This great Legion idea solves his problems and also gives him power and enjoyment to play
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Legion doesnt need that big of a rework
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It isn't that much of a change to your game style as Legion if you think about it. It seems too long because everything is very well justified. We simply changed the add-ons so they aren't neither overpowered nor useless.
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I actually enjoy him more since the changes, not that I play him that much admittedly
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gonna say, that gauge damage shouldnt be a thing.
FM should give different bufs, then. But 28 stab legion should be gone.
Otherwise, im ok with your statement, by the most
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The power should be lethal imo, like every other.
Also, it isn't that powerful given that he is a 4.4ms killer and can't vault pallets so it isn't not even close like before.
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This Legion they "created" does what the new one does but better and his power is lethal and he doesn't feel slugish.
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I already posted this idea in the Killers subform and mentioned you cause i saw you a lot on other legion posts but it seemed like you never got it. I feel happy to see someone else understand this killer's identity and gamestyle, not like other legion players who prefer the new legion that gives absolutely nothing good to the game and is very sluggish.
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#FixLegion
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Does this mean that you approve these changes?
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I do obviously. Why would i not. But it's very unlikely devs will take this one in. They like to do whatevers in their mind.
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Yeah, that is the sad part about the devs of this game. It seems like they are too proud to pick up the community's ideas. Seems like the forum is just to report bugs and nothing more. They must have in their minds that by asking the help of the community is a very bad thing and will degree their image. iT'S THE OPPOSITE, it would feel great that they would listen to the community and evolve with them. What if an idea that has the chance to be good that they picked up from the community didn't work as pretended? Just undo it and start searching again. It is that simple. They are getting better at it, but not quite enough.
Post edited by NullSp3c on2 -
I like this. Anything is better than the current version.
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Why did you post this twice?
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Legion would feel a lot better if:
- Missed attacks didn't immediately knock you out of FF.
- Dude could see scratch marks in FF.
- You moved slightly faster (say 130% movement speed instead of 125%) in Feral Frenzy.
- The power duration was increased or the cooldown was decreased so that you got to spend more time using your actual power. Right now the cooldown is twice as long as the power duration.
It wouldn't be a good killer, but it would at least be more enjoyable to play. Right now Legion has all of the staring at the ground-esque problems that go with Nurse without the viability that makes people put up with that. They honestly need to be a bit more fun and convenient to play.
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This awesome forum deleted when i first wrote it, then it was back out of nowhere, i will delete the 2nd one.
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I created a 115% version of this fix concept for people who like the new legion better.
Personally I still prefer the 110% version but I can make it work either way.
It's mostly just number changes compared to this one. However remember that the new legion has a bigger miss penalty and can't see blood. I didn't remove that here.
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The 110% one is better imo because it also gives legion the spreading mechanic and also makes his power lethal instead of making him a loopable 4.6 ms killer, it's more flexible and has better mechanics. I just think that legion, no matter the changes, is not designed to be a 115% killer.
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This is true. But I wanted to try anyways.
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Sure. Your ideas are the best.
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"I just don't think that legion, no matter the changes, is not designed to be a 115% killer." That means he is designed to be a 115% killer, but i get you. :)
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AHahaha even i struggled to understand it now. I mean, i didn't sleep enough and english isn't my native language so this is what happens when those two factor mix up xD.
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:D cant WAIT for the PTB man imagine they actually removed the miss penalty and buffed his speed!
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If they do change legion, it will only be in the next patch, not this one, unfortunately.
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Why the .?
we've been complaining for a long time and they have not showed to respond to any of the recent posts.
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Because changes are hard when you are using spaghetti code, this post only blew up recently and BHVR takes forever to make changes in general.
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That "spaghetti code" expression always gets me ahahahaha. But seriously, that is a very harsh problem to make the game good. Spaghetti code, no new ideas. I think that they are always trying to improve the game's code.
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Nuclear Burrito can you give me your steam profile so we can talk about legion? I got some ideas that would make these changes shorter and clearer and have the same effect and i would like to discuss it with you.
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Discord: NuclearBurrito#4437
Steam: Nuclearburrito
I'd prefer discord if you have it
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I'll add you on both.
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If legions power was as fast or just slightly under billys chainsaw, it would be useful for map pressure.
If legions bleed out required a gimmick item like (new) freddy, pig, or plague, it would help to slow down the game.
If legion's power was faster at vaults then they could end loops like Spirit, Nurse and Huntress.
If legion could just stabbity-stabby without breaking their power on a missed swing they could still apply pressure like LF where you don't want to be in proximity of him.
I'm not saying it should be all of these things, but it is NONE of these things. The power is just horrible now.
The ONE thing it has going for it is that you can track players within your terror radius, THAT is pretty nifty and it still can be countered. Is it enough to warrant all the drawbacks? ... Im not so sure about that. It just means I dont have to run (as many) detection perks.
Post edited by Onionthing on4 -
He is very underwhelming now and the worst part is that he is SUPPOSED to be a fast and agile killer. Guess what? He vaults in his power almost as slow as when he is vaulting without his power, misses an attack 4 second fatigue(remember that it is a frenzy so he should stab stab stab stab until he hits, like before), just runs 0,4 m/s more in his power than he is just simply walking. Devs like to call it SPEEEEEED. Oh wait, there is more. If you want to stab someone that is bleeding out to death, stab him and he has arenaline and starts running and a very high speed for a short time.
FUN
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I like this idea, but I'd have to play around with it to actually decide whether or not I'd like this in the game. It sounds fine to play against as survivor, but I do like playing as current legion.
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The legion version of this post is basically the one live atm but his power can be lethal and he actually is fast and not sluggish. He can spread hits even better than now. The only "downside" if you want to call it compared to now is the m/s being reduced to 4.4(the old value) but it doesn't matter that much when your power is lethal.
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up for comparaison
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Hell I read it all in 2. That's no counter argument.
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"This all seems bad. Maybe someone else likes it but this seems to make him even weaker than he already is." is this an argument then? This is a opinion without fundament. Tell me why you disagree and what aspects you would like to be changed/removed/added. That is a matter of discussion, not what he said.
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I never said I disagreed? Just that asking someone if "they read it all in 4 minutes" was heavily implying that it couldn't have been read, therefore their opinions were invalid.
I just said I read it in 2 showing that reading it in 4 isnt impossible.
But you wanna argue with someone dont you?
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It was common sense that you can agree/disagree and i said disagree because it was his case.
What do you mean with this? "But you wanna argue with someone dont you?" It seemed like you said that i wanted to fight.
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Does this matter at all?
Even if someone was just mashing on the keyboard without even understanding english their arguments would be equally valid.
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This is a discussion, he didn't say anything that could be discussed. But this is a free forum and anyone can say what they want when not insulting others. My point was that he gave no discussible commentary. It was so fast that i thought that he was one of the people that simply hate everything without reading it all but ok.
It doesn't matter for me but for this dude does.
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lets move this here, since it has nothing to do with your suggestion and is instead about THIS suggestion.
Anyways:
So starting with the 13 meters you calculated it takes 8.125 seconds to reach them, meaning you have 3.87500 seconds to spare on vaults ect.
Ok so, when a Survivor vaults a pallet or fast vaults a window it takes them 0.5 seconds. Since it takes you 0.9 seconds that means they gain 0.4 seconds of distance.
0.4*4 = 1.6 meters or in other words 1 second. Add in 0.9 and each vault costs the legion 1.9 seconds of time.
1.9*2 = 3.8 so that means he can afford 2 vaults and still hit the Survivor.
There aren't that many places on most maps where there are 3 or more vaults close enough together for that which are also forced, especially since you can hit people immediately after a window vault and during any vault, so if they only barely make it then that isn't going to cut it since the Legion will just lunge and secure the hit.
AND you've just (explicitly) assumed there is no mindgame. Some windows and pallets don't have a mindgame sure, but many of them do and that can sometimes save you time. Sure they can see you through the window if you just stand there, but if you start running in one direction and then turn back to vault then that can mess up their movement a bit, which might let you get to them slightly faster if successful and that can be enough to secure a hit.
Probably not as applicable as in a standard M1 situation, but the possibility is there.
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Run back around and vault again. Waste his time. The Legion can’t mindgame the vault if you have actual distance, which you will after that first vault. Running around a loop will always be more cumbersome to the Legion than running in a straight line.
And with the way the walls around windows work, if there is a window that can be decently mindgamed, then that window is probably useless anyway.
But even if the Survivor messes up enough to let you get to them in this scenario, that still ignores the problem that reigns supreme above all else: the scenario I described is being VERY generous in terms of how close you can get to Survivors before they notice you and start running away. In most cases, they will be far too split apart to allow you a good chain. And on that note, in the time it would take for you to hit a second Survivor in the generous scenario applied, the two who have not been hit will have leagues of time and space between themselves and you, and the third will have finished mending because you nerfed it, so you have effectively accomplished nothing. Which means that, just like the current Legion, your iteration of the Killer ultimately fails at having map pressure and stall because of how underwhelming Deep Wound and mending is.
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@NuclearBurrito Also, I made a miscalculation. If you’re running towards one Survivor at 5.6 MPS, and the second one is running away at a rate of 4 MPS, then there is a total of 9.6 meters of distance being put between the second Survivor and you every second. This means that the Survivor reaches the distance needed to outpace your Frenzy if you chase the first Survivor for longer than 2 seconds. You would literally need to be right on top of them by the time one of them is within hitting range.
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Running at 5.6 ms for 12 seconds is a lot(67.2 meters) so it will be very hard for them to run you out. The current frenzy is 50 meters and it accomplishes nothing because of the ms being so low.
"If you’re running towards one Survivor at 5.6 MPS, and the second one is running away at a rate of 4 MPS, then there is a total of 9.6 meters of distance being put between the second Survivor and you every second."
You can't put things like that. This needs to be adjusted because there are variants.
1st variant- The survivor doesn't run exactly the opposite way. What you described is an almost impossible situation.
2nd variant- The different paths that a survivor can go through to run away aren't always a straight line.
3rd- The survivor may or may not see you coming and, even if he hears you, may not know where you're going to.
and so on...
Basically that is the best of the best situations possible.
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By the old Legion, they don't had to do it. I mean... sure they got most likley hitten, but then they got that little sprint burst after a hit that safes their day if the Legion had not activate frenzy direct behind them or had not a addon running like Franks Mixtape.
I just throw this in here, as a neutral information^^.
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“Running at 5.6 ms for 12 seconds is a lot(67.2 meters) so it will be very hard for them to run you out. The current frenzy is 50 meters and it accomplishes nothing because of the ms being so low.”
The amount of distance you travel is irrelevant. What matters is how fast you can catch up to a running Survivor.
“You can't put things like that. This needs to be adjusted because there are variants.”
- If the Survivor is far enough away from you that they can’t tell where you are, then chances are, when they do—which shouldn’t take them long unless they have no headphones and a blindfold on—they’ll still be too far away for you to catch up when they start running. Besides, the situation described is two Survivors who were bu chef up before they decided to run away from the Legion—the situation in which Legion’s ability to chain hits ought to shine the most. And yet, it doesn’t.
- The snags in running away you described do little to nothing to hinder the Survivor’s ability to put distance between you and the Killer, and you know it. So what if the path is suboptimal? If they’re running AWAY from you in any fashion while you go the other way to chase another Survivor, then they’ll be putting leagues of distance between you, no matter what.
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"The amount of distance you travel is irrelevant. What matters is how fast you can catch up to a running Survivor."
What do you mean is irrelevant? If frenzy only ables you to run 2 seconds at 6 ms(for example) it should be very good, as you're saying it is.
point 1- Legion can travel a lot and can catch them, survivors aren't omniscient and know where you are all the times. Legion has a small terror radius (24 meters) and with our without M&A he can catch multiple survivors with his power. He is really fast so he can catch up fast and far.
point 2- What i said makes a LOT but i mean A LOT of difference. Even if the survivor runs away to the opposite side you can still catch them, and fast. Those "leagues" of distance can be compensated by the distance and quickness that you can catch them.
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Ok so by THAT math (thinking about it that does make more sense and I made the same mistake myself) the Legion would need to be able to travel WAY faster in order to make chain hitting work, even in theory.
How the heck does anyone get chain hits again? Anyways:
Using the 9.6 M/S* 5 seconds we get that the survivor is 48 meters away. In order to catch up from that distance in 12 seconds the Legion would need to move at 8 M/S. Obviously that's unreasonable.
Something we COULD (technically) do is double the time (thus making it 24 seconds) again. Since that would mean that the Legion could literally Frenzy across the entire map, meaning that the Survivor would be forced to stop running away at some point ant would have to start running in something other than a straight line away from the Legion, at which point the Legion starts gaining ground significantly faster than 1.6 M/S.
Another option would be trying to increase the initial speed further, since if it's something like 6 M/S at all times then the initial time spent running away would be smaller. Specifically it would be 40 meters of distance. That would require 20 seconds of running at that speed, however that can be fudged in if needed.
Anyways though, looking at these numbers really makes me question how the hell Legion gets chain hits. Because he DOES get chain hits, even if it's not consistently. Do Survivors just not bother to run away? Or are we still underestimating the length of a meter and thus the initial distance is much shorter than we think it would be? For example if we started with 3 meters instead of 8 then the 2nd Survivor would end up a far more manageable 18 meters away. Sure that sounds insanely close but somehow Legion is currently able to get chain hits off sometimes and the math doesn't check out for that with larger distances.
BTW. If we set his speed to 6 M/S then he would be able to hit anyone in his terror radius exactly (given a straight line, but since both most people will be closer or further than that and lunges exist ect that's still pretty close).
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No he's right. It's relative distance that matters not absolute distance.
Basically take the Legions speed and subtract 4 M/S. That's what you use to calculate his effective range, which is 6.6 for the first hit and 19.2 for additional hits.
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