totems, therefore it survives from survivors laziness and that's fine.
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@su11yboy "As for what you were saying how does it gives you one down?" That's not what i said. I was responding to one of your points in OP
"The idea is its a perk that should give the player basically a guaranteed down before the exits are open, but not a basically guaranteed massacre"
and response: "how exactly does "knowing someone is on the door" give you a guaranteed kill UNLESS its EGC?"
Then again preventing them from openning a gate means they won't open the door. Aka BW won't open. (oh btw are we talking about high ranks, mid ranks or low ranks?) Current NOED gives peeps fear "should i go in and risk it or just leave". Would it go well with Remember Me? Yes. But it again got nerfed recently.
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@Milo You said "how exactly does 'knowing someone is on the door' give you a guaranteed kill UNLESS its EGC?" (you literally wrote that in both your comments) so I answered that question after I said "As for what you were saying how does it gives you one down?"
I'm going mostly over red ranks. If we're talking low ranks then you are correct, not the best pairing with BW. In high ranks there are two exits, 2+ survivors (if not EGC) and 2 exits so if the killer finds one person there's definitely another survivor on a different exit, or already replacing the survivor who got caught. The killer can give up and go after the ones who're now on the exit, or continue the chase, it's their decision. They could run it by itself, with BW, Remember Me, or both. But this was missing the point. I created this discussion not because I thought Noed was OP, (I'm sorry if I conveyed that, or said that). My problem with it is bad killers reach ranks higher then they should be and do well because of Noed. I tried to think of rework for Noed so that after the gens are done, it gives you an easy down right off the bat, but then (assuming the exits are open by now) the killer now has to capitalize on this easy down with their skills to benefit from it. Maybe my idea was horrible for reaching this goal, that's why I created this discussion, see if anyone liked my rework idea or had a better one.
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"Rewards bad players." Meaningless statement. NOES gives the exact same benefit to a good killer as to a bad killer, once conditions are met. You're shooting at a mediocre, easily counterable, not very strong perk. And you're doing it by parroting the same stupid thing that has been said thousands of times. NOED "rewards bad killers" looks like an argument, but in reality, it's just a cheap rhetoric that makes people who say it feel smart, but in fact, it's 100% false.
Sorry man, I mean no offense, but literally ALL "nerf NOED" themed discussions are just poorly concealed expressions of frustration, by players who got sacrificed because of it.
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I don't have a problem dying to Noed actually, and I can understand what you're coming from. I get tunneled, facecamped, or knocked from my team's incompetency, but it's just a game so I don't get too frustrated about it. People who use Noed are generally bad at the game because it's a strong end game perk so they don't have any reason to slow gens down, and they don't. I've never played a single decent killer and then seen they had Noed. I've literally seen a killer get only 3 downs all game and they were all to Noed, so they got a 3K, so its definitely not 100% false. People who use it usually use the killers power wrong/or not at all if it's a harder power to use and are generally bad. I respect your opinion, and I disagree. Noed carries bad killer players, just like DS carried bad survivors. I also don't want o necessarily "nerf Noed" I want to make it so it's strong, but more challenging to use so, like I said bad killers can get better from using it, or at the very least not get carried just from one perk. Ruin for example is slightly stronger then Noed (IMO), but it takes a lot more skill to reap its benefits because if you don't know how to use the killer you won't be able to get downs efficiently. With Noed it doesn't matter if you know how to use the killer's power you can just M1 them once and you get an easy hook.
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NOED doesn't "reward bad plays on the killer's side". It merely punishes survivors for being complacent and lazy. If you die because of NOED, that's on you and your team.
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@su11yboy I generally strive to make balanced decisions. However, in reality when in most cases by the time you actually get someone down other than playing a top tier killer at least two gens have been popped and a third is likely on the way. By the games logic of a 4v1.
5 Generators, 4 Survivors, 1 Killer. Without 'zzzz slugging' you essentially have 3 survivors on objective 1 down. 2/3 gens completed.
3/2 Generators, 1 hooked survivor, 1 rescue survivor, 2 Survivors on gens, and 1 killer. At this point even looking at the best scenario you are again looking to be at EGC or 1 remaining gen by the time you get another survivor down without 'zzzz slugging.' At this point if you didn't slug and tried to play fair or for fun you get rewarded with a fat loss. Playing the 'supposed' way to play as killer is not viable. Unless you are using higher tier killers which are not fun to play as because in many cases they are mindless to be played as once you get used to their power.
This is generally the reason why you see slugging and tunneling. You are not rewarded as a killer fairly for kicking gens without a perk. Your 2 second kick of gen starts regression which can be taken away by not even a complete start gen animation of a survivor. Simply put without PGTW or similar perks gens are not worth stopping. This is why you see them frequently in your games as well as Ruin.
NOED exists as a band-aid for that problem. You are rewarded for survivors not doing totems not because you are a bad killer. The game expects you to find these totems that is why they are in the game. However, in many cases they are not prioritized which is what rewards NOED.
Essentially looking at the logic above gens can be completed in roughly two and a half sets of 80 seconds since multiple gens can be done at the same time. That is 4 minutes tops if played optimally. This is impossible for most killers to get even on their best days unless the SURVIVORS make mistakes. The killer should be the power role not please survivors make a mistake so the game lasts a bit longer. As a killer you are heavily rewarded for playing tunnel/slugger and that is the games design nothing more.
This as well does not even consider toolboxes, med-kits, (Instas or BNPS), a good 4-man solo team or a god-tier SWF team on discord telling each other every moment that is happening across the map. This is just pure base-game possibility. There is no reason all killers should not be base 115% speed and their powers adjusted. The main issue with nerfing survivors to benefit lower tier killers is any slightly viable option becomes op. The power range between the powers of killers is the main problem. Ie Nurse is way more viable than pig for example. Buffing game-play around pig makes nurse even more viable which is a problem as well.
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You also forgot to mention while buffing the lower tiers of the perks they took away the speed cool-down on successful/unsuccessful hits from the top tier of the perk. Making NOED even less powerful.
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Correction to several corrections: while you're right that NOED doesn't inherently reward bad plays on the killer's side, it does run a significant risk of doing so. Good killers can use it too, but the bad ones are the problem - same with DS or MoM, things that some bad survivors can pick up too early to bother developing the skills to function without them.
Crutch/Meta perks develop certain playstyles in some players on both sides of the trial, and there's a large enough contingent of players that don't bother branching out from 'what works' that they end up ill-fit for the scenarios their expectations don't match.
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Please go up and read my previous post that is quoted. This rewards Killers due to Survivor laziness. It doesn't reward good/bad killers it rewards upon survivors not doing the 'secondary objective' of totems.
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If the killer is bad there's honestly no reason to not cleanse totems since you're not short on time. Each survivor just need an average of 1.25 totems cleansed per match, it's really not a big deal.
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Lol go destroy totem it's your fault not the killer
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Or how about you stop being a lazy piece of ######### and start cleansing totem instead of complaining that the killer is being reward because you are ignoring your secondary objectif
If the killer is SO BAD you would have plenty of time to hunt and destroy every single totem before powering the gate.
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I'd love to see NOED restored to its old glory, when it was a permanently on buff.
..or we could just start breaking totems before we're done with all the generators, eh?
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@su11yboy I agree you see NOED used by inexperienced or not very skilled killers a lot more than by skilled ones. I also agree that it does feel cheap.
That said, I still find the argument completely false. It can be easily turned around and we can reasonably say it punishes bad survivors. Just like Blood Warden, it seems very strong only if survivors don't expect it (or they are too lazy to do something about it). If a survivor ALWAYS assumes that the killer has it, it can be rendered powerless: just don't rush to the gates once they are powered, instead, play immersed and look for the totem, and wait for someone else to get hit.
I'm not trying to lecture you, I'm guessing you know how to counter it, but then you can also see why your suggested nerf (yeah it's a nerf) would make it trash tier.
If it was not a Hex perk to begin with, then we could talk. But since it can be literally removed from the game in 16 seconds, there's no point neutering it even further.
You really can't say it's a "guaranteed massacre". It is a guaranteed massacre only if survivors play cocky after last gen is done, AND if when one of them is hooked, the others foolishly swarm the hook. In short, only if they play stupid. Again: NOED is decent at punishing bad survivors.
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@ElusivePukka @George_Soros Thank you for at least understanding the point I'm trying to make. Most of the people are just commenting saying I'm lazy for not breaking totems, and saying it's on the team for not breaking totems (which is true). However as I'd assume most of you know playing solo survivor can be pretty painful even in red ranks. I don't break totems because none of my team does, instead I just remember where I saw dull totems, and if the killer is awful I might start looking more for them, and if I find enough dull/broken totems to account for all of them, I'll start breaking them. No one I've played with ever breaks any totems, or more then 1 which is pretty useless as it still leaves 3 more (assuming there was Ruin, leaves 4 more if there's no Ruin, and no one else is breaking them). All I'm saying is Noed rewards bad players. To me it seems very obvious. A lot of the points some of you made, how it punishes lazy survivors is true and I agree 100%. I play both sides so I understand, and I don't want to necessarily nerf it (although my change was definitely a nerf and I get that might've pissed some people off), I just want to rework it so it doesn't reward the killers who aren't good at killer and purely rely on it to win the game. Just like how bad survivors would rely on DS so they'd never get hooked, or they'd use MoM so they would have long chases, or killers would have to give up on them. There was even Wakeup! where survivors took advantage of a big exploit in a bugged perk. Noed is a good punishment to bad survivors, or their mistakes, but it also rewards bad killers which is problem for me. Maybe when killer actually receives some buffs to be stronger then survivors we can worry about changing noed to fit the goal I want.
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it doesn't matter if the Killer plays well or not, the perk itself is only affected by Survivor performance. whether they're a hardcore veteran or a noob just starting out, the killer has no control over whether the perk activates or not unless they're actively guarding at least one totem the entire match. it sucks when it happens, but failing to cover all your bases before popping Gen 5 is your team's fault. even the best red rank Killers can have the perk denied if survivors don't blindly pop gens as quickly as possible
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Or just cleanse the totems instead of getting rid of the gens in 5 mins.
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