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Why do the developers favor survivors so hard at the high ranks?
I am a low red ranks killer (4), trying to get the achievement to reach rank 1. At the red ranks, it becomes obvious that survivors are heavily favored in the current state of the game (at least at the high tiers when they've learned what to do) by the developers.
I will be against sets of them all with adren, DS, or borrowed time (and who know how to use those perks well) on and off comms. My favorite killer is the clown, but sure, I down a my first person (if I'm lucky 2) and 2 gens are done by then (with ruin on of course - they don't bother to cleanse it unless it is obvious). Survivors can hit the skill checks and typically group on the gens even if I chase one off (and done em) so as to still finish. Sure, I stall them with pop goes the weasel and typically can get one kill at least to safety pip, but the effort it takes is crazy!
Then I go spirit, and the game feels fair. Normal loops which slow clown and waste time become possible to mind game and win quickly. You can speed across the big maps and have map pressure. Then, after the match, the survivors complain (sometimes DC) saying Spirit isn't "fair." I feel a little bad because I want everyone to have fun, but at the high ranks some of the killers just can't pressure enough against good (op in my opinion) survivors.
All in all, this seems like a big problem. I even sometimes hear the streamers complain about it too, and the community polls. So why do the developers favor the survivors?
My theory is that they pander to survivors because at the end of the day, there are always more survivors playing then killers (4 per 1 each match!). Then, the focus on "balancing" the middle ranks (theoretically where the majority of the players are).
I just wonder what of the game when they nerf nurse or spirit? If they never balance the high ranks, then what?
Sorry for the long post. It's just I had survivors rage at me post-game saying the spirit is so unfair (I wasn't even running beads). I barely got the 4 kill with only 1 gen remaining. It's mind blowing.
Comments
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Because they favor the majority over the minority in order to make sure the game doesn’t die.
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Your theory is wrong, because at the end of the day there are killers who can make mince meat out of survivor teams at Rank 1.
You simply aren't skilled enough to hang at this rank yet. Work on it.
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I think you may have missed part of the point. I think with Spirit, I have a good chance of getting there (but again this post isn't about me). No way with Clown, and that is sad. The game should be balanced to have diverse killers at all tiers.
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So what you're saying is you are a fairly new player (never hit rank 1 killer?) who is struggling to play against better players, yet you are able to play spirit and still get the 4k. Hmm.
I'm not saying gens don't go fast, but I am saying it is odd that killer players with less experience expect to be able to challenge and beat players with much more experience.
It is like a player new to Overwatch finding himself climbing the ranks and wondering why the games suddenly become more difficult.
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The problem isn't survivors.Some killers are just too weak to stand a chance. If you play nurse or spirit, now the game is killer sided.
Clown is unfortunately a very weak killer imo. Huntress, billy, hag, spirit, nurse and maybe freddy are very viable in red ranks.
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Gotta agree with these guys. While survivors might get harder, that doesnt mean your forced to play "the top 3" to have a chance. You'll get better.
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It's not that they favour high rank survivors
They just balance the game on lower ranks, since the majority apparently has never even reached rank 10
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The Difference between a good survivor and one that is rank 1 is immense. Like there are so many (im stretching a bit ofc but you get my point) survivors at rank 1 that lose a chase in the first 20 sec. Rank does absoluetly not matter who you are playing against, and even against full sfw groups, if one of them makes a mistake at the right time, you can still kill them all. And i also believe that every Killer is atleast viable at red ranks, maybe not optimal, but you certainly dont lose every single game if you play Bubba. There are just so many things to consider in a dbd match, that it sounds kinda stupid to me if you think you cant rank up if you dont play meta killers. The balancing isnt perfect, but the devs made a couple of really good changes in the last year and its def possible to atleast go safety pip in pretty much every game.
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Really wish I had a screenshot of Old Freddy 4king at rank 1. Well said though.
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This is the problem with this game. There are killers here who think that they are good enough to be rank 1 and that it's the games fault for not balancing correctly. I play an equal amount of both to know that Solo queue survivor is a huge struggle and killer VS SWF is a huge struggle too, but both are possible wins depending on the dice rolls sometimes.
Everyone just thinks they are better than they really are. When every I face true rank 1 killers in Solo queue I can tell right away. I'll question why my team is dropping so fast, till I can't run him around like most killers.
I personally feel like the ranking should be increased, because people that have issue hitting rank 1 at the current state, honestly shouldn't be there, and you have some killers sitting on Rank 1 no problem gaining zero progress by having perfect games.
Give them like prestige rank 1 or some shiz
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The core chase mechanics are set up so that the survivors control the game and their skill level determines what the killer has to do, rather than the other way around. This means that high rank will always favour survivors or at least favour them more there than it does at low rank. It also means that against bad survivors, bad killers will almost always win even if they are even worse than the survivors.
Even if you were to buff killers to the point where they always win, survivors would still be in a better spot at high rank than they would at low rank.
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Dont say that too loud... The ppl who are trying to convince themselves that its impossible to win might overhear you...
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Here is a popular streamer's opinion on the matter. I sympathize with his perspective from my own experience. I really want to reach rank 1 with Clown, but just no way! This streamer has over 3,000 hours (maybe more):
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While Tru3 is pretty decent at movement around junglegyms, such as moonwalking and such... The guy completely misses alot of details in a killer's power. Watching him praise an awake survivor at SOMEHOW knowing which dream pallet is fake just makes me laugh everytime. He goes on the "optimal survivor" speech everytime he loses, which is just cringy at this point. I was a big fan when I first started playing, but now that I have some experience...I see threw it.
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just change character
if you play 5hours of nurse and you never care about ranks anymore
because you can decide your ranks
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I actually ran a VERY different build and strategy with my Freddy. I didnt even have ruin when I first hit rank 1 with him, just cuz I didnt have Hag lvled at the time (Plus old Freddy sucked at defending totems) and actually prefered to stay away from stacking block addons. I just tended to do abit of a hit and run tactic with Monitor, BBQ, Whispers and NOED as my perk lineup. The NOED I only really used to avoid circumstances where I have to watch survivors open the doors before I get to hit them... Monitor though was VERY nice since old Freddy had a 16 meter TR outside chases with it. Could constantly sneak up on survivors trying to break out of dream or trying to heal up and smack em down.
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Short answer is they don't.
Long answer is that while it might seem that way it's obvious from changes that happen at all levels that they are trying to make it less stifling against survivors at high ranks without making it even harder for them at low ranks. The nature of the game is that at rank 20, you get dumpstered as a fresh survivor. You don't know how to loop, where gens are, how to evade a killer and what perks to look for. As killer in those ranks just basic m1 play will get you consistent 4k's, gens take forever because new survivors can't do skill checks and will abandon a gen the moment they hear a heartbeat and hooking one will make the other three crouch in the grass wondering what to do.
At high ranks they know what to do, don't waste time and make chases last longer with looping. It's strong, it makes it hard as killer but it's difficult to nerf rank 1 survivors without nerfing rank 20s even worse so next time you want to throw shade at the devs try putting thought into how you think they would actually do that. I'm sure good suggestions would be appreciated.
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Here is where the true issue comes in, it isn't BHVR favoring Survivor vs Killer or vise-versa but rather that the game is "balanced" around mid rank players. For this reason high rank/skilled players can take these changes/balances and push them beyond their limits causing 1 side or the other to seem incredibly OP.
A rank 20 player with DS won't really make use of it however a rank 1 player with DS can turn a losing game around. This is why most games try to balance with the higher skilled players in mind so that nothing can become too much more than what they intended with balance.
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This is pretty much what I meant to say.
The power difference between average and genuinely good survivors is a symptom of how the game is balanced, the devs don't intentionally tweak the game to make it that way. Same reason a lot of killers have a very low skill floor and often limited realistically achievable skill ceiling as well - the devs balance around average players as opposed to the top.
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Don't bother, Mochan is absolutely survivors biased, nothing you can do...
As for the original topic, the game is survivors sided because the devs allowed it to be.
It was clear that balancing a 4 vs 1 game on one vs one chases would have broken the game, but survivors lobbied for looping and chases and we ended up with a game where only 4/5 killers are acceptable.
You can even win with bobba don't get me wrong but if you do its because you were much better than the survivors.
At equal skill level good survivors will beat a good killer who isn't using spirit or nurse or maybe Billy
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This might help you:
Ruin + Discordance + Corrupt Intervention + Pop Goes the Weasel
I got rage messages every time, but that got me to rank 1 the first time
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Months ago I played Old Freddy from rank 13 all the way to rank 1 never stopping to play any other killer and I stayed at red until reset
The survivors weren't bad, it's just old Freddy had a ton of map pressure and control, PLUS think about it
Same scenario with fighting games. Everyone knows how to play and fight against the top tier fighters, but a under-rated or low tier character? Experience beats in-experience
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It's because the majority has unfortunately never reached rank 10 and the devs are balancing around them.
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Right now the game is in a very good spot balance wise. It really is. They've done a lot to help out us killers. They've taken away a good chunk of pallets. I used to find double pallets at almost every jungle gym. Not to mention the infinite window that may or may not spawn in ironworks. It used to always be there. Always. They haven't touched hitboxes for killers either. Yeah, certain killers need love. Everyone knows that. Hell, watch zubatlel climb with nurse perkless and add-onless. It shows the gap in some killers. However saying it's heavily survivor sided is wrong. I used to be a wraith otp and got to rank 1 with him in a short time. Did I have to play a little dirty? Yeah. I had fun doing it though and that's what matters the most. Having fun. Don't worry if your certain killer isn't the best. I love the clown. He's my second go to killer after Daddy Myers now. Does that mean I think he's strong? Nah, I know my thicc boy gets "gen rushed" but I also know it's my fault for chasing for so long.
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@themirrortwin I think that in this reply you are moving the goal post slightly. First, you absolutely do not need to use the holy trinity of Spirit, Nurse, or Billy to be successful at rank one. Just look at @GrootDude with his Leatherface.
However, the clown is not very viable at red ranks. Unfortunately, not every character or hero in a PvP game is going to be viable. There will always be some that just don't do well against highly skilled opponents due to weaknesses in their core design. Clown definitely seems to be one of them. This isn't unique to DbD.
But Clown is not an example of the game being survivor sided. He's an example of lack-luster design left to rot for too long.
@Omans And to be honest, as an Overwatch player since launch day, I've seen the exact, same posts over there. The other thing is, as I mentioned above in regards to his clown comment, an unfortunate by-product of any hero or character based PvP game is that there are inevitably going to be some that are just not decent picks at the high ranks against very experienced opponents. Clown is one of them here. Overwatch has its share as well. As does Paladins, and even the MOBA of your choice.
Sometimes as a Meta shifts, some of those outliers might get their spot. Look at how long it took Orisa to become Meta.
Unfortunately, BHVR has done next to nothing to help shift the Meta here in DbD in at least two years, and takes way too long to try to make weak-designed killers more viable. Look at how long it took them for Freddy. Clown has needed help for far too long now. And it isn't like they have a mega-investor backed pro-scene to worry about like Blizzard does with the OWL, where, right or wrong, they worry about changes and how that might shift things and hurt viewership over there. Look at what GOATS did to it, and now Double Barrier is starting to take a toll.
BHVR doesn't even have that to concern itself with, and is still slow enough that a snail looks like a jack rabbit.
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I’m not rank one rn, I’m still purple but I often do reach red ranks.
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@GrootDude But unless I am wrong, you have hit red ranks on LF, yes? And been successful with him?
I'm not too concerned with your current rank only 10 days after a reset and with a bugged to hell and back matchmaker going on.
I'm already losing about 2 weeks of this current reset due to the matchmaker and refusing to play until it's fixed. And with my limited time as it is, I doubt I will climb much in only a little over two weeks. Next reset I am going to be way, way down in the grays.
At this point, I'll probably just keep myself there and farm BP with BBQ, gen kicks, chases, and maybe one sacrifice a match. And just let survivors escape so I don't pip too much as I try to unlock decent builds.
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Yep, been at the red ranks and been quite successfull.
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I get it, lol. I spent ALOT of time with old Freddy. I just dont take many screenshots.
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Thanks for the feedback. It appears the consensus is that Clown will unfortunately struggle at the top tier. I just really like his style, but I can't bring red head's pinky finger to every match. Also, y'all are right in that I shouldn't expect it to be easy (to be fair, I never did). I just wish I could do it with a killer I really enjoy. I will try your build
@Carlosylu I'll definitely try the build. Thank you
@Kilmeran @Omans Thanks for the feedback and the perspective. I think you're points are very compelling and I can hope hope hope for a meta-shift someday. It feels weird though because getting rank 1 on survivor (even after the ranking change) was just much less difficult for me. Its the killer side that has really challenged me.
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Preach!
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Also, this is very topical to this thread from another 3000+ hour streamer:
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Precisely this!
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Not gonna lie, you just summed up a majority of this game's problems for the last 2 years.
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While what you said isn't wrong, but what I said isn't, either.
You can more easily get to Rank 1 with Spirit, because she's a strong killer and you can get good results with her with relatively less skill. Clown is a harder to get good results at in the higher ranks, but you'd be wrong to say that it's impossible. It can be done, I have played many Clowns at Red Ranks, they can get the job done if they are good enough.
Like I said, you just need to work at it.
And I didn't miss your point. I think you made it pretty clear with this statement.
My theory is that they pander to survivors because at the end of the day, there are always more survivors playing then killers (4 per 1 each match!). Then, the focus on "balancing" the middle ranks (theoretically where the majority of the players are).
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That is your theory. How exactly are you measuring "equal skill"?
I'm curious to hear how you managed to prove your point that at equal skill levels survivors will win every time if not against the Big Three.
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Because devs balanced the game on lower rank, especially not so optimal and coordinated survivors.
As soon as survivors play optimal and coordinate each other, this game will automatically get imbalance.
Every killer should on the same level as nurse, billy, spirit at map / gens control and also should be able down survivors very quick.
Many survivor main are very proud when they are successfully destroy and bully weaker killer multiple times and even insulting them directly or indirectly, but then complaining the most when against strong killer with reason stressful and unfun.
Do you think play as a weak killer is fun and not stressful? Already did the best but still the fate of winning or losing is on survivor's hand. Don't be egoist and denial. You play against other human not a toy.
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How did you get the Trusted Tag with being so much biased and poor understanding of game balance?
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You sound so arrogant... Clown isn't Spirit who has one of the biggest map pressure in the game. I can't say the same to Trapper, Pig, Plague, Ghostface, Wraith, Bubba etc etc. It's not impossible to got 4k but you need to work insanily hard and things can still go wrong, no matter how you good you are. It's not only about the comunication of SWF but some maps are 100% on survivor side. Don't get me wrong but I bet that you're a typical survivor main who thinks that the game is ballanced for every killer.
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The fact that this many people actually upvoted this incorrect information basically answers OP's question.
They favor the majority and that's the low rank people that only play survivor.
You also get a lot of those same people coming on these forums pushing them with wrong information like this even further into the wrong direction.
The only people disagreeing with you OP and saying its because of skill is because they themselves don't actually play killer at rank 1 and understand what the balance of the game actually looks like.
The only killers actually making mince meat of survivors "consistently" being the key word here, are people playing the top few only viable killers, not all the long list of M1 killers.
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I don't play Spirit or Billy. I often use Myers and Wraith. I'm doing fine killing survivors. It's not stressful unless you are always demanding 4Ks every game.
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I'm not denying that there are A-Rank killers and D-Rank killers. But what I said isn't wrong. It may sound arrogant to you, but it's the truth. The truth is a bitter pill for a lot of people.
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i especially hate the frustration with how many useful crutch perks survivors have over killer perks
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I'm being called arrogant but your views are a lot more elitist and arrogant than mine.
I'm not denying that at the highest levels it's tough for killer. I don't play their so I wouldn't know, and I take people's word for it. But I've never denied and have actively stated that this game is not balanced for the upper 1% at the highest ranks. If it were, the game would die to the sea of blood at all the other ranks where everyone is playing.
Now, let me tell you this. There are lots of killers who don't play the Big 3 and still have success at Red Ranks. Grootdude is one example using Leatherface.
I am spreading false information? No. I am objectively correct.
You are the one spreading wrong information. A lot of killers are spreading this false propaganda that only 3 killers are viable at Red Ranks. They only spread this incorrect information because their own personal experience is they can't do Red Ranks with anyone other than The Big Three.
Does that make it the truth? No. It just means they're not good enough with other killers at Red Ranks.
It may sound arrogant to you killers with huge egos, but the truth is every killer can do well at Red Ranks if you are good enough for it. What I said isn't wrong, but a lot of you are too proud to admit it. So you all believe in this echo chamber group think that the devs are biased against Killers.
And really, that's a load of baloney.
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"I'm being called arrogant but your views are a lot more elitist and arrogant than mine."
I have not called you a single name, much less "arrogant". You are confusing me with a different person. Also, none of the things I have said are elitist or arrogant, they are based on thousands of hours of play time at rank 1 and agreed upon by almost all other multi thousand hour players playing at rank 1.
"But I've never denied and have actively stated that this game is not balanced for the upper 1% at the highest ranks."
You say this but your statements are a contradiction to this.
"If it were, the game would die to the sea of blood at all the other ranks where everyone is playing."
As almost every other game balances this way I think that there is much more evidence that it would be absolutely fine.
"Now, let me tell you this. There are lots of killers who don't play the Big 3 and still have success at Red Ranks. Grootdude is one example using Leatherface."
A game here and there, yeah we all do. No one said there aren't lots of potatoes at rank 1 as well. "Consistently" is the key word here as I said before. "Generally" you will lose the majority of your matches playing those lower rank killers at rank 1. Grootdude either isn't playing all these games at rank 1 or I simply do not believe he is "winning" as many games as he says he is. These things I've said are generally agreed on by almost anyone who plays killer at rank 1 consistently.
"I am spreading false information? No. I am objectively correct."
"there are killers who can make mince meat out of survivor teams at Rank 1." Yes, this is giving misleading and false information. Aside from a rare game here and there when you happen to get potatoes or survivors just screwing around you will lose the majority of your games playing an M1 killer at rank 1.
"You are the one spreading wrong information. A lot of killers are spreading this false propaganda that only 3 killers are viable at Red Ranks."
I have thousands of rank 1 hours on both sides to back up my statements and as you've said, you have none. You are literally stating my information as false based on other peoples videos and opinion, not even your own, that is extremely illogical. You haven't even experienced what we are talking about but calling it wrong. This is agreed upon by almost all players who have actually consistently played killer at rank 1 for any meaningful amount of time.
"It may sound arrogant to you killers with huge egos, but the truth is every killer can do well at Red Ranks if you are good enough for it. What I said isn't wrong, but a lot of you are too proud to admit it. So you all believe in this echo chamber group think that the devs are biased against Killers."
The irony of this is that you are literally describing yourself but your ego is too large to see it. You are disagreeing based on NOTHING. You haven't even experienced what we are talking about because you don't play at rank 1 yet still believe you are right.
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Mine is not a theory its a fact.
On similar skill levels and by avoiding, in both roles, big mistakes, survivors are advantaged. Only someone with your bias don't see that.
This has always been a survivors game, like most gen 1 asymmetrical games they are l plagued by the numbers role also being the power role.
Play more and see how this works
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Probably you never met very optimal survivors. Every streamer that I watched, had at least one very stressful match.
It's not about winning, losing or 4k, but more to fairness when playing killer. With some killer you have to very focus and play perfectly just to prevent being a toy to very optimal survivors.
Even if you pip it doesn't feel worth it, where in other side survivors would guaranteed a black pip without escaping.
Also to summarize:
Winning or losing as a killer is mostly depend on how good the survivors are, not how good you play as killer, especially weaker one, since there are some aspects that out of killer hand.
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BHVR doesn't balance the game around the high ranks - they don't balance around 4 players playing the best they can to the meta versus one person playing the same. They balance around survivors making mistakes, or playing sub-optimally, and everything tends to center around that.
As a result, a properly communicating / sufficiently skilled survivor party is able to operate at near-full efficiency, doing gens on time while wasting as much of a killer's time as possible. Throw in how perks balance doesn't take in mind that each survivor can have the same perk (going up against 4 DS / BT / DH / ADR is a trip) or items (Try dealing with a kitted out survivor team).
On their own, a lot of survivor perks or items aren't a big deal. But when they stack up, it becomes clear that this game really isn't balanced around being played at a competitive level.
TL;DR this game isn't meant to be played at a competitive level, and I don't think the devs want it to be. That's why high rank is such a chore.
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Don't feel bad about just playing the game. I don't play Killer and I'm a mediocre Survivor, so I haven't experienced this, but from what I've heard, Survivors are significantly advantaged. I dunno if it's as bad as everyone says it is (it's the internet, y'all are hyperbolic as heck) but it definitely seems like something that needs attention if the game is gonna be fun for everyone playing it.
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They don't pander to Survivors. You're just not as good as you think you are.
I am sacrificed more than I escape at R1. A little over 40% of my games last season at R1 were 4k's.
It's a you problem, not a game problem.
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