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Spirit Needs Counterplay
Now, don't get me wrong. I love playing the Spirit, she's a really strong killer and that's great. But my days, she's so boring to play against.
I'll use a common example: You're at a pallet and she's on the other end of the loop. Doesn't even matter if the pallet's thrown down or not. You can either approach her, thinking she's phasing and get hit, run away and then she phases to you and get hit, or you can stand there until she phases to you... and get hit.
I'm happy with having her be a strong killer, but I'd enjoy her a whole lot more if there was actually something I could do reliably in a chase other than roll the dice constantly. Your only hope is to rush gens so fast you don't really encounter her. Fun.
If I'm wrong, someone please correct me. It'd make chases with her something I actually look forward to.
Comments
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She already has too much counterplay. Slow movement speed, useless power tied to a 30 seconds cooldwn and completely killed by a dumb audio cue...
Git gud.
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The slow movement speed is nothing when she already has a power that neglects that downside. The fact that you call Spirits power useless shows that you have zero clue on how to play her.
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With the latest sound update on some maps your footstep sound becomes extremely loud, I think that's the main issue that makes any counterplay she used to have useless, either run in zig zags or walk, she will hear your footsteps either way, which makes her even more boring to play against as you'll get downed either way similar to the v1 Legion
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Useless power????? Lmao there's a reason she's considered among the top 3 killers.
She does have counterplay; it's just MUCH harder to learn than for a Spirit player to learn how to use the power effectively, which is fine IMO; it's not like she can use her power constantly like the Nurse.
Much as I hate to say it...if you come across them a lot, I'd start running Iron Will as a default. It's an overrated perk, but consistent vs the Spirit, allowing you to actually play the mindgame rather than giving away your location.
One time I played against survivors and they were confused as to how they could have played against me and I explained pretty well; they didn't know how to play against the fake haunting use, and I explained the best thing to do would be so walk slowly away, not keeping the same direction you initially did (as the killer may see it and work out where you're going otherwise) rather than risk me appearing on the other side of the pallet or them slow vaulting the pallet, thinking they've outplayed me, only to find that I was faking it and getting grabbed. That's another element of counterplay for a specific situation.
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she does need counterplay but good luck convincing the masses of spirit mains on this forum of that
they'll just tell you to run iron wi- oh, already happened, nevermind
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Spirit is one of the most balanced and fun to play as/against killers the devs have released.
She requires a lot of skill to use effectively at red ranks.
She has strengths and weaknesses.
She promotes mindgames, which you genuinely have to be experienced with the game to understand, mindgames are the most balanced element of the game.
She is one of the few killers who live up to the horror genre of the game.
I don't even use her all that often, but have watched plenty of gameplay.
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@Acromio what a meme.
@SunderMun that's exactly the thing. No good Spirit phases straight away or for very long. They use it often and in short bursts in response to what you do. If I were to slowly walk away, that's when they simply begin the phase and hit me. My only real option is to guess and hope the Spirit messes up.
My problem with using Iron Will is that it's quite like "just use Bamboozle," which doesn't solve anything. It's just a band-aid.
@miaasma I feel like a lot of people are sick of weaker killers, so tend to forget that there are balance issues on both ends of the spectrum.
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the main issue with discussions regarding spirit is their propensity to describe her playstyle as having to do with "mindgames", the problem being that there's no mindgame because the survivor can't know what you're doing ever and spirit knows where the survivor is all the time thanks to visual and audio tells. spirit's playstyle is a guessing game for the survivor, and a reaction for the spirit
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That's what I was referring to; in that case you should walk one way slowly and then it's a game of 'did they see me change direction' if you then change direction when you think they should have actually phased. I get that it's difficult, but it's definitely doable - just takes a lot of learning.
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@SunderMun I understand what you meant.
If you're walking away, all the Spirit has to do is phase to where she last saw you. You were walking, so chances are you're not making another rotation of the loop when she spots you post-phase.
Of course, this is all assuming there's no sound or visual tells whatsoever (which is unlikely).
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all it takes is the spirit screwing up, that's the core problem
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Spirit is one of the killers which are actually rewarding to play, when you play her good.
The Spirit is fine and I dont understand people, who want to nerf her.
Just gid gud and enjoy domination.
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I don't blame people for using Spirit, she's fun and not everyone wants to be a joke with M1 killers in red ranks
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Clearly you don't know what a mindgame is.
If you have enough information to deduce the correct course of action then it isn't a mindgame, the entire point of a mindgame is that you are predicting a prediction. If you are bad at mindgames this leads to a 50/50. If you are good at mindgames then you will do better than random chance.
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Is what players want a counter to The Spirit that works 100% of the time?
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11/15 killers depend on survivors screwing up. Survmains: "fine and balanced."
Some of the rest are simply less dependant and SPIRIT/NURSE even reverse the situation. Survmains: "Reeee, nerf nurse/spirit, here have streamer stomp some noobs as evidence."
Depip squad !!! - "nobody plays like this".
Why is it survovors look at first time players for "balance" and at pros for killers? Damn double standard
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no
a mindgame involves removing cues for both parties. it involves a risk for both sides. when you mindgame someone, you risk losing out on the mindgame because you yourself cannot know what the other party is doing
spirit interactions are not risky for the spirit, and they are entirely guessing games for the survivor. this is why spirit has nothing to do with mindgames. spirit has cues, audio/visual hints as to where the survivor is going. the survivor has no input; the survivor has no counterplay
i just want to slap and shake every single person who insists that spirit has anything to do with "mindgames". huntress has to do with mindgames. will she wind up at the pallet? if she does and the survivor drops it, she gets a hit. if she does and the survivor doesn't drop it, she loses distance and the survivor gets another loop. that's a mindgame
moonwalking a high wall pallet loop is a mindgame. the survivor might fall for it, or they might read you correctly. the point is you don't know what they're going to do; you're not reacting, you're taking a chance that your mindgame will pay off
spirit does none of this. spirit has no counterplay
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@miaasma one very typical mindgame is what you do against Spirit. She phases, you try to guess where she goes, she tries to guess where you go. Do you go for the pallet? Do you double back? Do you go for that obvious vault? It's an exciting game, actually. You have to observe how she plays, and try to succesfully guess, based on her last moves and general playstyle. That IS the counterplay. And of course there's pallet looping for those loooong periods when her power is in cooldown.
I agree a lot of times it just comes down to blind luck, like any guessing game. But I don't think saying "she's got no counterplay" is right.
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she doesn't guess where you go, though. she can hear you, she can see scratch marks, and she can see your interactions with the environment (if you're injured and happen not to be running iron will, a spirit has to actively try to not properly locate you)
if it was a true guessing game for both sides, then yeah, i'd be inclined to agree that it was a mindgame, but it isn't, and people really need to stop framing spirit like using her power poses some huge risk for her. it is incredibly easy to track with her now that sounds work properly, meaning no guesswork is involved in locating survivors mid-phase. meanwhile, all the survivors are able to do is guess
being unpredictable doesn't work when the spirit has so many ways to locate you mid-phase, on top of being able to stand still until she chooses to use her power and move based on what she sees you do; the survivor has no way of knowing when she activates her power, so they have no idea when to start being unpredictable. this is why she is so strong; survivors cannot do anything but guess at what she's doing, which is why the "counterplay" to spirit is tantamount to just hoping she screws up tracking you
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The inherent problem with making reliable techs for spirit is that it will all9w survivours to play around her power and tjen sjebecomes no different the a pig trying to dash attack or a leatherface saw.
The key word reliable is going to crush peoples ability to play her. Shes strong because its a guessing game where spirit has an advantage with noises and tracking spmething you can sort of weaken with iron will.
Killers need to be strong like spirit in order to compete adding some audio queue or sfx that makes the spirit position obvious will turn her to an m1 killer as her power will onpy work on those who cant use the created weakness. Billy is falling off hard in high ranks and the only killers going strong is nurse and spirit (huntress might be making a comeback with the lullaby change).
Mark my words the minute you give survivour any means to detect spirit on loops is the minute you will push anpther killer out of high tier play.
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@miaasma Spirit is very highly played because she is so good and one of the only viable killers in higher ranks. It’s not like she is unbeatable and overpowered though, many Spirit’s I go against are not that great.
She just has such great potential that there is no reason to play any other killer besides the top three or four. You might hate going against a Spirit but can you really blame people for using her? Same as Billy, fun to play as but torture to go against.
Just the same as Nurse there is a lack of counterplay but everything people have mentioned to counter her would literally butcher her.
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It's almost a role reversal beings killers are usually guessing while survivors can pan their cameras at every turn.
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Just simple learn to play against Spirits, a Killer is only as good as it's player is.
My Anti-Spirit build: Sprint Burst, Iron Will, Lightweight and Spine Chill.
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But its not happening. You nerf her now whos left. Also its still create a fundamental exploitable weakness. It reminds me of the huntress lullaby problem. Where its to vulnerable to exploitation so they had to alter it to be non directional. No solution you suggest will make the spirits power have meaningful close range counterplay without basically making her an m1 killer at 4.4 ms speed.
Devs made no word or sugfestion towards slowing tje game down this request has been going on for at least 1 year and a half and nto once have they allided to increasing the time in game for killer. So no its not gonna work. Itsnot happening and maybe rather then nerfing spirit we take alook at bringing other killers to her level
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Spirit is the most balanced of all the killers, The second you add more counter play you'll destroy her potential.
Survivors not knowing or knowing very little of where she's coming from is what makes her strong. You change this and she'll become another loopable m1 killer.
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What do you mean? Survivors get just as much visual and audio telling as Spirit does. Terror radius, phasing sounds when she is outside of the terror radius, red stain etc.
The reward for risk is equal on both sides, if a Spirit uses her power and the survivor manages to avoid getting hit, that's like 30 seconds of a powerless M1 killer.
And before anyone mentions her add-ons that remove the phasing sounds and what not, that's the equivalent of Survivor's using iron will or dance with me.
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Personally I think she is ok, there is only one thing I would change: add a sound cue with very limited range (2-3 meters) when she uses her power. This because standing still at a pallet just to have the survivor jump into your arms is fun the first times, but it gets boring soon. In that case there is very little gameplay going on and the survivor can just hope the killer sucks.
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If it is a guessing game for the Survivors then it MUST also be a guessing game for the Spirit. Even if she literally saw your aura while using it.
Imagine the following common scenario:
A Survivor drops a normally safe pallet. The Spirit wants to hit that Survivor.
The Spirit can either phase around the pallet, or wait for the Survivor to vault.
The Survivor can either vault the pallet, or leave.
If the Spirit doesn't move then obviously she won't get the hit unless he vaults. If the Spirit tries to phase around after waiting if he runs then there is a good chance of not getting to the Survivor in time due to the extra distance he gains.
If the Spirit phases however, then she won't get the hit if the Survivor vaults once she's on the other side. Even if the Spirit could see the Survivor that doesn't mean she knows his next move.
So the Spirit gets a hit depending on if she successfully intercepts his next move. However she has to intercept his next move before he does it or it won't work.
The Survivor knows this and is going to try to predict what action the Spirit is going to cover.
Thus they are both trying to predict a prediction. That's a textbook case of WIFOM.
If there truly was no mindgame then the Survivor would have no guess to make.
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not really. mindgaming survivors at certain tiles is possible regardless of camera angle. the tiles that aren't mindgameable are low wall loops and infinite structures, and camera angles don't matter there
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@Zarathos I understand where you're coming from, but just because games can go quickly every now and then, doesn't mean we should refuse to acknowledge and fix other problems, too.
@NuclearBurrito The fact you said that the Spirit could see your aura and it'd still be a mindgame shows that you don't quite understand what a mindgame is. All you've done is describe a set of possible courses of action, but you've failed to address that the Spirit can determine which one you've taken, but not the survivor for the Spirit.
This is the crux of the problem. The Spirit is not predicting a prediction as she can react to the tells and know what your prediction was. The survivor does not have that luxury.
"If there truly was no mindgame, then the survivor would have no guess to make." Yet... there is no guess for the Spirit. Does that mean it's still a mindgame?
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Spirit has counter play, If her hair goes up you can tell shes spirit walking or vaulting , iron will decent perk alone , also a counter to her
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If her hair goes up you can tell shes phas walking , Camera angle does matter if her hair stands up you can clearly tell shes phase walking or breaking a pallet, just watch out for that and when she does that do a 360 where you where then walk away boom shes mindgamed
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@Centernova I don’t ever run any head pieces with Spirit’s hair sticking straight up. I usually run the messy bun. Not to mention, who is really gonna sit there a determine whether the Spirit is gonna vault or not?
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@miaasma Gotta love the Rick and Morty watching, Sun Tzu reading, 150IQ spirit mains. I love that she's a good killer but she really needs to get that "mindgame" 4D chess ######### out of her players heads. When I play spirit I think I've 4k'd every match in red ranks, and all I have to do is phase, test for collision, and then rely on sound. If they left me I'll hear it, if they're anywhere near me I can just run around till I bump into them, usually having enough time to test the area and still move towards sound after. I play wraith the most probably, and I find it hilarious that spirit has no kind of animation for popping out of phase, it can just be done whenever. So anyone saying to just slow walk away, you won't be getting very far when I decide to just end my phase and catch you creeping out the door. Don't want her nerfed but there's also very little counterplay. Maybe literally just the removing collision detection would be alright. I also don't think anyone would really complain if the other killers were buffed to her level, which is my way of balancing stuff in other projects.
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The counterplay to Spirit is not to run when she is phase walking. She sees scratch marks when phasing. Also, if you need to run, place down a pallet preemptively. Not only that but you can also hear her footsteps. If you can't see that as counterplay then watch TrU3T4lent and stop complaining about killers needing counterplay as if killer is bad enough. You need strong killers.
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about my position too; i don't want her gutted or made to be a weaker killer, i'm glad she's strong. i just don't like why she's strong. removing collision should have been done a while ago. and weaker killers receiving buffs is also a good idea (please make bubba better he's so sad)
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@Raptorrotas lol I am a main surv and don't want her to be nerfed, she is good the way she is. For me she is not OP and actually a fun killer to play with and against.
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@RexFulgur it's been explained multiple times why simply walking away doesn't work. Hell, the post directly above yours does exactly that. Read before posting.
You hear her footsteps? No, you don't. That feature almost never works even when she's coming to "outplay" you with Prayer Beads.
If you have nothing helpful to actually contribute, don't bother.
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Make her model disappear the moment she touches her power.
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only problem of spirit i can call she have no cooldown in close range
if she had more reduction of ability meter from canceling ability that was the answer of looping her
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It doesn't matter if you change direction because you move so slow while walking she simply has to exit phase fairly close to where she last knew you were walking and because when she exits phase walk she maintains her light speed for a second or two she just zooms right onto you and hits you.
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