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TydeTyme's exhaustion video

IronWolf115
IronWolf115 Member Posts: 672
in General Discussions

OK, let me start by saying

  1. I like TydeTyme and agree on a majority of things with him
  2. I am a killer main

So with this in mind let me say that I disagree with his thoughts on the exhaustion nerf.

For those who may be unfamiliar with what I am talking about basically in Tyde's recent video he said that the OVERALL exhaustion nerf was a good thing and that sprint burst was not the only problem. If you want to hear what he had to say in full context then I of course urge you to go and watch his video.
Now I absolutely feel that SB needs a nerf, no questions asked, BUT I don't feel the way to do this is by nerfing ALL the exhaustion perks because ultimately it is counter productive. If all the exhaustion perks get nerfed equally, then doesn't that still make SB the best perk out of those to use? Now, Tyde's argument is that the other perks not only do what sprint burst does, but actually do more. Now this is true to an extent however there is a really big caveat to this: They are all situational.

Lithe: You must vault over something
Balanced Landing: You must fall from a height
Dead Hard: You must be injured
Sprint Burst: No stipulation, just don't be exhausted ( Just like the other perks )

Now with Sprint Burst, even if I know you have it, there is simply nothing I can do to counter it. Compare this to the others where I will always see when you are trying to activate it, whether it be because you are aiming to vault something, aiming to fall from something or if you used Dead hard earlier, I will then know to just wait till you use it and then hit you right after. I can then just plan ahead by going around the vault or the drop zone so that your perk has much less effect against me.

Now to just finalize this Tyde used the example of the Nurse being countered by Dead Hard, which is true absolutely, but now name me another killer that is hard countered by Dead Hard. The only reason it is a counter to Nurse is because of the nature of her playstyle, this does NOT make it a counter to ALL killers.

Tyde mentions other things in the video that I absolutely agree with such as generator time and the overall power of the killer, these all absolutely need to be fixed. But to the topic at hand I have to completely disagree with Tyde, I as a killer main have never thought " Damn Dead Hard is annoying as hell ", but I do feel that way about SB. SB needs to be nerfed, but for me ONLY sprint burst out of the exhaustion perks needs this. As I say, if ALL the perks are getting nerfed, then ultimately Sprint Burst will still be the best one to use out of them

I hope this didn't seem too rant-like for that is not my intenton, I simply don't agree that the way to nerf a perk is by nerfing it's ENTIRE category. It would be like nerfing Nurses calling just because people have a problem with BBQ, it would make no sense

Thanks for reading, and of course give your own opinion on the situation!

«13

Comments

  • IronWolf115
    IronWolf115 Member Posts: 672

    @RemoveSWF said:
    Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor.

    Bullshit.

    You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled.

    No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks.

    In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass.

    First of all, as I CLEARLY said I agree that the game is unbalanced and that killer should be buffed and survivors nerfed, so I politely ask that you don't come in shouting about these things.
    Second, I agree that crutch perks ( DS, SB, SC etc. ) should go, but I don't feel that Dead Hard, balanced and Lithe are crutch perks because of their caveats, they are not something that can be used at will, unlike SB.
    Finally, the fundamental problems of DBD do not lie in these 3 exhaustion perks, so these perks getting nerfed will change almost nothing for killers.

  • IronWolf115
    IronWolf115 Member Posts: 672

    @ThePloopz said:
    The salt is going to be real in this thread

    Yup, I can tell

  • Unknown
    Unknown
    This content has been removed.
  • Paddy4583
    Paddy4583 Member Posts: 864
    RemoveSWF said:

    @Paddy4583 said:
    You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen 

    *you're

    Good retort well done 
  • deadwolfwalking
    deadwolfwalking Member Posts: 624

    @RemoveSWF said:

    @Paddy4583 said:
    You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen 

    *you're

    *THEY'RE

    you're the killer. remember?

  • Paddy4583
    Paddy4583 Member Posts: 864
    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:
    RemoveSWF said:

    Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor.

    Bullshit.

    You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled.

    No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks.

    In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass.

    Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use. 
    I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen.

    tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing.

    Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know

    Oh so neither are the above mentioned for survivors just so you know, I forget how easy it is to just change the meaning of a word to suit your position 
  • IronWolf115
    IronWolf115 Member Posts: 672

    @Paddy4583 said:
    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

    RemoveSWF said:

    Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor.

Bullshit.

You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled.

No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks.

In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass.



Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use. 

    I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen.

    tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing.

    Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know

    Oh so neither are the above mentioned for survivors just so you know, I forget how easy it is to just change the meaning of a word to suit your position 

    A crutch, is a perk or item that gives you power without consequence, BBQ you still have to chase survivors down and down them, it doesn't do it for you. Insta-downs have some sort of downsides to them, Billy his very liitle control during his sprint, Leatherface has tpo chase survivors down before his chainsaw is useful and Myers Insta down is limited. Speed add-ons are actually getting nerfed with tinkerer changes and even then, with speed add-ons you have to still meet the conditions of if you didn't have the add-ons

  • Paddy4583
    Paddy4583 Member Posts: 864
    FrenziedRoach said:

    Funny, as somebody who prefers Lithe, I can't agree with you.

    SB limits my own mobility between chases. When it's on cooldown, I have to walk. Lithe gives me the freedom to run anytime I want - and vaults are the easiest thing in the world to find - especially since it works over pallets.

    All these perks must always be a "once per chase" perk, PEROID

    I would agree if scratch marks were removed and killers had less speed.
  • IronWolf115
    IronWolf115 Member Posts: 672

    @FrenziedRoach said:
    Funny, as somebody who prefers Lithe, I can't agree with you.

    SB limits my own mobility between chases. When it's on cooldown, I have to walk. Lithe gives me the freedom to run anytime I want - and vaults are the easiest thing in the world to find - especially since it works over pallets.

    All these perks must always be a "once per chase" perk, PEROID

    See this is fine, a disagreement is much better to work with rather than an accusation, I personally feel SB is worse because for example if I am Leatherface and I catch someone off guard, I feel I deserve that chainsaw, however if they run SB they can actually get away and my discovery meant nothing. I find this problem is not part of Lithe for example where you have to actually do something to activate it.

  • FrenziedRoach
    FrenziedRoach Member Posts: 2,600

    @Paddy4583 said:
    FrenziedRoach said:
    I would agree if scratch marks were removed and killers had less speed.

    Killer's speed only comes into play when you are running in a straight line. It's less impactful on repeated corners due to their slightly larger collision capsule and the way first person navigates.

    A person like me who runs information gathering perks almost always knows where the killer is, and thus knows when to not leave scratch marks.

  • Paddy4583
    Paddy4583 Member Posts: 864
    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:
    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

    RemoveSWF said:

    Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor.

Bullshit.

You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled.

No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks.

In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass.



Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use. 

    I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen.

    tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing.

    Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know

    Oh so neither are the above mentioned for survivors just so you know, I forget how easy it is to just change the meaning of a word to suit your position 

    A crutch, is a perk or item that gives you power without consequence, BBQ you still have to chase survivors down and down them, it doesn't do it for you. Insta-downs have some sort of downsides to them, Billy his very liitle control during his sprint, Leatherface has tpo chase survivors down before his chainsaw is useful and Myers Insta down is limited. Speed add-ons are actually getting nerfed with tinkerer changes and even then, with speed add-ons you have to still meet the conditions of if you didn't have 

    No one ever defines a crutch as a consequence related thing. A crutch is something a person depends on hence the term crutch.


  • IronWolf115
    IronWolf115 Member Posts: 672

    @Paddy4583 said:
    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

RemoveSWF said:

    Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor. Bullshit. You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled. No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks. In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass. Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use. 

    I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen.

tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing.



Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know

    Oh so neither are the above mentioned for survivors just so you know, I forget how easy it is to just change the meaning of a word to suit your position 

    A crutch, is a perk or item that gives you power without consequence, BBQ you still have to chase survivors down and down them, it doesn't do it for you. Insta-downs have some sort of downsides to them, Billy his very liitle control during his sprint, Leatherface has tpo chase survivors down before his chainsaw is useful and Myers Insta down is limited. Speed add-ons are actually getting nerfed with tinkerer changes and even then, with speed add-ons you have to still meet the conditions of if you didn't have 

    No one ever defines a crutch as a consequence related thing. A crutch is something a person depends on hence the term crutch.

    Yes' and this dependence comes from lack of consequence

  • Paddy4583
    Paddy4583 Member Posts: 864
    FrenziedRoach said:

    @Paddy4583 said:
    FrenziedRoach said:
    I would agree if scratch marks were removed and killers had less speed.

    Killer's speed only comes into play when you are running in a straight line. It's less impactful on repeated corners due to their slightly larger collision capsule and the way first person navigates.

    A person like me who runs information gathering perks almost always knows where the killer is, and thus knows when to not leave scratch marks.

    You’re original post was talking about during a chase! Not in general.
    of your being chased you leave a trail behind you and if your escape perks can only be used once as you stated, then I said I’d agree if the scratch marks were removed from the chase not in general.
  • EclipseDarkstar
    EclipseDarkstar Member Posts: 47

    Honestly the biggest problem with all of these perks (Minus Dead Hard, which I don't think needs a nerf, especially since it kinda already just got one) is that their existence makes problems that are already problems just that much worse. Namely, maps and pallet/window placement. Sprint Burst is crazy because pallets are too abundant, Lithe is crazy because window looping is pretty impossible to beat without Bamboozle if the survivor is smart, etc. So while I would agree that these perks are way too powerful, I don't think it's as much because of themselves, but rather the state of the rest of the game.

    Here's what I would rather they do. Just make a mechanic where you can only use it once per chase, but the exhaustion still recovers, maybe with a little leniency if the chase is broken since it's too easy to break a chase just by breaking line of sight (Part of why Bloodlust sucks, by the way, too many times I've followed the survivor perfectly and my Bloodlust just vanishes). Also fix the damn hitboxes so that when I hit someone who's sprinting, my weapon doesn't harmlessly glance them while I suffer a lengthy cooldown. Then perhaps remove about a quarter of the pallets on each map that isn't Lery's or Rotten Fields. Also double pallets are a complete no-no. That could be a good start to fixing the balance. Not perfect, but a start.

  • EclipseDarkstar
    EclipseDarkstar Member Posts: 47

    PS. Some really big problems with the current mechanics nobody seems to be addressing are how it affects two things; Killer addons that apply exhaustion, and Vigil. The former being too powerful, and the latter being completely nullified in effectiveness. Something needs to be changed about those if the current mechanics stick, because the only thing they won't nerf into the ground is Sprint Burst. Which was kinda the center of the rebalance anyway.

  • IronWolf115
    IronWolf115 Member Posts: 672

    @EclipseDarkstar said:
    Honestly the biggest problem with all of these perks (Minus Dead Hard, which I don't think needs a nerf, especially since it kinda already just got one) is that their existence makes problems that are already problems just that much worse. Namely, maps and pallet/window placement. Sprint Burst is crazy because pallets are too abundant, Lithe is crazy because window looping is pretty impossible to beat without Bamboozle if the survivor is smart, etc. So while I would agree that these perks are way too powerful, I don't think it's as much because of themselves, but rather the state of the rest of the game.

    Here's what I would rather they do. Just make a mechanic where you can only use it once per chase, but the exhaustion still recovers, maybe with a little leniency if the chase is broken since it's too easy to break a chase just by breaking line of sight (Part of why Bloodlust sucks, by the way, too many times I've followed the survivor perfectly and my Bloodlust just vanishes). Also fix the damn hitboxes so that when I hit someone who's sprinting, my weapon doesn't harmlessly glance them while I suffer a lengthy cooldown. Then perhaps remove about a quarter of the pallets on each map that isn't Lery's or Rotten Fields. Also double pallets are a complete no-no. That could be a good start to fixing the balance. Not perfect, but a start.

    I completely agree, and with you mentioning it the biggest problem I have with the exhaustion nerf is actually Dead Hard. We can definitely have a discussion about where Balanced landing and Lithe are at, but Dead Hard is fine so this just unnecessarily hurts it

  • Paddy4583
    Paddy4583 Member Posts: 864
    edited July 2018
    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:
    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

RemoveSWF said:

    Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor. Bullshit. You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled. No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks. In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass. Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use. 

    I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen.

tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing.



Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know

    Oh so neither are the above mentioned for survivors just so you know, I forget how easy it is to just change the meaning of a word to suit your position 

    A crutch, is a perk or item that gives you power without consequence, BBQ you still have to chase survivors down and down them, it doesn't do it for you. Insta-downs have some sort of downsides to them, Billy his very liitle control during his sprint, Leatherface has tpo chase survivors down before his chainsaw is useful and Myers Insta down is limited. Speed add-ons are actually getting nerfed with tinkerer changes and even then, with speed add-ons you have to still meet the conditions of if you didn't have 

    No one ever defines a crutch as a consequence related thing. A crutch is something a person depends on hence the term crutch.

    Yes' and this dependence comes from lack of consequence

     Not at all, you can say they all have a degree of consequence, and therefore they can’t fall into your definition.
  • IronWolf115
    IronWolf115 Member Posts: 672

    @Paddy4583 said:
    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said: RemoveSWF said:

    Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor.    Bullshit.    You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled.    No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks.    In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass.        Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use. 

    I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen. tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing. Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know

    Oh so neither are the above mentioned for survivors just so you know, I forget how easy it is to just change the meaning of a word to suit your position 



A crutch, is a perk or item that gives you power without consequence, BBQ you still have to chase survivors down and down them, it doesn't do it for you. Insta-downs have some sort of downsides to them, Billy his very liitle control during his sprint, Leatherface has tpo chase survivors down before his chainsaw is useful and Myers Insta down is limited. Speed add-ons are actually getting nerfed with tinkerer changes and even then, with speed add-ons you have to still meet the conditions of if you didn't have 

    No one ever defines a crutch as a consequence related thing. A crutch is something a person depends on hence the term crutch.

    Yes' and this dependence comes from lack of consequence

     Not at all, you can say they all have a degree of consequence, and therefore they can’t fall into your definition at all.

    you defined limited which some of these are, you said they are being nurfed as are these so they no longer meet your definition

    I would ask you then to tell me the consequence of Decisive strike, sprint burst and Self care, vs the consequence of BBQ and insta down attacks

  • Paddy4583
    Paddy4583 Member Posts: 864
    edited July 2018
    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:
    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said: RemoveSWF said:

    Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor.    Bullshit.    You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled.    No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks.    In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass.        Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use. 

    I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen. tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing. Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know

    Oh so neither are the above mentioned for survivors just so you know, I forget how easy it is to just change the meaning of a word to suit your position 



A crutch, is a perk or item that gives you power without consequence, BBQ you still have to chase survivors down and down them, it doesn't do it for you. Insta-downs have some sort of downsides to them, Billy his very liitle control during his sprint, Leatherface has tpo chase survivors down before his chainsaw is useful and Myers Insta down is limited. Speed add-ons are actually getting nerfed with tinkerer changes and even then, with speed add-ons you have to still meet the conditions of if you didn't have 

    No one ever defines a crutch as a consequence related thing. A crutch is something a person depends on hence the term crutch.

    Yes' and this dependence comes from lack of consequence

     Not at all, you can say they all have a degree of consequence, and therefore they can’t fall into your definition at all.

    you defined limited which some of these are, you said they are being nurfed as are these so they no longer meet your definition

    I would ask you then to tell me the consequence of Decisive strike, sprint burst and Self care, vs the consequence of BBQ and insta down attacks

    I don’t need to you defined it yourself. You claim limited as a consequence and some of these are limited, you defined control as a consequence some of these can’t be controlled, you stated some were being nurfed and so are these, so by your own definition they aren’t crutches.

    Billy himself is a crutch he’s pretty much all you see at high ranks? It’s relyed on and there for a crutch.
  • IronWolf115
    IronWolf115 Member Posts: 672

    @Paddy4583 said:
    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said: IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:    RemoveSWF said:

    Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor. Bullshit. You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled. No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks. In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass. Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use. 

    I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen.    tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing.        Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know

    Oh so neither are the above mentioned for survivors just so you know, I forget how easy it is to just change the meaning of a word to suit your position  A crutch, is a perk or item that gives you power without consequence, BBQ you still have to chase survivors down and down them, it doesn't do it for you. Insta-downs have some sort of downsides to them, Billy his very liitle control during his sprint, Leatherface has tpo chase survivors down before his chainsaw is useful and Myers Insta down is limited. Speed add-ons are actually getting nerfed with tinkerer changes and even then, with speed add-ons you have to still meet the conditions of if you didn't have 

    No one ever defines a crutch as a consequence related thing. A crutch is something a person depends on hence the term crutch.



Yes' and this dependence comes from lack of consequence



 Not at all, you can say they all have a degree of consequence, and therefore they can’t fall into your definition at all.

    you defined limited which some of these are, you said they are being nurfed as are these so they no longer meet your definition

    I would ask you then to tell me the consequence of Decisive strike, sprint burst and Self care, vs the consequence of BBQ and insta down attacks

    I don’t need to you defined it yourself. You claim limited as a consequence and some of these are limited, you defined control as a consequence some of these can’t be controlled, you stated some were being nurfed and so are these, so by your own definition they aren’t crutches 

    I have argued that Lithe, Balanced landing and dead hard are limited yes, and I stand by this. The topic you and I are discussing though are crutches. Decisive strike is limited by nothing, thats why it is a get out of jail free card. Self care is limited by nothing, it is and infinite and constant way for you to heal yourself. And sprint Burst may have limitations on the exhaustion but there is no limitation to it's activation, you can dodge many attacks that should have killed you just by using sprint burst.

    Your argument is that BBQ as an example is a crutch perk. How so? It is an aura perk that enables you to act on the location of a survivor, but it does not just immediately down them for you, that is something you must do of your own volition.

    And if you mean that DS and Self care are getting nerfed then you are indeed correct, but the fact right now is

    1. When?
    2. Will the nerf be enough

    At this very moment DS and SC are the be all end all perks in the game, BBQ and Insta down attacks are not

  • Unknown
    Unknown
    This content has been removed.
  • IronWolf115
    IronWolf115 Member Posts: 672

    Billy himself is a crutch he’s pretty much all you see at high ranks? It’s relyed on and there for a crutch.

    Forgot to respond to this, Billy is not a crutch again for the reason that Billy is FAR from unbeatable. Billy suffers from loops and pallets just like most other killers. And just so you know, Nurse is actually better than Billy, so if killers were crutches then wouldn't everyone play Nurse?

  • IronWolf115
    IronWolf115 Member Posts: 672

    @MegaWaffle said:

    @ThePloopz said:
    The salt is going to be real in this thread

    Its because people are sharing opinions, the one thing society can't stand.

    Thank you for some rational understanding

  • Paddy4583
    Paddy4583 Member Posts: 864
    IronWolf115 said:

    Billy himself is a crutch he’s pretty much all you see at high ranks? It’s relyed on and there for a crutch.

    Forgot to respond to this, Billy is not a crutch again for the reason that Billy is FAR from unbeatable. Billy suffers from loops and pallets just like most other killers. And just so you know, Nurse is actually better than Billy, so if killers were crutches then wouldn't everyone play Nurse?

    And survivors are far from unbeatable. Your skirting round and the nurse is played the same at high ranks. So your point is still void.
    your redefining to fit your argument and by redefining your changing your argument either way you either class them as crutches or yoir
    saying neither are crutches 
  • IronWolf115
    IronWolf115 Member Posts: 672

    @Paddy4583 said:
    IronWolf115 said:

    Billy himself is a crutch he’s pretty much all you see at high ranks? It’s relyed on and there for a crutch.

    Forgot to respond to this, Billy is not a crutch again for the reason that Billy is FAR from unbeatable. Billy suffers from loops and pallets just like most other killers. And just so you know, Nurse is actually better than Billy, so if killers were crutches then wouldn't everyone play Nurse?

    And survivors are far from unbeatable. Your skirting round and the nurse is played the same at high ranks. So your point is still void.
    your redefining to fit your argument and by redefining your changing your argument either way you either class them as crutches or yoir
    saying neither are crutches 

    The problem is that survivors are FAR too hard to beat, and you said Hillbilly only, not Nurse so I would ask you to include that when you write a comment. I also am to notice that after all these posts you are STILL to tell me why BBQ is a crutch perk?

  • Paddy4583
    Paddy4583 Member Posts: 864
    edited July 2018
    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:
    IronWolf115 said:

    Billy himself is a crutch he’s pretty much all you see at high ranks? It’s relyed on and there for a crutch.

    Forgot to respond to this, Billy is not a crutch again for the reason that Billy is FAR from unbeatable. Billy suffers from loops and pallets just like most other killers. And just so you know, Nurse is actually better than Billy, so if killers were crutches then wouldn't everyone play Nurse?

    And survivors are far from unbeatable. Your skirting round and the nurse is played the same at high ranks. So your point is still void.
    your redefining to fit your argument and by redefining your changing your argument either way you either class them as crutches or yoir
    saying neither are crutches 

    The problem is that survivors are FAR too hard to beat, and you said Hillbilly only, not Nurse so I would ask you to include that when you write a comment. I also am to notice that after all these posts you are STILL to tell me why BBQ is a crutch perk?

    I didn’t say hillbilly only, I used him as an example, I didn’t limit anything.
    You THINK nurse is better but she’s harder to play which is why majority use Billy.

    There is no point you can’t stay consistent in your definitions so it’s irrelevant. Your defending the undefendable which is why you can’t remain consistent.

    you believe survivors are hard to beat, it’s not an actual fact though.
  • MegaWaffle
    MegaWaffle Member Posts: 4,172

    @Paddy4583 said:
    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said: IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:    RemoveSWF said:

    Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor. Bullshit. You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled. No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks. In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass. Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use. 

    I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen.    tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing.        Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know

    Oh so neither are the above mentioned for survivors just so you know, I forget how easy it is to just change the meaning of a word to suit your position  A crutch, is a perk or item that gives you power without consequence, BBQ you still have to chase survivors down and down them, it doesn't do it for you. Insta-downs have some sort of downsides to them, Billy his very liitle control during his sprint, Leatherface has tpo chase survivors down before his chainsaw is useful and Myers Insta down is limited. Speed add-ons are actually getting nerfed with tinkerer changes and even then, with speed add-ons you have to still meet the conditions of if you didn't have 

    No one ever defines a crutch as a consequence related thing. A crutch is something a person depends on hence the term crutch.



Yes' and this dependence comes from lack of consequence



 Not at all, you can say they all have a degree of consequence, and therefore they can’t fall into your definition at all.

    you defined limited which some of these are, you said they are being nurfed as are these so they no longer meet your definition

    I would ask you then to tell me the consequence of Decisive strike, sprint burst and Self care, vs the consequence of BBQ and insta down attacks

    I don’t need to you defined it yourself. You claim limited as a consequence and some of these are limited, you defined control as a consequence some of these can’t be controlled, you stated some were being nurfed and so are these, so by your own definition they aren’t crutches.

    Billy himself is a crutch he’s pretty much all you see at high ranks? It’s relyed on and there for a crutch.

    You can't make a statement and then ask the other person to come up with the reasoning behind it. If you cannot name the consequence for him why would he be inclined to defend your point of view? There is no consequence to DS. If you run DS you are A: Going to be ignored because a free escape isn't worth chasing you for, or B: Going to get slugged, giving you more time to be saved. SB gives you a free chance to start looping if you are found because the speed boost negates being caught off guard. It might limit your ability to run around when not in a chase but if you know the killer is chasing someone else then that 40s cooldown doesn't matter and you can run freely. I agree Dead Hard is fine the way it is and the exhaustion nerf hurts that perk most of all. Lithe lacks the initial speed boost from SB but vaults are very easy to find and on some maps where SB would cause you to lose the boost to speed Lithe gives you that amazing escape. Self Care means you can erase all negative effects from a chase if the killer looses you or gives up on you making him waste 100% of his time. If you had to find someone else to heal you then that would be wasting your teams time but self care negates even that possible downside.

    BBQ and Chili requires you to hunt distant targets down who can A: Hide behind generators to avoid the aura or B: Just leave in a different direction after 3-4 seconds. BBQ only works well if the survivor you are after doesn't know you have the perk or isn't very good at basic strategy, making it possible to waste your time leaving a hook to find someone who is no longer there. Instant downs, NOED, only works at end game assuming the totems have not been destroyed. So its a perk that may not even have the opportunity to be used during a match and you cannot play around it being destroyed because you can't see the totems. If you are including limited add-ons in this argument (be they survivor or killer) I don't think that's a reasonable argument. The point of add-ons are to give you a fun reward for playing and finding the offering in a bloodweb. They are meant to be limited items that help twist a match or two. The only real problem here is that the game is 1 v 4 meaning you are more likely to have survivors using an amazing add on than a killer, that's a statistical fact.

    So yes the survivor perks mentioned have far lower consequences (if any) then the killer perks being argued. And in the case where you get a BBQ billy on that huge open corn map (this instant I do see it being very strong) is incredibly rare and not something you can claim to be OP. The fact is this game will never find a perfect balance because the community is so unevenly split. You theoretically have 4 survivor oriented players per every 1 killer oriented player making opinions clash too frequently.

  • IronWolf115
    IronWolf115 Member Posts: 672

    @Paddy4583 said:
    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

    IronWolf115 said:

    Billy himself is a crutch he’s pretty much all you see at high ranks? It’s relyed on and there for a crutch.



Forgot to respond to this, Billy is not a crutch again for the reason that Billy is FAR from unbeatable. Billy suffers from loops and pallets just like most other killers. And just so you know, Nurse is actually better than Billy, so if killers were crutches then wouldn't everyone play Nurse?



And survivors are far from unbeatable. Your skirting round and the nurse is played the same at high ranks. So your point is still void.

    your redefining to fit your argument and by redefining your changing your argument either way you either class them as crutches or yoir

    saying neither are crutches 

    The problem is that survivors are FAR too hard to beat, and you said Hillbilly only, not Nurse so I would ask you to include that when you write a comment. I also am to notice that after all these posts you are STILL to tell me why BBQ is a crutch perk?

    I didn’t say hillbilly only, I used him as an example, I didn’t limit anything. There is no point you can’t stay consistent in your definitions so it’s irrelevant. Your defending the undefendable which is why you can’t remain consistent 

    You said and I quote "Billy himself is a crutch he's pretty much all you see at high ranks"
    You DID NOT say " Killers LIKE Hillbilly are a crutch"
    And AGAIN you display an inability to explain you logic behind BBQ being crutch.
    It's not a case that your talking point is bad, it's that your talking point is non-existant. And I have little time for people who cannot defend their own stances.

    Good day to you

  • IronWolf115
    IronWolf115 Member Posts: 672

    @MegaWaffle said:

    @Paddy4583 said:
    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said: IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:    RemoveSWF said:

    Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor. Bullshit. You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled. No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks. In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass. Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use. 

    I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen.    tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing.        Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know

    Oh so neither are the above mentioned for survivors just so you know, I forget how easy it is to just change the meaning of a word to suit your position  A crutch, is a perk or item that gives you power without consequence, BBQ you still have to chase survivors down and down them, it doesn't do it for you. Insta-downs have some sort of downsides to them, Billy his very liitle control during his sprint, Leatherface has tpo chase survivors down before his chainsaw is useful and Myers Insta down is limited. Speed add-ons are actually getting nerfed with tinkerer changes and even then, with speed add-ons you have to still meet the conditions of if you didn't have 

    No one ever defines a crutch as a consequence related thing. A crutch is something a person depends on hence the term crutch.



Yes' and this dependence comes from lack of consequence



 Not at all, you can say they all have a degree of consequence, and therefore they can’t fall into your definition at all.

    you defined limited which some of these are, you said they are being nurfed as are these so they no longer meet your definition

    I would ask you then to tell me the consequence of Decisive strike, sprint burst and Self care, vs the consequence of BBQ and insta down attacks

    I don’t need to you defined it yourself. You claim limited as a consequence and some of these are limited, you defined control as a consequence some of these can’t be controlled, you stated some were being nurfed and so are these, so by your own definition they aren’t crutches.

    Billy himself is a crutch he’s pretty much all you see at high ranks? It’s relyed on and there for a crutch.

    You can't make a statement and then ask the other person to come up with the reasoning behind it. If you cannot name the consequence for him why would he be inclined to defend your point of view? There is no consequence to DS. If you run DS you are A: Going to be ignored because a free escape isn't worth chasing you for, or B: Going to get slugged, giving you more time to be saved. SB gives you a free chance to start looping if you are found because the speed boost negates being caught off guard. It might limit your ability to run around when not in a chase but if you know the killer is chasing someone else then that 40s cooldown doesn't matter and you can run freely. I agree Dead Hard is fine the way it is and the exhaustion nerf hurts that perk most of all. Lithe lacks the initial speed boost from SB but vaults are very easy to find and on some maps where SB would cause you to lose the boost to speed Lithe gives you that amazing escape. Self Care means you can erase all negative effects from a chase if the killer looses you or gives up on you making him waste 100% of his time. If you had to find someone else to heal you then that would be wasting your teams time but self care negates even that possible downside.

    BBQ and Chili requires you to hunt distant targets down who can A: Hide behind generators to avoid the aura or B: Just leave in a different direction after 3-4 seconds. BBQ only works well if the survivor you are after doesn't know you have the perk or isn't very good at basic strategy, making it possible to waste your time leaving a hook to find someone who is no longer there. Instant downs, NOED, only works at end game assuming the totems have not been destroyed. So its a perk that may not even have the opportunity to be used during a match and you cannot play around it being destroyed because you can't see the totems. If you are including limited add-ons in this argument (be they survivor or killer) I don't think that's a reasonable argument. The point of add-ons are to give you a fun reward for playing and finding the offering in a bloodweb. They are meant to be limited items that help twist a match or two. The only real problem here is that the game is 1 v 4 meaning you are more likely to have survivors using an amazing add on than a killer, that's a statistical fact.

    So yes the survivor perks mentioned have far lower consequences (if any) then the killer perks being argued. And in the case where you get a BBQ billy on that huge open corn map (this instant I do see it being very strong) is incredibly rare and not something you can claim to be OP. The fact is this game will never find a perfect balance because the community is so unevenly split. You theoretically have 4 survivor oriented players per every 1 killer oriented player making opinions clash too frequently.

    I like you, you are a logical gentleman/lady.

  • Paddy4583
    Paddy4583 Member Posts: 864
    MegaWaffle said:

    @Paddy4583 said:
    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said: IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:    RemoveSWF said:

    Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor. Bullshit. You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled. No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks. In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass. Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use. 

    I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen.    tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing.        Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know

    Oh so neither are the above mentioned for survivors just so you know, I forget how easy it is to just change the meaning of a word to suit your position  A crutch, is a perk or item that gives you power without consequence, BBQ you still have to chase survivors down and down them, it doesn't do it for you. Insta-downs have some sort of downsides to them, Billy his very liitle control during his sprint, Leatherface has tpo chase survivors down before his chainsaw is useful and Myers Insta down is limited. Speed add-ons are actually getting nerfed with tinkerer changes and even then, with speed add-ons you have to still meet the conditions of if you didn't have 

    No one ever defines a crutch as a consequence related thing. A crutch is something a person depends on hence the term crutch.



Yes' and this dependence comes from lack of consequence



 Not at all, you can say they all have a degree of consequence, and therefore they can’t fall into your definition at all.

    you defined limited which some of these are, you said they are being nurfed as are these so they no longer meet your definition

    I would ask you then to tell me the consequence of Decisive strike, sprint burst and Self care, vs the consequence of BBQ and insta down attacks

    I don’t need to you defined it yourself. You claim limited as a consequence and some of these are limited, you defined control as a consequence some of these can’t be controlled, you stated some were being nurfed and so are these, so by your own definition they aren’t crutches.

    Billy himself is a crutch he’s pretty much all you see at high ranks? It’s relyed on and there for a crutch.

    You can't make a statement and then ask the other person to come up with the reasoning behind it. If you cannot name the consequence for him why would he be inclined to defend your point of view? There is no consequence to DS. If you run DS you are A: Going to be ignored because a free escape isn't worth chasing you for, or B: Going to get slugged, giving you more time to be saved. SB gives you a free chance to start looping if you are found because the speed boost negates being caught off guard. It might limit your ability to run around when not in a chase but if you know the killer is chasing someone else then that 40s cooldown doesn't matter and you can run freely. I agree Dead Hard is fine the way it is and the exhaustion nerf hurts that perk most of all. Lithe lacks the initial speed boost from SB but vaults are very easy to find and on some maps where SB would cause you to lose the boost to speed Lithe gives you that amazing escape. Self Care means you can erase all negative effects from a chase if the killer looses you or gives up on you making him waste 100% of his time. If you had to find someone else to heal you then that would be wasting your teams time but self care negates even that possible downside.

    BBQ and Chili requires you to hunt distant targets down who can A: Hide behind generators to avoid the aura or B: Just leave in a different direction after 3-4 seconds. BBQ only works well if the survivor you are after doesn't know you have the perk or isn't very good at basic strategy, making it possible to waste your time leaving a hook to find someone who is no longer there. Instant downs, NOED, only works at end game assuming the totems have not been destroyed. So its a perk that may not even have the opportunity to be used during a match and you cannot play around it being destroyed because you can't see the totems. If you are including limited add-ons in this argument (be they survivor or killer) I don't think that's a reasonable argument. The point of add-ons are to give you a fun reward for playing and finding the offering in a bloodweb. They are meant to be limited items that help twist a match or two. The only real problem here is that the game is 1 v 4 meaning you are more likely to have survivors using an amazing add on than a killer, that's a statistical fact.

    So yes the survivor perks mentioned have far lower consequences (if any) then the killer perks being argued. And in the case where you get a BBQ billy on that huge open corn map (this instant I do see it being very strong) is incredibly rare and not something you can claim to be OP. The fact is this game will never find a perfect balance because the community is so unevenly split. You theoretically have 4 survivor oriented players per every 1 killer oriented player making opinions clash too frequently.

    I didn’t ask him to reason it. 
    He already defined what he believes a crutch to be and therefore excluded my definition to fit his argument, I defined what I see as a crutch, he redefined my definition, and in doing so made the original statement void. First it was no consequence now it’s a comparable consequence.
  • Tsulan
    Tsulan Member Posts: 15,095
    Paddy4583 said:
    FrenziedRoach said:

    Funny, as somebody who prefers Lithe, I can't agree with you.

    SB limits my own mobility between chases. When it's on cooldown, I have to walk. Lithe gives me the freedom to run anytime I want - and vaults are the easiest thing in the world to find - especially since it works over pallets.

    All these perks must always be a "once per chase" perk, PEROID

    I would agree if scratch marks were removed and killers had less speed.
    We remove scratch marks and killers have a slightly slower speed. In exchange, survivors don't hear heartbeat and can't see the red killer strain.
    Deal?
  • MegaWaffle
    MegaWaffle Member Posts: 4,172

    I'll make this simple for everyone. Stop fighting with one another, keep in mind we could have all made the mistake of playing F13 instead.

    what a horrible thought

  • IronWolf115
    IronWolf115 Member Posts: 672

    @MegaWaffle said:
    I'll make this simple for everyone. Stop fighting with one another, keep in mind we could have all made the mistake of playing F13 instead.

    what a horrible thought

    Oh god, lawsuit hell.

    But yes I agree I made this discuaaion as just that: A discussion, not an argument

  • Paddy4583
    Paddy4583 Member Posts: 864
    edited July 2018
    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:
    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

    IronWolf115 said:

    Billy himself is a crutch he’s pretty much all you see at high ranks? It’s relyed on and there for a crutch.



Forgot to respond to this, Billy is not a crutch again for the reason that Billy is FAR from unbeatable. Billy suffers from loops and pallets just like most other killers. And just so you know, Nurse is actually better than Billy, so if killers were crutches then wouldn't everyone play Nurse?



And survivors are far from unbeatable. Your skirting round and the nurse is played the same at high ranks. So your point is still void.

    your redefining to fit your argument and by redefining your changing your argument either way you either class them as crutches or yoir

    saying neither are crutches 

    The problem is that survivors are FAR too hard to beat, and you said Hillbilly only, not Nurse so I would ask you to include that when you write a comment. I also am to notice that after all these posts you are STILL to tell me why BBQ is a crutch perk?

    I didn’t say hillbilly only, I used him as an example, I didn’t limit anything. There is no point you can’t stay consistent in your definitions so it’s irrelevant. Your defending the undefendable which is why you can’t remain consistent 

    You said and I quote "Billy himself is a crutch he's pretty much all you see at high ranks"
    You DID NOT say " Killers LIKE Hillbilly are a crutch"
    And AGAIN you display an inability to explain you logic behind BBQ being crutch.
    It's not a case that your talking point is bad, it's that your talking point is non-existant. And I have little time for people who cannot defend their own stances.

    Good day to you

    It’s simple if you stop changing the meaning of the word.
    crutch: anything that serves as a temporary support and becames a the staple go to 

    BBQ falls directly into that definition, if it wasn’t so useful as a tracking perk it wouldn’t be the a staple of a killers build.

    You are staying I must give a down side to things at a detrimental level for it to be a crutch, your merly trying to get me to define something using your definition. Remember I didn’t disagree that the survivor perks were crutches I merly stated the killers have the same, to which you argued and defined, I don’t agree with your definition, to do so I would have to say that the survivor perks aren’t crutches, which I do not. 
  • IronWolf115
    IronWolf115 Member Posts: 672

    @Paddy4583 said:
    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

IronWolf115 said:

    Billy himself is a crutch he’s pretty much all you see at high ranks? It’s relyed on and there for a crutch. Forgot to respond to this, Billy is not a crutch again for the reason that Billy is FAR from unbeatable. Billy suffers from loops and pallets just like most other killers. And just so you know, Nurse is actually better than Billy, so if killers were crutches then wouldn't everyone play Nurse? And survivors are far from unbeatable. Your skirting round and the nurse is played the same at high ranks. So your point is still void.

    your redefining to fit your argument and by redefining your changing your argument either way you either class them as crutches or yoir

saying neither are crutches 



The problem is that survivors are FAR too hard to beat, and you said Hillbilly only, not Nurse so I would ask you to include that when you write a comment. I also am to notice that after all these posts you are STILL to tell me why BBQ is a crutch perk?

    I didn’t say hillbilly only, I used him as an example, I didn’t limit anything. There is no point you can’t stay consistent in your definitions so it’s irrelevant. Your defending the undefendable which is why you can’t remain consistent 

    You said and I quote "Billy himself is a crutch he's pretty much all you see at high ranks"

    You DID NOT say " Killers LIKE Hillbilly are a crutch"

    And AGAIN you display an inability to explain you logic behind BBQ being crutch.

    It's not a case that your talking point is bad, it's that your talking point is non-existant. And I have little time for people who cannot defend their own stances.

    Good day to you

    It’s simple if you stop changing the meaning of the word.
    crutch: anything that serves as a temporary support.

    BBQ falls directly into that definition, if it wasn’t so useful as a tracking perk it wouldn’t be the a staple of a killers build.

    You are redefining staying I must give a down side to things at a detrimental level for it to be a crutch, your merly trying to get me to define something using your definition. Remember I didn’t disagree that the survivor perks were crutches I merly stayed the killers have the same, to which you argued and defined, I don’t agree with your definition, to do so I would have to say that the survivor perks aren’t crutches, which I do not. 

    A crutch is ANYTHING that serves as TEMPORARY support?

    That is most perks in the game then

  • Paddy4583
    Paddy4583 Member Posts: 864
    edited July 2018
    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:
    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

IronWolf115 said:

    Billy himself is a crutch he’s pretty much all you see at high ranks? It’s relyed on and there for a crutch. Forgot to respond to this, Billy is not a crutch again for the reason that Billy is FAR from unbeatable. Billy suffers from loops and pallets just like most other killers. And just so you know, Nurse is actually better than Billy, so if killers were crutches then wouldn't everyone play Nurse? And survivors are far from unbeatable. Your skirting round and the nurse is played the same at high ranks. So your point is still void.

    your redefining to fit your argument and by redefining your changing your argument either way you either class them as crutches or yoir

saying neither are crutches 



The problem is that survivors are FAR too hard to beat, and you said Hillbilly only, not Nurse so I would ask you to include that when you write a comment. I also am to notice that after all these posts you are STILL to tell me why BBQ is a crutch perk?

    I didn’t say hillbilly only, I used him as an example, I didn’t limit anything. There is no point you can’t stay consistent in your definitions so it’s irrelevant. Your defending the undefendable which is why you can’t remain consistent 

    You said and I quote "Billy himself is a crutch he's pretty much all you see at high ranks"

    You DID NOT say " Killers LIKE Hillbilly are a crutch"

    And AGAIN you display an inability to explain you logic behind BBQ being crutch.

    It's not a case that your talking point is bad, it's that your talking point is non-existant. And I have little time for people who cannot defend their own stances.

    Good day to you

    It’s simple if you stop changing the meaning of the word.
    crutch: anything that serves as a temporary support.

    BBQ falls directly into that definition, if it wasn’t so useful as a tracking perk it wouldn’t be the a staple of a killers build.

    You are redefining staying I must give a down side to things at a detrimental level for it to be a crutch, your merly trying to get me to define something using your definition. Remember I didn’t disagree that the survivor perks were crutches I merly stayed the killers have the same, to which you argued and defined, I don’t agree with your definition, to do so I would have to say that the survivor perks aren’t crutches, which I do not. 

    A crutch is ANYTHING that serves as TEMPORARY support?

    That is most perks in the game then

    I’ve edit that, stop with the semantics, your definitions cover most of them too.

    you see the same builds on killers over and over just like survivors, so too me they are crutches, I’m pretty sure that’s the standard definition of what people refer to as crutch.

    i don’t run DS and never have. Slef care I do run because I don’t play SWF and trying to get a heal is a waste of time in most matches. Sprint burst is pointless to me as you can’t pick a trigger it just activates when it wants too, and there is no advantage of your hit before using it as you get the jolt for the same speed and time from the hit anyway so it negates it’s use there for me.

    but I do 9/10 matches see the same build on killers and survivors, everymatch and that tells me they are preferred builds because they are relyed on and that’s why I define them as a crutch.
  • HeroLives
    HeroLives Member Posts: 1,985
    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:
    RemoveSWF said:

    Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor.

    Bullshit.

    You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled.

    No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks.

    In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass.

    Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use. 
    I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen.

    tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing.

    Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know

    ^ tell another lie. They are indeed very crutch. I would bet you my bank account that without Moris, bbq and chilli, insta down mechanics , and NOED that killers wouldn’t have a third or more of the kill rates they do now without them. The only person you are smoke screening is yourself.  
  • IronWolf115
    IronWolf115 Member Posts: 672

    @Paddy4583 said:
    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said: IronWolf115 said:

    Billy himself is a crutch he’s pretty much all you see at high ranks? It’s relyed on and there for a crutch.        Forgot to respond to this, Billy is not a crutch again for the reason that Billy is FAR from unbeatable. Billy suffers from loops and pallets just like most other killers. And just so you know, Nurse is actually better than Billy, so if killers were crutches then wouldn't everyone play Nurse?        And survivors are far from unbeatable. Your skirting round and the nurse is played the same at high ranks. So your point is still void.

    your redefining to fit your argument and by redefining your changing your argument either way you either class them as crutches or yoir saying neither are crutches  The problem is that survivors are FAR too hard to beat, and you said Hillbilly only, not Nurse so I would ask you to include that when you write a comment. I also am to notice that after all these posts you are STILL to tell me why BBQ is a crutch perk?

    I didn’t say hillbilly only, I used him as an example, I didn’t limit anything. There is no point you can’t stay consistent in your definitions so it’s irrelevant. Your defending the undefendable which is why you can’t remain consistent 



You said and I quote "Billy himself is a crutch he's pretty much all you see at high ranks"

You DID NOT say " Killers LIKE Hillbilly are a crutch"

And AGAIN you display an inability to explain you logic behind BBQ being crutch.

It's not a case that your talking point is bad, it's that your talking point is non-existant. And I have little time for people who cannot defend their own stances.

Good day to you



It’s simple if you stop changing the meaning of the word.

    crutch: anything that serves as a temporary support.

    BBQ falls directly into that definition, if it wasn’t so useful as a tracking perk it wouldn’t be the a staple of a killers build.

    You are redefining staying I must give a down side to things at a detrimental level for it to be a crutch, your merly trying to get me to define something using your definition. Remember I didn’t disagree that the survivor perks were crutches I merly stayed the killers have the same, to which you argued and defined, I don’t agree with your definition, to do so I would have to say that the survivor perks aren’t crutches, which I do not. 

    A crutch is ANYTHING that serves as TEMPORARY support?

    That is most perks in the game then

    I’ve edit that, stop with the semantics, your definitions cover most of them too

    Well you hadn't edited it when I wrote that.
    Even then you are incorrect because Self care is a crutch perk and that has an infinite effect for survivors

  • IronWolf115
    IronWolf115 Member Posts: 672

    @HeroLives said:
    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

    RemoveSWF said:

    Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor.

Bullshit.

You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled.

No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks.

In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass.



Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use. 

    I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen.

    tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing.

    Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know

    ^ tell another lie. They are indeed very crutch. I would bet you my bank account that without Moris, bbq and chilli, insta down mechanics , and NOED that killers wouldn’t have a third or more of the kill rates they do now without them. The only person you are smoke screening is yourself.  

    My friend if killers didn't have the things you just mentioned, killers wouldn't be played at all because they would be useless

  • Paddy4583
    Paddy4583 Member Posts: 864
    edited July 2018
    IronWolf115 said:

    @HeroLives said:
    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

    RemoveSWF said:

    Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor.

Bullshit.

You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled.

No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks.

In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass.



Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use. 

    I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen.

    tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing.

    Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know

    ^ tell another lie. They are indeed very crutch. I would bet you my bank account that without Moris, bbq and chilli, insta down mechanics , and NOED that killers wouldn’t have a third or more of the kill rates they do now without them. The only person you are smoke screening is yourself.  

    My friend if killers didn't have the things you just mentioned, killers wouldn't be played at all because they would be useless

    meeenbbbbansnsbdjkdndnsmabsbdndjsbssbbssb
  • HeroLives
    HeroLives Member Posts: 1,985
    IronWolf115 said:

    @HeroLives said:
    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

    RemoveSWF said:

    Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor.

Bullshit.

You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled.

No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks.

In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass.



Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use. 

    I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen.

    tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing.

    Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know

    ^ tell another lie. They are indeed very crutch. I would bet you my bank account that without Moris, bbq and chilli, insta down mechanics , and NOED that killers wouldn’t have a third or more of the kill rates they do now without them. The only person you are smoke screening is yourself.  

    My friend if killers didn't have the things you just mentioned, killers wouldn't be played at all because they would be useless

    Alright hints the term crutch because it saves you. Congrats you skipped an extra hit, and two extra hooks you would of had to have done.Also now you know where everyone is so you don’t have to go look around much you’ll know the general area.Also I refuse to argue hypotheticals that will never happen, Bc it’s pointless. Friends though for sure mate! 
  • IronWolf115
    IronWolf115 Member Posts: 672

    @Paddy4583 said:
    IronWolf115 said:

    @HeroLives said:

    IronWolf115 said:

    @Paddy4583 said:

RemoveSWF said:

    Because vaulting over things and dropping down is SO HARD as a survivor. Bullshit. You should have lost these second/third/fourth chance crutch perks years ago. You've been coddled and you're entitled. No survivor should be able to loop a killer for three generators or more. The reason they can is due to exploit abuse (pallet looping) and OP perks. In future, how about learning to hide and juke instead of playing fearlessly because you know DbD killers are weak as piss and your God perks will save your griefer ass. Like insta downs, speed addons and BBQ and ruin all the crux you use. 

    I begining to think you are just a bad killer main who uses any excuse. You won’t be happy untill survivors are just AI that are easy for you to beat. You say get better at hiding but that’s only viable if the killer depart know where the gens are else your just hiding while some killer runs from gen to gen.

tyme is a total ass hat who has delusions of grandeur, I had to stop following him on twitch as his stream turned into him boasting about how amazing he is and how he singlehandedly made the devs listen to his ideas and how they listen to his advise because he’s so amazing.



Insta-downs, speed add-ons and BBQ are not crutch just so you know

    ^ tell another lie. They are indeed very crutch. I would bet you my bank account that without Moris, bbq and chilli, insta down mechanics , and NOED that killers wouldn’t have a third or more of the kill rates they do now without them. The only person you are smoke screening is yourself.  

    My friend if killers didn't have the things you just mentioned, killers wouldn't be played at all because they would be useless

    And there you go... the definition of a crutch. 
    If your not a SWF group then you feel the same way without your crutch perks too, now your arguing my whole point 

    I say this quote as a fundamental flaw in the game system, I admit I did not make that clear in this post. BBQ is not a crutch because it requires an activation, and then a follow up on you behalf. Allow me to put it into a small list.

    Killer " crutches "

    BBQ: Requires a survivor to be found, hooked and then requires you to leave the hook to follow up on the information you have been given
    Mori: Requires a survivor to be hooked then unhhoked then downed again and finished. this also gives less points to the killer by the end of the match
    Insta downs: Fundamental part of killer kits to add uniqueness.
    Billy has very little control over where he moves during his sprint
    Leatherface has to be up their ass for his chainsaw to do anything and is severely punished for bumping into a wall
    Myers has limitations on how long he can insta down
    NOED: Can be completely removed before it even triggers by destroying the totems on the map, thus it has a hard counter

    Survivor crutches

    Decisive strike: Allows you to escape from being hooked. The consequence is meant to be that it is one time use, but one time use is enough to make killers lose games, so effectively no consequence
    Self care: Infinite healing, no consequence at all
    Flashlight: Allows players to save other players from killers, I guess the consequence is timing but that is easy to figure out and maintain
    Sprint Burst: Immediate escape from the vicinity of a killer with the consequence only being a 40 second cooldown.

    I could go on but you get the jist. The reason people may CONSIDER BBQ to be a crutch is because of how many killers use it. This however is because of the weakness of the killer vs survivor. if the game was balanced then I would bet anything that you would see BBQ much less

  • thesuicidefox
    thesuicidefox Member Posts: 8,223

    @FrenziedRoach said:
    All these perks must always be a "once per chase" perk, PERIOD

    I could count on 1 hand the number of times I've seen DH, Lithe, or BL used twice in a chase. It's extremely rare for that to happen. SB on the other hand can easily EASILY trigger multiple times in a chase. Two SB in a chase is very common, and I've even seen 3 SB in a chase if they run vigil. The difference between SB and other exhaustion perks purely in terms of how often you do it in a single chase is staggering. As killer I've never NEVER had an instance where I'm like "oh man Lithe again?!". It's always something used once, and either you escape or the chase continues and you eventually get caught. The fact these 3 perks require a specific trigger while SB doesn't is the reason for this.

    IMO a better solution to this problem would just be to add a stipulation to SB that reads "If you equip this perk you cannot recover Exhaustion while running." That's it, now SB won't trigger multiple times in a chase and other exhaustion perks remain unaffected. Even though they could potentially trigger multiple times in a chase too, the potential is so abysmally low that it's not really an issue. If you are killer and someone gets DH on you twice in one chase then chances are you are just a bad killer, not that the perk is too good.

    I mean DH especially is easy to counter once you know someone has it. Just get really close and they use it. Also any sort of insta-down is a total hard counter to DH. DH is no where near the same level as SB. Only reason people even use DH is because most killers fall for it every time. Against a killer with any sort of brains though, DH is pretty useless.

  • IronWolf115
    IronWolf115 Member Posts: 672

    @thesuicidefox said:

    @FrenziedRoach said:
    All these perks must always be a "once per chase" perk, PERIOD

    I could count on 1 hand the number of times I've seen DH, Lithe, or BL used twice in a chase. It's extremely rare for that to happen. SB on the other hand can easily EASILY trigger multiple times in a chase. Two SB in a chase is very common, and I've even seen 3 SB in a chase if they run vigil. The difference between SB and other exhaustion perks purely in terms of how often you do it in a single chase is staggering. As killer I've never NEVER had an instance where I'm like "oh man Lithe again?!". It's always something used once, and either you escape or the chase continues and you eventually get caught. The fact these 3 perks require a specific trigger while SB doesn't is the reason for this.

    IMO a better solution to this problem would just be to add a stipulation to SB that reads "If you equip this perk you cannot recover Exhaustion while running." That's it, now SB won't trigger multiple times in a chase and other exhaustion perks remain unaffected. Even though they could potentially trigger multiple times in a chase too, the potential is so abysmally low that it's not really an issue. If you are killer and someone gets DH on you twice in one chase then chances are you are just a bad killer, not that the perk is too good.

    I mean DH especially is easy to counter once you know someone has it. Just get really close and they use it. Also any sort of insta-down is a total hard counter to DH. DH is no where near the same level as SB. Only reason people even use DH is because most killers fall for it every time. Against a killer with any sort of brains though, DH is pretty useless.

    Yeah, my biggest problem with the exhaustion nerf is the hit it will give to dead hard. it doesn't need nerfing