General Discussions
General Discussions
Enduring was actually nerfed, it is now slower than it use to be.
Comments
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This is a damn joke.
🤦
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I wish we still had the downvote button just for threads like this.
For anyone who doesn't want to watch the video, the supposed complaint is that in this person's testing they believe post-change Enduring recovers from pallets 9 frames slower than pre-change Enduring, an amount of time extremely hard for humans to even recognize the difference between.
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The thing is, we are 1/3 of a second away from what the devs promised. That, you can tell the difference between. 150ms is something you can experience as well.
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Okay... is this accurate? Because if so, I thought I was going ######### insane lol. I thought it felt slower since the change but I just kept thinking 'I guess it's just visual?'.
I've been taking Enduring off of more and more killers, please god revert this if it's true devs :'(
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I explained my testing in the description of the video. I believe 100% that this is as accurate as you can get.
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It's supposed to reduce pallet stuns from 2 seconds to 1 second. It effectively does this. I don't agree with your methodology for testing/recording this; but the amount of time is small enough that human reaction time after the stun makes significantly more of a difference.
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Every tiny millisecond counts when it comes to Enduring, else how would people even notice this in the first place? And the devs nerfed Enduring to not affect DS or Head On, and claimed that its effect on pallets was actually being slightly buffed overall. You don't see a problem if instead they nerfed it?
At no point has Enduring ever needed a nerf when it comes to pallet stuns.
Btw @Financial_Stability thanks for doing this, I've been wondering if anyone would do the precise before and after comparison and I'm glad you did.
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What about the test is inaccurate if you don't agree with it if you don't mind me asking? 1/3 of a second is plenty noticeable. Heck 15% of a second is noticeable.
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The timing of the animation might be off. Since you don't know when the stun actually 'starts' You seemed to be counting from the time the survivor goes to grab the pallet down. Which may not be considered 'stun'
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He says he's going from the time the power UI disappears, wouldn't that be consistent with only recording the stun?
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I timed as soon as any interaction on the bottom UI disappeared. This is when you will be locked into the stun. The end is when you have the ability to interact, so you will get UI elements. These are done at the frame they disappear/reappear, so at worst a margin of error of 1~2/60th of a second.
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Well you both have to see it as a process. Code can only execute a few statements at a time.
UI Disappears -> You lose power to your character -> Stun Animation -> You regain power -> You see UI. You might be 'stunned' until the affect is given back but the actual stun that happens might be not what is referred to as the entire pallet stun.
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I mean I guess? You'll still catch up to the guy either way in the chase, it doesn't look too bad for enduring. You'll still be able to be present in the chase and not lose the person. It doesn't look that affecting.
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It may be functional, but as it stands the devs did the exact opposite of what they promised and goofed up the timing. It should be a 1/3rd of a second faster than what it is.
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I guess? The 1/3 I guess is huge but I really don't see it affecting a killer while in a chase, and even so with Spirit Fury. No one runs enduring often anymore without spirit fury. This though, the malfunction and f up on a perk is embarrassing and should be fixed immediately.
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Pallets aren't a threat? The most widely used and valued defense mechanism for survivors isn't important? Could you refuse to acknowledge the problem any harder than this?
I'm amazed at how many people can't intelligently argue with the video and the way it was measured but still insist that the OP is wrong. Arguing that he faked it would be reasonable. Arguing that this proves nothing is just blatant arrogance.
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Do you guys REALLY think ANYTHING the devs do to this game (in 2019) is UNINTENTIONAL!? They KNOW this game EXTREMELY well. I realized that after the "Supposed" Ash and Ghostface "Leaks". I'm confident enough to say, I believe the only thing(s) that may be accidental, would be the bugs / glitches, but even those are purposely added sometimes. Any so called "Change" that is made these days, was meant. Believe that.
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Relax, it's probably just another bug.
Thanks for recording, OP. I approve of posts that are more than just whining without evidence.
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I'll give this a crack with a friend in KYF while waiting for EAC to get their ######### together and respond to my appeal, and record it to ssee.
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OH SHIET A WHOLE 0.09 of a second nerf?! OMG!!!
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Is anybody actually surprised?
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If that is so, it's only because someone ######### up the coding.
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I'd like to see Enduring get a secondary effect such as being able to read the aura of the survivor who pallet stunned you for 5 seconds.
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Ever see anyone running brutal strength? no...
because the dev's increased base breaking time but also nerfed enduring so it is slower than it was.
it all matters and all makes a difference.
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@Peanits any comment on this please?
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Just for the sake of consistency, wouldn't it have been better to test it with the same killer? You never know if different powers activate/deactivate in slightly different moments.
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It is weird that you sat that pallets are not a threat, yet they have the power to dissuade the Killer from continuing a chase. What is your definition of "being a threat," then?
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My only complait is that its not side by side.
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It does feel different. I used spirit fury and enduring as my main staple on killers.. and I noticed it didn't feel as good as before. I was thinking it would have been a better combo after the change, but I don't feel it now, as I've switched out the spirit fury for something else.
It felt like survivors could barely get to another pallet unless it was really close by, but now it feels like they get to a new pallets every time it triggered.
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You clearly never played fighting games if you think 9 frames isn't a huge difference.
That translates to nearly 1/6th of a second if we are talking 60fps.
That small difference can mean making it to the next window or not. This is bigger than you think it is.
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As former fighting games player I can say that 9 frames is a huge windows. I was maining GGXX:R Testament and was champion of MFA'2005, FRC windows (tech cancel of moves) could be 3 frames at certain characters.
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To be honest, were actually more in the ball park of 20 frames since that's the distance it is from what was promised.
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If it's slower now, assuming the devs back up their promise to buff the recovery speed, it's a bug, not a nerf.
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Yeah I mean short hops in Smash Ultimate are all 3 frame inputs.
Even a single frame can make or break a loss.
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Do you all remember that Enduring description was changed.
It was - 75% faster recovery from stun
It is now - 50% reduced duration of stun from pallets
And I recalling from devstream some of them said - don't worry numbers are different cause recovery and stun are different things. (meaningwise, in my words)
So to say - devs probably do not lie us on purpose, but as we all know from Legion rework, noone in 100 ppl team is familiar with math.
So if overall stun lockout consists of 2 parts - stun itself and recovery from stun. We end up in situation when 75% of prepatch recovery is bigger than 50% of postpatch stun.
Let's try to do quick math based on known numbers:
1) Pre-patch
Overall length - 2 seconds
Enduring was cutting it down to 1.1 seconds, so 0.9 seconds were 75% of recovery, means recovery part was 1.2 seconds, stun was 0.8 seconds
2) Post-patch
Overall length - 2 seconds
Enduring is cutting it down to 1.2 seconds, so 0.8 seconds is 50% of stun, means stun part now 1.6 seconds, while recovery 0.4 seconds
Thus, either they changed both parts from 1.2 sec recovery and 0.8 sec stun into 1.6 sec stun and 0.4 sec recovery, and obviously couldn't calculate it properly. Or, they just made ninja-nerf to Enduring alongside with taking off its ability to counter 2 survivors perks.
I see both variants viable with these devs :D.
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So basically you use different methods to calculate same things and confuse playerbase and yourselves with it. :)
You should adjust calculations in game and bring them at same method then, all I can say.
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The reason why enduring was changed to work like this is because most people were confused by the way the stun time was calculated previously. 75% increased recovery speed is not the same as 75% reduced stun time. Many people would look at the old Enduring and assume the stuns were only 25% as long as they normally were, but that was not the case.
The reason why there's multiple methods to calculate speeds in the game is pretty simple; when there's multiple things that can affect speed, it's possible to reach 100%.
Let's take Coulrophobia and Self Care, for example. Each reduce the healing rate by 50%. If you had both effects active and it was just a flat healing speed decrease, you would be healing at 0% speed (making absolutely no progress).
Or in a similar example, you could stack various healing perks (Botany Knowledge, Leader, medkits, etc.) and reach a 100% healing time reduction; essentially an instant heal. Even We'll Make It alone would give you an instant heal.
Calculating it this way ensures that you never reach zero or infinite. As an added benefit, this also prevents things from stacking too far.
With Enduring, it's safe to make it a flat stun reduction since it is the only thing that affects pallet stun times. There is nothing that can further reduce the stun to make it instant.
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Spirit Fury is nerfed too.
Spirit Fury+enduring:
ver2.7.1: 1.26sec
ver3.0.1: 1.46sec
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They used different calculations to calculate different things. Increased recovery of x% is not equivalent to time reduction of x%. Speed is not the same as time.
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Just to clear some stuff up, it's actually 1.33 seconds right now, not 1.2. In the video, the very right numbers were frames, and it was made 60fps. So 20/60 is .33
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Yes, of course. What kind of question is that?
Or are you suggesting that high TR killers should completely prevent healing just by standing near the center of certain maps?
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The problem is that the devs said that they nerfed endurance when it came to other stuns, but buffed it when it came to pallet stuns.
Now its just nerfed period.
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@Visionmaker I see you do not understand sarcasm. Do you even realize how slow that is?
In all honesty at that point you should just not heal.
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Thanks, guys, for explanations, but I know math :)
With my last post I meant that if you have same method for calculating all effects in game - it will cut a lot of your own time and will not confuse ppl even further (they already have those considerably and moderately values which have zero correlation in different perks and effects)
There is very easy way to avoid hitting 100% or 0% by stacking effects multiplicatively instead of additively.
50% and 50% of healing reduction stacked multiplicatively (0.5x0.5)=0.25 gives that proper 4 times increased healing time while trying to Self-Care under Coulrophobia effect.
Same with others if you adjust numbers in description to match method.
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“Not all chases should end in a down”
The reason you chase someone is to down them.
It’s not to injure them.
It’s not to get them off a generator.
It’s to down them so you can put them on a hook and sacrifice them.
There is literally no gratification to get from a chase other than having a Survivor to put on a hook.
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Can we please fix this shadow nerf to enduring please?
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