We need more people vocal about Legion.
Comments
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they are never reverting the change to legion, because there was no counterplay
they may buff legion, but it will never be the way it used to be and you might as well just get comfortable with it
sorry
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Were already discussing other games... Anyway I was gonna get CONtagioon too but i checked steamcharts and that was it. Ended up buying RE7, Sleeping dogs, and original soyndtrack for RE2 all for $19.97! I dis think about DBD but quickly eemwmbered rhese devs. I believe its my time to uninstall DBD till they do something or till ever if Last Year comes out faster than these devs fix their errors!
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There was enough counterplay miaasma and I am an enemie of changing game mechanics, just because a few players are to lazy, to change their gameplay, not important about which game we talk.
Would I be a YouTuber, I would have done a counterplay-tutorial by myself in the past^^.
Sadly, making videos is not my strength. What "computerwork" matters, so I have more or less knoweldge about soundfile editing, writing, questdesign (for rpgs) and worldspace editing (aka. making maps)... So in short... I am to supid for making videos :). Even it would be impossible to do that now, since nobody can make a counterplay video to a killer which not exist anymore.
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Talmeer was right. They were going to ask for nerfs on the only powerful killers who've been out longer than legion. Its outrageous. A kıller who has been out for years ıs gettıng dıscussed much more to be nerfed now. Survıvors are not used to playıng survıval horror ın an assymmetrıcal game because there ısnt any other than F13.
In REmake 2 mr.x follows you around everywhere except some specıfıc rooms for a chance for the player. You can dodge Mr. X, you can outrun him, and he can not 1 shot you/ you can pause the game to heal anytıme ınstantly. However he ıs always there to pressure you and you can not get rıd of hım wıthout progress. The player there won't run ınto mr.x because they wıll need to save resources but rather actually hıde or prepare for confrontatıon, because when you dıe, you dıe.
It ıs also worth mentıonıng that ın the same game, you get to play as a kıd who can only hıde from a man. You would dıe ıf you couldnt. Thıs reauıred skıll and therefore should be how ıt ıs ın DBD, because perks are gıvıng too many chances as ıf pallets and loops and 3 hook mechanıc ısnt enough. Thıs also applies to killers perks. Need to be Removed, especıally trackıng perks lıke whıspers IF they were to make the game actually serıous to play as survıvor wıth only 1 lıfe.
It sounds lıke ıts not dıfferent from a survıvors perspectıve ın DBD agaınst a kıller, except the survıvor ısnt pressured because ıt ıs an assymetrıcal game and they have 2 more chances. They also can ınstaheal and do absurd shıt lıke what survıvors do today to bully a kıller. Thıs ıs why legıon was and nurse and spırıt ıs balanced. They can not be countered ın a chase dırectly, but orher survs could adapt, and the only dıfferences between legıon and nurse/spırıt was skıll and effıcıency. Legıon was far worse than nurse/spırıt because of theır extended chase tıme, but they stıll were surely ınevıtable. Thıs was faır no matter what you say, because there are 3 other survıvors progressıng for them and about to save them wıthout conseauences.
Stıll, legıon felt lıke the kıller the mınorıty felt op, but dıdnt realıze, ıt was the devs fault for makıng such a hard game to balance AND also goıng the worst way to balance ıt by carıng only about low rank survıvors. Nurse should not ınstantly wın a 4k because the player ıs outstandıng wıth her, but ıt ıs also the only way to make Nurse as powerful as she ıs rıght now.
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can you explain what counterplay there was to a killer who could vault windows, pallets, run very fast and could see blood?
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I can actual give you multiple answers to that. A long and a short one. After my survivor experiences is the long one, the one that was fitting for the most scenarios where you have encounter a Legion.
-As first, you need to split up. And not just splitting up. I really mean split up, so far away from each other survivor as it is possile.
The reason for that is, on this way you could prevent a Legion from chaining (attacking multiple survivors while in frenzy) between the survivors. That was already a hugh drawback for a Legion player and has make the bloodview ability mostly useless.
-The counterplay to Legion that is direct behind you was in parts tricky and here we have to decide between a Legion with no addons and a Legion with purple+ addons.
In general, the counterplay here was to make a "vault race". What I mean is... You vault over a pallet as example and then the Legion vaults over it 2 and that again and again and again until the Legion has lost its frenzy abilitiy.
It was possible to outplay a Legion on this way, but you needed to know the whole time, what you are doing as survivor (and of course also as Legion player).
The outcome of this was that either the Legion had never catch you in frenzy time, or when you have make something wrong, that the Legion had catch you (knife you, grab you while you trying to vault... you know what I mean).
That was really intenste moments in a chase for both sides.
The difference between a Legion without addons and a Legion with addons was here, that the Legion without addons had much lesser time for this (so that whole "vault game" was shorter) and... How should I describe it?
Have you ever seen a Legion, waiting in frenzy for a pallet, so that you as surviver should drop it?
That was something you could only do as a Legion with purple addons. Without addons, you had no time for that because of the short duration of frenzy without addons and that had lead to pallet stuns, because without addons you really needed to "hang" on a survivor.
A survivor could still pallet stun a Legion and when survivor were succesfull with that, the Legion had lost the frenzy ability for a short amount of time.
That was it as first, I may have have forgetten something, but then I will add it later, when something reminds me on that.
The short way btw. was to directly gen rush generators and to play stealthy in general. The weakness of the Legion was, that she had a really hard time against stealthy survivors. When 4 survivors had gen rush 4 generators, a game against a Legion could be very fast over.
And here we have also a "Legion problem" with survivors.
Some survivors were really tryhard at looping, or in waiting* and yes... those survivos got caught in the most cases... But since stealth play was the right tactic against the Legion, I don't see here a problem by the pre patch Legion.
*waiting: With that I had mean... Sometimes you have survivors in matches that stay back. They waiting on the moment a survivor got caught by the killer and then they start doing gens, or totems and that was wrong against the Legion.
The tactic was really that 4 people, move directly to gens and start working on them.
Staying back and hoping you are not the one who got caught was the wrong tactic.
If you have more questions, or remarks, please write it down.
I bet I have presumably forget something anyways^^.
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Now, kıller ıs #########, and survıvor ıs happy for beıng ınvıncıble.
Heres a truth: any kıller can tunnel you and down you. Legıon can stıll down wıth FF ıf he has FMT. There ıs lıterally no dıfference when you are beıng chased. Its only that legıon had to attack you 3 more tımes vaultıng pallets and such. He could counter ınfınıtes, but he was stıll takıng a long tıme downıng someone.
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Because the hits were unavoidable. A killer or addons with no counterplay are bad for the game. It isn't hard to understand.
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Hits are avoidable split up and genrush.
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Ahm... You haven't read what I have written, or is my english to bad?
How ever. The short version of my text is anyways that there was counterplay. You don't have to read it. At the moment, the Legion is anyways a different killer.
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I am simply responding to the OP, I have not read the majority of the responses on this.
There is no counterplay to Frank's Mixtape with old Legion. You could juke a hit, but then just get hit right after again because there was no penalty to missing a hit.
And overall there was no counterplay to Legion's power. Splitting up is not the counter play I am talking about. Being able to avoid a hit in some way was just not there with the old Legion.
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Franks Mixtape was op without a question, but that didn't justify the rework patch.
That would have justify to remove or rework this specific addon and nothing else.
The hits of the Legion were avoidable. At least not more or less as by other killer.
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Watch from minutes 6 onwards, we fail to kill Jason so we decide to bully him until the end if the match..
Very sad!
That's the problem with asymmetric, one side, the majority pushes for unbalance. That's why Jason is weak and why most dbd killers are a joke
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Sorry, the first minutes were already enough for me. This game is so undemanding after what I have saw there, I can only shake my had.
Would they change Jason in something cute, that game could easily named Hello Kitty adventures^^.
I don't see the point in playing a horror game and then behave like the survivors there.
A horror game should be thrilling and sometimes even scary, imo.
Sad part on this is, that you are right, and some people in dbd really like to make a game for 3 year olds of it and at the end of it, nobody will be happy with what he is playing.
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lmao ######### is that! i prefer to play as jason and my first game i got 6 kills... at least you can play with bots and choose their difficulty
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We are pretty vocal but it's apparent they don't give a damn about Legion's state, they just made so they won't be an issue ever again and called it a day after overly butchering their power
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well hold off now they might be at the live stream. at this point i dont even care sincei h ave plenty of other games to play thx to the summer sale 80% drops lul. however i would like DBD to stay as my favorite assymmetrical game until something else pops up, and assuming it will take a long time for that, i would like them to remove the missed penalty since the power can't even down anymore. Oh and waiting until mid chapter for 1 single change will be pretty mad but at least it is a change.
nevremind y did i except something else other than freddy
Post edited by [Deleted User] on0 -
Consider we were very well trained Jason hunters that's why Jason got bullied, BUT we shouldn't have been able to do so because we were NOT thr killer!
Dbd isn't that better though killers can be bullied as well :(
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Welp they (entitled survs) want to nerf nurse and spirit so they are not scared at all lmao
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Yes we are.
For other companies, that would be already enough.
As example: After enough comments, Blizzard announced lately that they will set up classic servers for different languages. That was something they had say no to before.
But it seems the dbd devs like losing money if I think on what I said before. Luckily, as user we can sit back and just looking at this scenario with a "how long they will need to realize what need to be done?" face.
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Setting up classic servers for different languages cost money. Changing a game doesn't cost money. They are changing the game and killers to favor survivors, and as survivors seem to be the majority of players, survivors buy skins and they get their income. Legion got them a lot of money, so when they were done with him they changed him to a money trap for players who have no idea... They even had the audacity to keep the Darkness Among Us Spotlight in the DLC.
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Yeah, but we both know what happens, if a new player jumps into this moneytrap. At least we can asume it just with common sense and because of comments in this forum and also our own experiences.
The majority of those players will stop buying dbd stuff and tell their friends how they got tricked by this game.
Imo, it would be better for the devs, if they would get money from the majority of Legion players and survivors. Focusing only on survivors is the wrong way for doing that.
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Same with ghostface people were bitching about him when using his addons which they did as intended made it harder to detect, instead of learning they cried nerf within a week of him being released.
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It's fascinating. Entitled Survivors think only of their own fun, and can not be used to losing. They think that just because Legion, who is not even as good as Spirit, counters looping should be nerfed. Then, they say "get used to it" "exploiter" "you deserved it" to people who played Legion the way the player wanted to play him and did not moonwalk or use exploits of any kind. Now, they are done with us in half a year. They still say "Legion has no counterplay" when all you had to do was split up and genrush. Devs are blatantly only caring about Survivors, because asymmetrical game.
I'm just stating facts here. Those survivors who said Legion had no counterplay when they were genrushing him and winning most games against him are the same ones who ask Spirit to be nerfed. They want Easy mode, and the devs are giving it to them. They are sad they can't bully the killer by teabagging in front of pallets and taunting the killer. All they are asking for is more Nurse's and Spirit's. Which is why they want them to be nerfed too. IF and when that nerf comes around, i will camp basement with Leatherface until i get banned.
Forgot about the Survivors who say "Camping is not a strategy" when the first 2 killers have powers that allow them to camp...
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A great example of those "no counterplay" survivors have we already in this thread on page 4.
I have write a long posting with counterplay tips to the old Legion that have worked and the answer of a survivor:
"I don't have read it and the few things I have read of it, I don't like to use."
Nobody can help those survivors, if they don't care at all or are learn resistant.
Sad thing is, devs have listen to this minority of survivors.
If the devs not stop listening to those part of the survivors, db will become so insignificant as f13, or contagion now.
I like to see which decision they make.
Anyways, I hope that they don't touch nurse and spirit and buff the rest of the killers. For the greater good of this game.
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They were not avoidable? Do you even play survivor?
Not only is the frenzy hitbox huge, there was no penalty for missing a frenzy hit despite the huge hitbox. So even if you managed to avoid it, you would most of the time still get stabbed because they could try again right after. It was 100 percent bullshit.
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It depends of the situation we are talking from.
If we talk from a "ordinary" chase, then the hits were avoidable.
If we talk from hits, from a Legion that is direct behind you in hit range, then yes... You got most likley hitten, but that shouldn't be surprising, since that is by every killer the case.
But back to hits that are most likley happen during a chase, because they were as said before avoidable. I have describe it in my long posting on page 4.
Please understand, that I don't like to write a huge text like this again. Just go on page 4 and read it.
If you have still the same opinion after reading this, I don't know how to help you then. But I will look on YouTube if I find an actual serious videos about the Legion, or also general survivor tactics.
Sometimes are videos better as any written text (especially since I am not a native english speaker).
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So...
I have found a video... Surprisingly easy (it was the first one with the search tags "dead by daylight legion survivor tactics" on YouTube).
In the video, you can see how a survivor has survived against the pre patch Legion. I have even seen better survivors in the game, but as a YouTuber he can't just think on playing like we players, he need also to think how to show what he likes to show to his viewers.
I think video shows very good how the gameplay against the Legion was, if the Legion has not use that one op addon, or exploits.
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You are not entitled to win a chase, you are entitled to have equal chances to win the match.
Even if legion was able to down survivors with not much coubterplsy thst doesn't count because you could still win by completing your objectives.
A guess what? It was fairly easy to defeat the old legion.
This isn't a one vs one game, it's a team game and the balance must be made on team vs team, once you accept this you will see that old legion was weak, and
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legion's hits were not avoidable. stuff that worked against bad killers isn't counterplay
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They were. Don't come please with that excusment for yourself "bad killers", because we could also turn that argument around and then it would be bad survivors.
Different killers need different tactics for the killers and for the survivors and if someone is not willing to respect this... Then I will never agree with him about this topic.
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PS: I need to say, after I have write a long tutorial in this thread and search for you survivors a video on YouTube, that this would actually be a task for you survivors.
Because, I as a Legion, don't need to know how to do it as survivor. It is a nice addition for a killer to know this. Nothing more.
To get answers back in return like in the last postings, proofs only what Legion mains (including me) have write here in this thread.
It is not always someone else's fault if something is not going well.
... and sorry for the doubleposting again... But high cpu usage in this forum, no editing possible and so on...
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Before, Legion could miss you multiple times in a row and still manage to get a hit off by the end. There was only so much you could do and you had a timer, too. If you couldn't lose him within that time, you were going down. Additionally, he was slower despite his power being nonlethal. I quite like the changes. I like that if they choose to not heal for whatever reason, I'm going at a normal killer speed and it's more dangerous for him. I like that their bodies are smaller. You can do mind games easier and it feels as though you can take loops tighter. They essentially made it so that you didn't have to tunnel down someone to get kills. They made it so that you weren't required to have very good add-ons to be time efficient. They just made it harder to cheese people in return since that didn't feel good for the other side.
That's why it was a rework. Given I'd like if some of the add-ons were more useful or just completely changed, but it feels fine playing as Legion.
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I think every Legion main knows why this Legion patch has come. Not important if he likes the changes, or not.
But btw. "to get a hit off by the end."... I have also play sometimes other killers (mostly Meyers and Clown) and when I was near enough on a survivor I have also always hit with them (if no lag had occur). That is imo nothing special if we realy talk about a short distance.
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@Talmer, please @ or quote someone. They're not gonna know you're talking to them otherwise. I'm guessing that was for me, though, since you were the last one to post before. The issue as I was describing was that it took little thought. You followed people at fast speeds where they often couldn't outrun you. You could see blood, so following them was very easy and a lot of people were cheesing it and just looking at the ground to avoid chase so that the timer would go down. If you failed at tunneling someone before, I don't know what to tell you. It was very easy (and brain dead) to tunnel someone down before and there was no penalty for missing multiple times in a row. You get pentalties for all other killers. It doesn't matter if it's Meyers or Clown. That pause when you miss is the penalty. Legion didn't get that, they could just swing again if you happened to dodge or they happened to miss.
Part of the patch was a movement increase and they changed some things to balance for that. While I didn't like all of the changes, it's changes I can work around and I think they're fair changes. The change was due to both sides not liking things about Legion. His movement speed decrease didn't make sense with his power. It was non lethal. Now he's a normal speed killer who often gets a free first hit, faster speed mode, and a time waster if you happen to get more than one person. It's just about knowing how to play Legion and learning to track and pay attention to where people go. You can also counter loops and keep up better with their normal killer speed.
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You are right with the @ thing, but what should I say? Old habits... This is the first forum, which I have learn to know with a function like this. Maybe one day I can get rid of my old habits (hopefully) :).
The penalty you are talking from is one reason why I hate the patch. I have love to run behind survivors, wild swinging with a knife. Of course, not actually with the motivation to hit them if they were to far away - more for my own pleasure.
I also don't like to feel pressed in one specific role. Imo, for me is a good killer, who lets me enough space to do my own thing (Meyers as example is also a killer with enough space to let the player develop his own playstyl).
It is for me ok, if someone likes the new Legion, but she is absolutly not anymore the funkiller I have love to play and that is why me and others are still posting in those forums.
Besides that, I could live with a Legion how she is today, if the devs would take that freaking penalty away and give the Legion her old frenzy speed back.
I also think that would not change too much balance releated, as long as all the other nerfs are still active.
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Give Legion everything back but keep the deep wound change so the exploit doesn't come back.
@fluffymareep Any killer will eventually down a survivor. As far as it being too easy then keeping the missed attack stun, removing blood trails, and the deep wound changes would be a good fix.
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#MakeLegionGreatForOnce
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Legion now is the shittiest design for killer there could be.
He stabs you so hard that you get internal injury so bad... that he can stab you one million times and you are fine. Just stay in terror radius and rush gens... So scary killer...
He was perfectly fine as he came out (wasnt good killer, but at least wasnt useless garbage as he is today).
And this is why you will see only Trappers, Spirits, Nurses and Billies on higher ranks. Every time devs come with something fresh and interesting they have to nerf it to the ground in ways that don't even make sense.
I bet reworked Freddy will be nerfed soon after release aswell.
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The only part of his nerf I actually agree with is the miss pulling you out of feral frenzy. If you can't land the hit then you either need to get better or stop playing Legion. The rest of it is terrible though.
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I was just confused if you were talking to me at first @Talmeer Thought I'd mention it in case you didn't know. c:
I want the pins to apply to the first stab and the jumping over while in frenzy to be a bit faster. I also wouldn't care if they included the deep wound damage again, but kept all the other changes. I feel that would be fair. From what others said from when the changes were going through, it's more of a redesign for the character so that they could hopefully give the killer some more meaningful buffs/changes later on without it being overkill for survivors. Gives him a good base to go from. I think the old Legion may have been part of the reason the changes to Thanta didn't go through.
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Stupidest argument ever. I am not even going to talk about how it is stupid, because i have told it many times. All you need to know is the game is not optimized. I should not be discouraged from playing Legion if i have lag that makes me miss. I meet Recommended settings too.
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They removed it because people abused it.
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I've summed up my thoughts on Legion design including his power and addons, which were posted partially in this thread.
I'd like to hear opinions, especially from Legion mains
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Yeah because people kept downvoting bad changes in the patch notes, I'm pretty sure that's the actual reason because everything else was harmless, stupid but harmless, lol.
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I like how many people have posted here bringing support to changing Legion one way or another. We may disagree on exactly how but most seem to agree he's in a very bad place. Still hoping for surprise changes this mid chapter despite no word about it in the livestream or dev update.
Post edited by Kabu on2 -
+1
To see so many people that have rise their voice is amazing. No matter if we talk about this thread, or the countless others.
I don't even know how many Legion threads really exist, since not every Legion thread runs the "Legion tag".
I think we can be happy already about this alone, because it shows clearly the interest of the community to this topic. No matter how Behavior someday will react to it.
That they stay quite for some time was something, that was btw. to be expected, imo.
It is hard to justify and to explain this "nerf bundle" to Legion mains, who understand the changes and ask themselfs, why this huge nerf was necessary even though some adjustments here and there would have been enough.
I guess they still hope, that the complains end at some point and I think, that will be true someday, but it will change nothing under the table.
May one day, nobody writes anymore something about the Legion patch in this, or the steam forums, but even then, the people will still be upset about the patch and/or that they have bought the Legion with a wrong expectation, because of the advertisement.
That are the reasons, why I think, that they can't run away for a second rework of the Legion. All what happens in the time in between, is just time wasting and we can only hope that not to many time passes until they grab the Legion up again.
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Imagine, to see a Jane vault faster as you... Or a Ace Visconti running away for you in a mid sized loop while you are in frenzy.
I get still a ######### face when I think back on my experiences on the Legion patch day^^.
Poor Legion has over night turned from young adults to 50+ old guys with real health issues, that gives survivors almost a "sorry" feeling, for playing against the after patch Legion :|.
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