Visit the Kill Switch Master List for more information on this and other current known issues: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/299-kill-switch-master-list
Camping Experiment: Results, Problems, and Solutions
Prologue
As many people know, camping can be quite frustrating for the survivors since they are on timeout for 2 minutes, helplessly. While killers are sometimes forced to camp under specific situations, other times they do it when it's unnecessary. However, there is a counter, that being gen-blitzkrieg, and that's what I've tested out in my experiment.
Will survivors be able to counter a camping killer?
Experiment
I camped for 3 games, using perks to help me alleviate the punishment:
Iron Grasp: Basement Transportation
Agitation: Basement Transportation
No One Escapes Death: Punish Gen-Blitzkrieg
Blood Warden: Punish Hook Rushes
I selected Huntress as my main killer since she is considered as the most balanced killer in my opinion.
Note: You could substitute Blood Warden for Ruin since it delays Gen-Blitzkrieg.
Also, I watched some YouTube videos about camping killer games because I couldn't keep doing these camping games by myself, it ruins the survivor experience.
Game 1:
Survivors were too greedy on this game, this costed them the game.
3 generators were completed.
Safety Pip
Game 2:
Survivors played pretty well, but No One Escapes Death helped me clean up for the most part.
5 generators were completed.
Safety Pip
Game 3:
Survivors were greedy, but not too greedy. However, since they kept feeding me, generators weren't getting done.
2 generators were completed.
De-pip
Conclusion
It's really difficult to punish camping if the killer knows what they are doing, but it's not impossible for the survivors to win.
Problem
In most games, mine included, killers are still managing to get quite a few sacrifices just by camping alone. The emblem punishments, and the survivors' counterplay doesn't work effectively to punish unnecessary camping enough.
Solution
The developers need to add actual game mechanics to prevent camping:
- Baseline Kindred
This could helps survivors coordinate better, and most ultimately, punish killers who camp unnecessarily.
- Decreased Sacrifice Speed
This penalty will activate when the killer is receiving the proximity penalty. The penalty should be a 50% decreased sacrificed speed, which doubles how long it takes to sacrifice a survivor.
- Repair Speed Increase
This bonus will activate when the killer is receiving the proximity penalty. The repair speed increase should be 100%, which cuts generator repair times in half.
We wouldn't need all of these solutions, maybe one or two would solve the problem.
Epilogue
Sure, at the end of the day, killers will still camp when it's unnecessary, but this should help survivors combat those killers just a little bit better in my opinion.
Feedback is appreciated.
Comments
-
Cute name blockers, but I'd love to see their equipment.
1 -
I might try this experiment. The proximity thing would need to deactivate if a survivor was near.
3 -
@NMCKE If you would like I can send your way all the results of my camping experience, since I often do it to salt mine. And with a fairly similar build; though I would say to truely get accurate results you need to to embody camping, i.e Leatherface, Insidious, Ruin and the two transport perks. And again, I'll be more than happy to dm you anything you need like results or post game chats, since some of us aren't as considerate as you ;) As for your suggestions, I agree that maybe extende the duration on hook, however increasing gen repair speed seems like alot to me.
0 -
I love your ideas and though I like them, I do not like the repair speed increase, makes no sense. Kindred being baseline and proximity lowers sacrifice speed is a great idea, maybe even highers luck at chance of escape. Gen repair speed highering will not solve the problem. What if a Survivor started to loop me around a hooked Survivor? That means the two others will use that to rush gens super fast.
0 -
This seems like an overkill which can be easily abused.
My solution would be something like increasing the hook time 2x, and increasing the required time to complete gens 1.5x. Also give the survivor who's being camped BP for distraction, since just increasing the hook time is also going to increase the timeout the camped survivor is going to be put in.
0 -
The fact you safety pip/depip says a lot though. This might be an effective way for killers to get kills against bad survivors but it won't help you rank up, and it won't be effective against survivors willing to commit to gen rush counter. You also really didn't get a lot of BP from it. The one game went to the very end so you got 29k, but in games where it didn't get that far you're not going to get a lot of BP. On the contrary, when you play fair and still 4k 4/5 gen survivors you will consistently walk out of games with 30k BP.
I think all you proved was that it's easy to camp low rank survivors.
3 -
Its very hard to punish camping as most of the problems around it stem from how the survivors react to it and how the emblems are setup.
A killer camping and not pipping would result in them being able to stay in a rank where it affects the newer players or less skilled ones.
The sacrifice time has been tested but it did not work as one stayed around the hook to prolong it while the others did gens very viable in SWF. If a survivor is near and it doesn't work it still sits in the hands of survivor and how they reacted to it.
Speeding up gens also means the gen rush becomes more of an issue.
You also have to consider those that don't care about pips or bloodpoints and just play as they want to kill. These players probably wont care about any punishment as long as they can still get that kill.
Maybe the way to sort it is to change how survivors play. If the survivor does gens when someone is being camped they get rewarded with as it adds points to each emblem and bloodpoints so its beneficial to punish it. It would only work if no survivor was within a set amount of distance.
On top of changing survivors change it so killers are highly rewarded for leaving the hook. How this is done needs some thought as more bloodpoints may not be enought to disuade players and some may move over to killer with that.
2 -
2/3 of your games "prove" that camping is only a problem for survivors because survivors are taking the bait.
Killermainbtw.
2 -
I always see people saying hook stall was tested and didn’t work. However, that test is not a valid counter argument at all. It’s simple, you tie it to the chaser emblem camping penalty. Did the test have that?! If another survivor is in proximity of the hook, OR the killer is in chase, it wouldn’t come into effect. That’s completely different than just a flat out “if killer is within x meters, the hook progression slows down”. As far as I know, that is what the test was? Of course that wouldn’t work. Things have changed since then.
OP brings up a valid issue that I always harp on also. “Gen blitzkrieg” counters camping, NOED counters “gen blitzkrieg”. Camping killers with NOED needs to be addressed by making a requirement for the killer to activate NOED. For example, only survivors who have been hooked are exposed to NOED. Killer wants to camp? Cool, you might only have one or nobody exposed.
Its also a problem that many survivors will feel like they have to go in for saves against campers, because doing gens and leaving will lead to little points and most likely no pip. It isn’t so much that they “fell for it”. I don’t find that to be fair.
1 -
Nice experiment. I think 3 games is a rather small sample to draw conclusions from though.
Seems to me like the problem lies in the survivors. As you mentioned: they were feeding you, not doing gens. The only reason just one of them escaped in "game 2" was because you found them after the gens were done and had NOED.
I don't see the point to punish killers that capitalize on survivors' poor judgement and coordination. It is not that hard to equip Borrowed Time and go for the save of just abandon your teammate and leave the trial with your life.
Sure, if you need me to continue testing I would be happy to oblige. I have been doing it free of charge all this time anyway ;-)
3 -
Disregarding the fact that three data points do not a trend make, in two out of three scenarios, according to your own assessment, survivors fed (i.e.: played poorly) and predictably lost because of it.
Your proposed solution, therefore, is to punish killers by buffing survivors and introducing a mechanic that was already proven to be a failure. Do I have that right?
5 -
You can gen rush and counter NOED anyway: Search for the hex totem AFTER you have done all the gens. Or do as I do when I play survivor. Wait untill another survivor gets downed and picked up, then run to an exit gate, open it and leave ;-)
0 -
Honestly, I think punishing killers who unessecary camp is not the right solution. You need a system that reliably detects unessecary camping in the first place. And banning camping isnt a solution either, since camping afterall can be the best strategy in some matches. I think it would be better to reward the hooked survivor for the progress done while being hooked, similar to how you are now rewarded for it while being chased. Either in BP, or emblem points, or maybe both could work. That way being camped is less annoying.
Of course you can always get potato teams that stop any progress as soon as anyone gets hooked. But in those cases you would have lost the match even without camp.
4 -
As I said an emblem change only helps with those who actually care about emblems. It doesn't solve it for theose who dont care and just want kills. This is why kindred being base is a good idea.
The test showed that a survivor could run around the hook making the timer not go down leaving the others to do gens. If the survivor around the hook stopped that timer scenario then it doesn't change how it plays out right now. That on top of a survivor standing just outside the area trying to bait the killer as in a lot of cases someone is close enough to run in.
A killer should only really be able to camp two players in reality as it's 4 mins of hook plus chase time in total and gens take 80s each.
3 gens 80s still leave 40s of hook time of the first camp to start another. The killer then needs to hunt, chase, hook and camp again.
The first one camped should result in 3 gens being done easily with another two on the way. Second camp should leave enough time to finish the other two, open the door and get out. It should also allow 3 or 4 totems to be done if you pass them which most do but just ignore them.
With Noed the killer has to leave and not camp to get the benefit so then it's technically no longer camping.
The problem is people dcing, suiciding on the hook and not doing gens which all reward it and The problem of doing gens and getting out is not actually rewarded also makes some want to bait the killer away.
Punishing a strat should reward the players for doing so more and not using the strat should reward a killer for not using it.
Since camping is a strat where its viable and encouraged by the devs in some circumstances I don't think a punishment is the right way to go.
2 -
Oh look at me, I did 3 games, preying on the common fact that many Survivors are altruistic to the point of being suicidal and thus feeding into camping. Let's nerf the Killers and punish them, because that's totally their fault, not the Survivors'.
4 -
What about a generator repair speed penalty if survivors don't engage in enough chases to discourage ending games in 2 minutes?
I'm kidding, I'm kidding 😁maybe, yeah jk
Anyway yeah camping and tunneling SUCKS especially if your team never even tries to help you. I've been the target of it and seen others get tunneled and camped quite a bit. Additional hook time sounds pretty good. Even if the survivors can't rescue the camped survivor with the additional time the killer has to stay by the camped hook that means the rest of the team can book it before they are next to get camped. It would raise problems at endgame for the Killer though
0 -
I have a much more simple solution. Change BP reward for unhooking someone to 0. The result would be 3 escapes in most cases.
3 -
It is not easy in solo queue for 3 gens plus two on the way in the first camp. Nobody just knows the killer is camping, it takes time to figure it out, which does go back to your point about Kindred being base. I’m a fan of that. At least even if the killer does stand just outside the aura range, only one survivor would be pulled off gens.
Im just saying that test proved absolutely nothing as it wasn’t done the proper way. I’d be curious to see it done with the chaser penalty. I do think base Kindred though is the better of the two ideas, that along with finding a way to where the game can still be worthwhile for the other 3 survivors if they choose to not take the bait of the camper.
Campers being able to get NOED though is still just nonsense. You have zero time to spend on totems when any one hook the killer gets can result in death. You have to stick to gens only.
0 -
This doesn’t fit the popular killer narrative of “its your fault you let NOED proc as you were too lazy to cleanse the totems.” This is said 99% of the time someone complains about NOED.
0 -
Yeah, I don't want to be a cliche.... so much. It has happened to me: Gen rushed + NOED cleased right after. You can't win them all
0 -
Really small sample size, plus 66% of your sample size being a result of overly altruistic Survivors. I wouldn't really say that's enough to support the proposal you put forth.
2 -
Camping is for noobs, doesnt matter if its fair or counterable.
Its a super unfun thing and needs to go.
Only noobs protect camping.
2 -
1. Would help
2. Something likes this was tested before and survivors abused the proximity survivors just need an 30 seconds life on hook
3. Just straight overkill
0 -
Please don't use the term "Blitzkrieg". This is really offensive, at least from an European point of view.
1 -
No it's not.
4 -
@George_Soros I'm not going to argue about whether the same term should be used for a military "strategy" that is widely known for being used by a racist regime and burdening the relationship between neighbouring European states until today and for doing an objective in a video game.
The answer is clear.
0 -
Il add a suggestion. If the killer is in chase and in in proximity of the hook, the negative affects are cancelled, as the camping is justified
1 -
I think this is a nice small-scale study @NMCKE! As some have mentioned, there are some problems with your population. Ideally, you would need a nice spread among all ranks and from different regions to ensure unbiased data. I understand from your post that you didn’t like to camp, so I understand why your sample is so small. What you did find, bias or not, is that there may be more to it than ”just doing gen”.
0 -
Do this experiment or thing you call experiment at rank 1.
Not camping or tunneling at rank 1 = nice killer = lose game.
If you think a killer is camping do gens, 5 mins matches are the meta right now, ignore EVERYTHING besides gens. EZ GAMES.
0 -
I think this would be a good idea, since players who are skilled enough do not need camping at all. Unless you hooked someone right near an open door, ofc. But then again, I fear this would not solve the issue. I have had a match just yesterday, in which a cheap russian Billy was just camping hooked people. He placed himself in a bee line from the hooked guy, far enough not to lose any points and with his chainsaw activated. Any survivor who would come, he would sprint right at them. I can try to understand people saying that there needs to be an incentive for not camping rather than punishing it. As far as sharing their opinion, though, I think it should, by all means, be punished. One common thing to any non-toxic CoD player is the fact that there are always people camping, always. Devs of that very same franchise keep coming up with quotes like: "We have improved the verticality of our maps in order to reduce camping". Even though they rarely come to do anything good about it, they understand it is a problem. Some people call that a strategy, but it really isn't. A strategy requires thinking, which is something that camping or chasing the same guy until you finally hook him do not need at all. On the other hand, if you leave the hook and the guy gets saved, you know that:
- A: At least two people, if not more, are not working on gens.
- B: At least two people, if not more, will be in proximity of said hook, making it easier for you to spot them.
0 -
Boy, are you gonna be upset when you listen to Blitzkrieg Bop on the radio.
2 -
Actually, these mechanics would only activate if the killer is receiving the proximity penalty for their chaser emblem.
This means the killer has to be within a 16 meter range to the hooked survivor, while there aren't any survivors within a 16 meter range to the hooked survivor.
Once this happens for 15 seconds, I think, you'll receive the proximity penalty for your chaser emblem, and receive some of the punishments I've listed above. If a survivor ever tries to contest the hook while the penalty is activate, it will slowly dissipate in a 3 second window and everything will reset.
0 -
No matter how much you dress this up, it's still a mechanic that was objectively proven to be a failure.
3 seconds, you say? Fine, just dip in and out of the 16-meter range, which forces the killer to remain in that range to defend.
And the best (worst) part? This idea - any idea that's based on punishment, in fact - will only affect people who camp when survivors make it worthwhile, because the ones who do it to grief will do it regardless.
1 -
Alright, remove the 3 seconds, and make it instant 😉
0 -
Stay at 17 meters.
1 -
Then you're feeding the killer because only 2 survivors are progressing the game, and what if you don't correctly judge the 16 meters? You might accidentally walk into the 16 meter range, and screw you team up.
0 -
Survivors feeding the killer is cause to punish the killer further, according to your own thread, so it'd still work in the survivors' favor.
1 -
Not really, the killer would likely benefit more because the survivor is not using their time wisely. Once that hooked survivor is sacrificed, that's already disaster for the survivors because the killer is on their way to their next sacrifices.
Killers shouldn't be getting anymore than a 2K with camping only, period.
0 -
But in your OP, despite two out of the three scenarios being a result of the killer (you) benefiting from the survivors' mistakes, you still think that's evidence that the killers need to be punished for camping.
1 -
Oh, I see where you're coming now! Yes, because beginners don't know what exactly to do in that situation, and even if they did, like that experienced group, I have my NOED to get me my other sacrifices.
No One Escapes Death adds 60 seconds plus travel time towards the survivors, if they want to cleanse it. However, you can't gen-blitzkrieg and do bones, you simply don't have enough time for it.
0 -
If beginners are the problem, then provide incentives for killers not to camp. Besides griefers, they're the only ones who camp even when it provides no tactical advantage.
It's 70 seconds plus travel time, while a generator is 80 seconds. If they've finished even a single generator by the time you catch one of them, then this can all be done simultaneously. 4 gens split between 2 people, plus a third hunting totems. It's not just +70 seconds, like some people may erroneously claim.
Lastly, if NOED allows you to get multiple kills, then the survivors made mistakes. End of story.
1 -
i made a similar post but not to this extent lol i cant be bothered , i know ppl wont admit camping is too good most of the times
2 -
It takes 12 seconds to break a totem, that's 60 seconds with 5 totems. Assuming you have to walk around the map, that will probably add a lot more time to the survivors' hands.
Also, yeah, it can be incentives, what are you thinking? Any ideas?
0 -
Unless they changed something and I didn't read it, it should still be 14 seconds per totem, for a total of 70 seconds.
Everyone has had ideas on how to incentivize killers to leave the hook, but survivors don't want any of that stuff. They don't want to meet killers halfway, they just want to have their cake and eat it too. Many people have suggested incentives. You need only search.
1 -
You are both wrong. It's 14 seconds.
Also, you wouldn't even need to use Kindreds effect, since that sometimes gives information that not even SWF would have access to.
Just inform every survivor of which survivors are in the Killer's terror radius, and then rework insidious to not be so campy
0 -
That was a typo on my part. You can tell because 16x5=80, whereas 14x5=70 (the time I said it was). I'll correct it.
1 -
Even as someone who is like 80% survivor main, I would be against the 3rd one. I don't think extra gen speed is necessary.
That being said (and here's where the killer mains ignore me), there's no ACTUAL counter to camping that ALSO results in have a gg.
People always say "well if the killer is camping, just do gens". The issue with that statement is that you have to actually FIGURE OUT that the killer is gonna play like a dick first before you say "whatever, let's just do gens and let that person die".
It's not an immediate "Oh the person is on hook, time to go do gens and ignore them." That's an ######### thing to do. So one person goes in for the save and finds out "oh the killer is still here, let's see if I can get them away." They try and a 2nd person goes in, then they discover "wow, the killer is didn't follow them so let me take a hit and try to get their attention" At THAT point, you find out this killer is really not chasing anyone and they're committed to playing scummy. By that time, person on hook is either almost or already in struggle and at best, one person is on a gen. That's the reality of how most games will be playing out because people aren't selfish jerks and want to give everyone a fair chance to play the freaking game.
So now you make a last minute decision to "gen rush", but by that time, one person is almost dead, a 2nd person probably took a hit and ran away, and you may have a gen and a half done if the person got caught really early. So the whole "jUsT Do GeNs" idea is something you decide as a team from a crappy position, not a position of power.
Now I already know some people will respond with "Well that's your fault and you need to play more selfishly"
And I hope I never have to come into contact with you in real life because you must be a real fun person and a team player XD
2 -
"survivors just want to have their cake and eat it too"
meanwhile every hypothetical option provided has been shot down by most killer mains. lol
(granted the 3rd, gen speed increase, is a bad one... the other two could be tweaked and tested)
there will never be a consensus on this issue, just know that if you're the type to actively camp and tunnel for no other reason than to troll or ruin someones game... you're pretty pathetic.
0 -
Sure, just block out the names! :)
Also, you shouldn't camp for the salt. :(
0 -
Because the options being provided are bad. Survivors, however, are opposed to the very idea of rewarding killers for not camping (that being the middleground, since neither side likes camping, griefers excluded). All they want is punishments for a tactic that they themselves feed into! It's absolutely mental.
0
