General Discussions
General Discussions
The fact that ruin is used so much, is a testament that the game is not balanced and poorly designed
Ruin is used waaay too much, killers have no other option, if no ruin is used, gens gets fixed too quickly if you are not using a killer that can apply good map pressure. So is ruin or loose, and is not even a sure thing since it can get broken quickly.
So the fact that they are pretty much forced to use ruin because otherwise they don't have good fighting chance means the game is not correctly desingned. If the game was well designed and balanced there would be no need of so many killers using this perk.
Just my opinion. Don't be saulty
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The same can be said about a number of things, decisive strike and borrow time are so popular because many killers tunnel and camp!
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Well, camping is consider a legitimate technique apparently, so makes sense to have perk to fight that. If camping was punished some other way, maybe the perks wouldn't be even needed, but I really don't see anything happening regarding camping.
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It's not so much that the game is that grossly imbalanced. It really isn't. The core issue is the absolutely abysmal map designs. It's the maps that require the holy trinity of Billy, Spirit, and Nurse against optimal survivors, because they have the mobility for so many of the large maps. The normal-speed killers simply can't do enough.
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I don't think it's encouraged by the developers but it's certainly allowed. Gen rushing is also legitimate. The point that I was trying to illustrate is that there are some mechanics in the game that are commonly used and there are perks to reduce the effectiveness to some extent. I don't want to ever have to run decisive or borrow, but it's basically a must.
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A must like ruin unfortunately.
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What this gentleman said.
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So, not the game mechanics, but the map designs?
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When something is as ubiquitous as Ruin or BBQ, it really ought to be looked at as something to be rolled into the base kit, because we've reached the point where those aren't actually choices, they're borderline mandatory. At least, that's how some game developers might approach it.
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Ruin might be popular, but many ppl have proven it's not REQUIRED. The idea of all teams you've beaten must've been potatoes while the dreaded OPTIMAL survivors would've stomped you is silly. I saw a nice screenshot of @GrootDude getting a 4k with no ruin on Bubba yesterday. Why isn't THAT worth anything?
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Ruin is not a must-use perk. It's just something you use when you're not good at hunting survivors.
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Essentially. There's still plenty of balancing that needs to be done, but yeah. The fundamental problem is that any killer outside the holy trinity just doesn't have any way to put out the pressure required to keep survivors from splitting up and banging out gens at opposite ends of the map.
I think the trend of things with the Freddy rework and Demogorgon design (portals and such)show that they're at least somewhat aware of this.
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But is not fair not to consider the average player, which is most of the player base. Not everyone gets to red ranks or plays every day, so saying you have to use it cause you are not good enough doesn't seem fair and kind of makes my point.
Even if you are an average player ruin shouldn't be soooo necessary
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At the lower ranks, they're also going against lower ranked less experienced survivors. Ruin isn't mandatory there either.
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lI think you are wrong here. "Hex: Ruin" is the best perk to slow down gens early game, if not destroyed of course. Why shouldn't you use it then? Some people want more safety, so they use the less effective perk "Corrupt Intervention".
"Hex: Ruin" is the best perk to give you more time. Again. Why shouldn't you use it?
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@Mochan As someone that currently plays about 80% killer (I've switched to Survivor during the bloodhunt due to queue times and am really liking it, so will be closer to 60/40 or even 50/50 moving forward), I agree.
I unlocked Ruin based on meta-perk this and that and have absolutely hated it. I regret the BP investment for it since I don't even play Hag. It's either cleansed early on, or it simply makes me feel cheap because survivors can't hit the skill checks or I down them while they hunt for it. Keep in mind, I am low rank, play part-time and casually, so will never hit purple or red ranks.
I just don't like its play style. If I want to find survivors easily, I can bust out my Doc with his builds for it. And I've gotten bored of playing him for that reason. Sure, I want to sacrifice survivors, but I don't like the idea of Ruin in my builds. It feels like the ultimate crutch perk to me, and that just isn't my preferred play style.
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The OP is fundamentally right. It is a sign of poor game design. While it is true that players will always gravitate toward some kind of 'meta'. If players feel that they have to take one or two specific options just to be able to play at all then there is a problem with the game. There is a big difference between making a choice because you think it is the best option available and making a choice because it feels like the only option available.
Hex: Ruin definitely feels like the later. No one. And I mean literally no one, brings Hex: Ruin because it is "fun". It doesn't actually do anything for the killer directly. It doesn't help killers chase or hunt survivors. All it does is buy a random amount of extra time to actually play the game. I would gladly see Hex: Ruin deleted from the game if they added a secondary objective for survivors to escape that took at least as long as the average amount of time Hex: Ruin lasted before being destroyed.
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The problem isn’t ruin being used, it’s ruin spawn locations making the perk useless.
Ruin when we’ll hidden does the job.
Also now everyone runs it.
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Individual games prove nothing. There are numerous variables involved in any particular game. So much of a game is determined by the first 2 minutes of the game. Let's just look at a short list of variables every game has that can have a significant impact on the outcome of the game.
- Chosen killer
- Add ons of killer
- Perks of killer
- Offering of killer
- Latency of killer
- Hardware of killer (type of pc, speakers, headset, controllers, etc)
- Experience of killer compared to experience of survivors
- Mindset/Mood of killer (hungry for kills vs just having fun etc)
- Map
- Generator locations on map
- Pallet locations on map
- Basement location on map
- Hook locations on map
- Chest locations on map
- SWF vs Solo survivors (voice comms/coordinated vs no communication/coordination)
- Equipment and addons of equipment brought by survivors.
- Perks brought by survivors
- Mindset/Mood of survivors (escape at all costs vs just having fun etc)
- Latency of survivors
- Hardware of survivors
That is just a partial list of things that can influence the outcome of any one game. So saying something like "remember that one time that that one guy had a good game with that one killer even though he didn't use ruin" truly means nothing at all. The only way to get anything resembling actual evidence would be for the devs to release data gathered from hundreds of thousands of games. These are the questions I would like answered by BVHR regarding Hex: Ruin. All questions I want broken down into 2 categories. Red rank killers vs all ranks.
What is the average % of games where the killer uses Hex: Ruin?
What is the average kill % of games when the killer uses Hex: Ruin?
What is the average kill % of games when the killer does not use Hex: Ruin?
What is the average time when Hex: Ruin is used before the hex totem related to Hex: Ruin is destroyed?
What is the average game length when the killer uses Hex: Ruin?
What is the average game length when the killer does not use Hex: Ruin?
How about it @Peanits? Can we get some data so we can have an intelligent debate instead of just hyperbole and anecdotal evidence?
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At high ranks, I stopped using Ruin because the survivors always hit their great skill checks (red ranks for ya), meaning Ruin doesn't even slow the game down at that rank. I found that thanatophobia and dying light worked much better for me.
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BBQ is necessary because of this game's ridiculous grind. The amount of BP rewarded per-match feels woefully inadequate without it.
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Random things like "chest location" has nothing to do with ruin. Plenty of ppl have done perfectly fine without it. For myself, I first hit rank 1 without even unlocking ruin and playing as Freddy before his rework, when he was "the worst killer". The variables like "chest location" didn't slow me down.
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The problem IMO, is that the maps feel as if they were made for a different game. A game where the intent is 2-4 minute chases. But DBD is a game that requires the killer to get a down every 30-40 or so seconds versus an optimal team.
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There's several choices you can use for game slowdown. Even that's not REQUIRED though. I know I like watching ScorpionZ play Piggy with a build of brutal strength, enduring monitor and whispers. When I played OG Freddy, I also had no slowdown perks.
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Quite dwelling on chest locations. The point is that there are numerous factors that go into determining the outcome of a match. Anecdotal evidence doesn't carry much weight on either side of the argument. You got along fine without it. Great. Snaps for you. Many players feel it is essential. Snaps for them. It would be nice to see actual numbers like the ones I requested.
Data from hundreds of thousands of games minimizes the difference from the variables and isn't biased one way or another. If it turns out games with Ruin last 10 seconds longer and 5% more kills on average then that would be pretty good evidence that ruin is overrated. On the other hand if it turns out games with Ruin last 3 minutes longer and 25% more kills on average then that would be good evidence that Ruin has a big impact. If the results are somewhere in the middle then it would make for a good debate.
But unless that kind of data is released then all we can argue about is our "feelings". I don't know about you, but that feels like a waste of time to me.
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I also played a match without slow down perks and I played a match as Trapper with only three perks (since noed never got used)
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If I show you games where it wasn't needed, it proves it's not REQUIRED. It might HELP, but it's far from REQUIRED. FOOD, is required, without it you have a 100% chance of death. You chance of failure without ruin is NOT 100%, therefore, it's not REQUIRED. Key word in this is required.
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The whole "good and optimal" thing just implies that any team that gets beaten...isn't. Those terms are used to describe the Boogeyman of the nightmare teams you can't possibly win against unless you use this killer and this perk. If I flex as the worst killer in the game with no slowdown perks against 100 teams, someone would just say they must not have been the good and optimal teams THEY face.
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The half of the survivors were red ranks in my Trapper game, here is a match with three red ranks
Although I’m not currently in red ranks, I face red ranks commonly and have been in red ranks a lot, main exception is right now and the last reset, I can hold my own in red ranks without ruin and don’t always use slowdown perks.
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Look at the OP add-ons, lol
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Yep lol, I don’t play with add ons since I just like saving them.
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I'm not trying to argue the merits of specific perk mechanics. The point I'm trying to make is that those two perks show up in what I suspect is the overwhelming majority of matches.
That being the case, they're "mandatory" in terms of player perception, and Behaviour ought to figure out how to address this problem in a way that doesn't leave players feeling that they're must-pick perks for every build.
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If it's just player perception, there's nothing the devs could do anyway. The perk is a placebo effect most of the time. How many skill checks pop up b4 it's broken as opposed to the guarantee effect of corrupt intervention FOR EXAMPLE. Players use it for a FEELING of being in a better position. When they go without it while feeling like they need it... They get the same effect as taking away placebo pills from a sick person. They do worse.
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If you play at red ranks without ruin just expect to have a hard time, regardless of how long Ruin lasts you need to run it to stand a chance at slowing the game down so you can try and win.
It does make me laugh when people post their screenshots of them stomping red rank survivors with less perks/addons or whatever because this doesn't actually prove anything. You can easily hash it off as a one off game because I'm not going to sit there and believe you regularly 4k games with crappy perks and addons with a low/mid tier killer.
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I get what you're saying. I'm looking at it from a standpoint of "You have four perk slots to equip stuff in." But if two of those perks are perceived as being mandatory, and lots of players only ever experiment with two of those slots while feeling like their hands are otherwise tied, things get stale. So, how does that get solved -- even if we're talking about a placebo effect?
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I regularly 4K without add ons as LF, don’t use ruin. It is the truth, your choice to not believe it.
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Show proof then, I don't believe you for a second. Making bold claims like that without a SHRED of proof to back that up makes me inclined to go with my gut and not believe you.
oh yikes you play on console that explains it lol
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Unfortunatly ppl who perceive the perks as mandatory will blindly slap it on everything and ignore all other options. Look at the popularity of enduring + spirit fury for a further example...
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Which is why noed is allowed for people who genrush
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Best proof I can give you is screenshots (which you won’t believe) since I’m not allowed to record/stream my gameplay.
I fail to see how it is a “bold claim”, you can do good once you learn how to play certain killers, some killers just require different strategies to do well (kinda like how survivors have to adapt to different killers).
Btw, if ruin is required then people would never 4K without it, saying it is kinda shows that you probably (I say probably because you might actually be good) aren’t as good as you think. I have no proof that you are good at the game so I’m gonna go with my gut and assume you aren’t.
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NOED is kinda ironic. Ppl claim that it's a newbie perk that you'll grow out of when you get better, but that somehow doesn't apply to ruin.
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I honestly think Spirit Fury is overrated, just drop the pallet early or let the killer keep swinging through pallets.
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I've litterally never equipped it
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This is true lol, although I disagree with noed being a newbie perk.
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That's the general perception of it
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I have, survivors either countered it or got destroyed by it. As survivor I find it easily countered.
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You claim that you regularly 4k with LF using no addons and not using ruin, however what I didn't notice is you playing console.
Try that on PC and you will get demolished quite quickly, claim anything you want on console and I'll believe it.
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The only time it's "uncounterable" is unsafe pallets. On those pallets, survivors HAVE to stun you... But I win those pallets without it anyway...
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Nice pc elitism you got here. PC Isn’t the only place with good survivors or the only platform that matters. Then again, some people will try to find any reason to invalidate someone’s opinion.
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Same
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Not even PC elitism, the amount of control you get with a keyboard and mouse compared to a controller is unreal, if you told me that you did all that on a PC I wouldn't believe you, I will believe you however on a console. Believe me I've been there, you can't argue that point any further.
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