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Buff Suggestions for Saboteur and Toolbox Sabotage
Sabotage is a weak mechanic mainly because it wastes too much time when you could be doing gens instead. I've came up with some solutions to make this mechanic more viable, instead of only being used in a gimmick build.
- Make aura of hooks visible within 20 meters with Saboteur. (Part of the problem with sabotaging is you to have search for all the hooks in one area and destroy them for it work, which is time consuming, and you tend to forget their locations after a while since you get preoccupied with the killer and other objectives.) (This'll provide the Saboteur with valuable information on finding hooks, which area to destroy them for maximum effectiveness, and which hook the killer is heading with the survivor so you can make a bee line for it and destroy the hook before the killer gets there first without having to memorize.)
- With Saboteur, sabotage at normal speed without a toolbox. (Everyone will agree with me that sabotaging at 50% the normal speed is more of a hindrance than anything because it takes 30 seconds to destroy a hook.) (Nobodies going to use Saboteur by itself unless you're a new player or just farming so this buff will make it viable as a standalone perk.)
- With Saboteur, Increase toolbox sabotage speed by 10%, 20%, 30%, depending on the tier. (This makes sabotaging more efficient if paired with a toolbox but it's also more logical in the sense that it implies the Saboteur is knowledgeable at destroying things. (This will also lower the chances of getting a skill check when you're just about to 99% a hook, which happens very often and sometimes forces you to fail the skill check so you don't accidentally destroy it.)
- Increase sabotage speed by 15% for all toolboxes as base kit. (This makes it so that using a toolbox by itself to sabotage, is faster than sabotaging with Saboteur as a standalone perk.) (Also, it's similar to #3 since it's more logical in the general sense that it's faster when sabotaging with tools rather than just using your hands.)
- With Saboteur, Hooks stay destroyed 30 seconds longer for all tiers.
Overall, these buffs will make sabotage more efficient and effective, which in turn, will make it more viable. This'll also mean Hangman's Trick will see some use because it now counters a pretty decent mechanic instead of a weak one. It's better to just use a flashlight and try to get a save than destroying hooks since it usually wastes less time and doesn't involve rng because it's entirely skill based.
Comments
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Except that would break the game. If 4 survivors run saboteur and toolboxes they could easily get rid of all of the hooks on the map and that would make it literally impossible for killers to win because they're unable to sacrifice survivors. They would have to rely on slugging and camping the downed survivor until they bleed out just to get kills. And that would mean the survivors would be able to rush gens without any threat. The fact that there is no counter to it other than running 1 specific perk would make it insanely over powered.
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That would mean those survivors that are saboing aren't working on a gen, which technically buys time for the killer. Also, having all 4 survivors run a sabo build to destroy all the hooks is possible even right now but nobodies doing it because it's a gimmick build at the moment. This logic also applies to anything in the game that makes survivors stronger. If all 4 survivors ran a purple flashlight with battery addons, they'd all last a lot longer in chases, and applies to instaheals as well, yet hardly anyone is doing it. The way sabotage is balanced is that it's a high risk, high reward play. It's a risk between saving a survivor or just being a big waste of time. Once again, relying on slugging and camping due to this build is possible even now if you destroy all the hooks in the right area. If the killer slugs, that applies pressure, which in turn means you got survivors off gens so it's an effective way to play around sabotage.
Hardly anyone bothers to use sabotage because right now, it's just not worth doing for such a high risk. This buff will make it so that survivors can sabotage hooks without screwing there teammates over by wasting too much time. I always see survivors saboing a hook and being like, "#########, why isn't he just doing a gen"?, which a lot of survivors think of with this mechanic.
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This is a really bad idea on many forms.
First off, unless it's the game or lery's, finding hooks is not hard at all, so showing aura's for hooks is pretty pointless.
Second off, why should Saboteur be faster with no tools? you only have your hands so unless your hands are metal, it should be slower.
Third off, no, just no. There is a toolbox + addons that do this already, so making it even faster would be insanely OP.
Fourth off, same as #3, would be really broken and not really fair.
Fifth off, this would be way too high a number increase, since you could pair it with increase hook spawn radius, and have 4 people running it, and would stop all forms of hooks unless it's in the basement.
Overall, these changes are really bad because it would make Saboteur and toolboxes really OP and would make all survivors take it and 99% hooks, then always pop it in front of the killer, so the killer would literally have 0 hooks. It would be old sabotages all over again. And saying "That would mean those survivors that are saboing aren't working on a gen, which technically buys time for the killer" is a stupid argument because now Killers would be pretty much forced too slug unless they are near the basement. Or it could promote camping because all the other hooks are broken, so if he does hook someone he wants too be close because it's the only way too hook people.
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First off, hooks are difficult to spot when they're in the corners of the map, behind a wall, or a building, which means you spend a bit of time trying to look for them. Also, it's easy to forget where those hooks were once you've spotted them and 99'd them since you'll eventually get preoccupied with the killer or the gens.
Second, I've already suggested in making toolbox's sabotage speed faster as base kit which means it'll be faster than just running saboteur.
Third, I still don't see how using sabo speed addons would make it op because you'd have to 99% it and also be near the killer when they're picking up the survivor, which means they're not on a gen. This is similar to someone trying to get a flashlight save. They also need to destroy multiple hooks in succession for it to work so it most likely won't even get the save. It's difficult to do this because you have to predict which hook the killer is going to take the survivor so it's kind of like cat and mouse.
Fourth, it basically solves your second problem.
Fifth, I already mentioned this above, if all 4 survivors are running a sabo build, then yeah, expect it to be more powerful than having 1 person running it. I already made the example of how all 4 survivors running a flashlight or instaheal can be powerful too but how many people are using them all at the same time? I don't see why this is such a big issue. Also, if 4 survivors are focused on destroying hooks, then the killers will have to adapt by slugging and possibly camping them to play around it, which still puts a lot of pressure on them. The only way the Killer gets kills is if he adapts to the environment and the survivors playstyles so slugging and camping is fine. Also like I said earlier, this can already be done right now by 4 survivors running a sabo build but hardly anyone is using it because it's a gimmick build. The only buffs I've suggested are to increase sabo speed and see hook auras to decrease the amount of time it takes for it to work, and which ones to destroy because it just takes too long to sabo and has a higher chance of punishing you instead of rewarding you.
Post edited by Derp on1 -
saboteur you can see hooks within 20/26/32 meters and each hook you sabotage the killer can’t see the aura of the last 2/4/6 hooks you sabotaged when you are getting carried. If you use Saboteur the hook is gone for 20/40/60 seconds longer
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I think this buff will make the perk okay but I don't think it's good enough since it doesn't increase sabo speed, which means destroying multiple hooks will take too long for something that's most likely not going to work as intended.
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These are actually pretty reasonable suggestions. The speed modifiers might be a little off. But having hook aura reading with the perk Saboteur is a really good and fair idea. The one other thing that I think Saboteur should do is make is so when a hook that was broken by a player with Saboteur re-spawns, it should have 50% progression toward being broken again.
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I'd like to know why you think the speed modifier is a bit off and what can be a better solution. As for hooks being 50% sabotaged when respawning, that'll definitely be very helpful but I'm not sure if it'll be balanced or not.
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Even just the hook aura is a big deal.
Buffing Sabo is a good thing to do, because it encourages survivors to mess around instead of genrushing. Sounds like a win for everyone.
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but wouldn't this lead to a potential increase in slugging? if loads of hooks are gone, then why shouldn't the killer just slug the whole game until they respawn? And we all know everyone loves being slugged.
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Jeez guys it's not that difficult.
To buff saboteur and toolbox sabotage, just make a limit number of hooks, be sabotage FOREVER, because the regeneration thing is a total mess and doesn't make sense (yes, i know why it was introduced at that time, i was there) and done! You have a come-back of a forgotten mechanic being useful and not extremely overpowered in survivor hands.
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It would but I don't see why that's a problem. Killers have to adapt to certain playstyles of the survivors to get kills. That's just how it is. Decisive Strike is designed so that the only counter to it is for the killer to slug if he doesn't want to get stunned for 5 seconds but it doesn't seem like most killers have a problem with that so why this? If 3 survivors decided to gen rush while 1 was being chased, then the killer might have to give up mid-chase to pressure the gens or slug them to put pressure on the survivors. Overall, it's a good strategy for certain situations so it isn't a bad thing. Buffing sabotage will basically mean you're less likely to get gen rushed since survivors can now destroy hooks without punishing them too much, which means more sabotage builds being used and less survivors on gens. Once again for the third time, sabotaging can already be done effectively right now but it isn't worth doing because it takes too long to destroy multiple hooks and you'll most likely just waste yours and the other survivors time if you don't prevent 1 of them from getting hooked. Right now, the only way to sabotage and get saves effectively is by waiting until end game and destroying all the hooks near the gates. This only works if 3 or 4 survivors are still alive though so it won't work often.
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Why would it Ben increased if it was just your hands? If anything it would increase the speed if you were using a toolbox
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I already suggested in making the toolboxes sabotage speed faster than just using Saboteur to make it more logical and suggested removing the 50% slower speed to make it usable as a standalone perk. What's the point of being able to sabotage hooks at 50% the normal speed if that's literally gonna get survivors killed by wasting time. At least Self Care is still viable as a standalone perk, is situational, and has a much rewarding effect for something at 50% the normal speed. Using Saboteur is just punishing the survivor and his teammates for ever using it by itself. If sabotaging doesn't prevent a survivor from getting hooked, which requires a bit of rng and timing, then you'll waste like 60 seconds or more searching for hooks and sabotaging them. Increasing sabotage speed will make it so that it's less punishing for survivors that use this mechanic to make it more viable. By the way, this is all to get just 1 save really, and if other survivors go down where there isn't a hook, then the killer will just slug them. It's better to just bring a flashlight and try to get a save with it instead of destroying hooks, since it saves way more time and doesn't involve rng because it's skill based.
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Reducing hook spawns can be a problem since there's the offering that increases the hooks distance from each other which can also stack. It'll also mean more survivors will bodyblock since it'll be a lot easier to wiggle off. I can see this being abused by swf on voice chat, telling each other to bodyblock for the save. I'm gonna have to say a no on this one.
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If it were entirely up to me, this is what they would rework Saboteur into.
Saboteur- Unlocks the ability to sabotage without a Toolbox at 85 % the normal Sabotage speed and allows you to see the aura of hooks within 24 meters. Hooks and Bear Traps you sabotage stay broken for an extra 15/30/45 seconds. Hooks that you break will respawn with 50% sabotage progression.
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If it's for the offering then we need to rework them and we're done.
The problem with saboteur is the hook's regeneration, because you waste all the time to do nothing. So the real answer to all of this is sabotage only some hooks permanently and as you said rework the offering.
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I actually do love being slugged, Unbreakable is one of my favourite perks lol. Working on getting Tenacity so I can pair them for my main build.
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Reducing hook spawns still isn't gonna be that useful for sabotaging since it takes a long time to wiggle so the killer can still go from one hook to another. Also, hook locations are based on rng because you'll get some maps where all the hooks are right next to each other and others where the hooks are far apart. Hooks spawning far apart from each other is a bit similar to what you've suggested and it still doesn't do much.
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Exactly, you coordinate with your team to alteast do only some hooks in an area so you have, let's say safe area. It's much more reliable then increase the hook's regeneration ,otherwise if you increased the time to be much longer, could be nice.
The point is, sabouteur was for sure OP because it could remove all hooks from the map, apart the basement. Thanks to the majestic ideas from the devs, the nerf was so big that killed saboteur to the ground.
SO, for a come-back of this forgotten mechanic OR we should sabotage for ever only a number of hooks OR the hook's regeneration should be increased MUCH longer.
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Auras of Hooks are shown within a 64 meter radius from you. Your spee wholeness sabotaging is 50% slower. Gain a 15/25/35% speed boost when sabotaging with a toolbox. The last 2/4/6 hooks you sabotage the aura doesn’t show to the killer when they are carrying you.
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The problem its that ppl are new and they dont know the old sabo was im a old player since ive played this game since the game was realised and yes ppl were using sabo cuz it was good for bp and for destroying hooks now with the new mecanic its complete trash perk and yes it needs a buff the mecanic needs also a change whats the point having a mecanic to fix a hook if theres a perk for it nobody will use hangman tricks since the mecanic its there i will say that hook respawn needs to be longer and sabo needs a buff and those buffs are
Seen the aura of the hooks by 30m increase the speed without toolbox 63% and thats it or just make the similar way of the respawn hooks without a perk survivor can sabo without saboteur simple
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