We asked for one thing with the nurse changes...

"stand a chance". She was the best Killer BY FAR for many years. Sure that there will be some Nerf at some day. Nurse is simply outdated Design, if she would have been released today, she would have had such things like a Cooldown or any other Downsides to her Power.

While I agree that more Killers should be Red Rank viable (for me, more Killers are viable in Red Ranks than Nurse or Spirit anyway, but all should be viable), Nurse is over the top. I mean, I faced a Nurse with only Ruin and BBQ yesterday, which just shows how much Bullshit Nurse is, when she only needs two Perks, while other Killers need to think which Perks they want to use (e.g. I want to use my Whispers, BBQ, Enduring and PGTW on my Hillbilly. I would love to use Nurses as well, but would either need to get rid of another Tracking Perk or my only Chase/Slowdown-Perk), while Nurse is fine with only using Tracking and Slowdown Perks... And not even those are needed with her.

I dont think that she will be super-weak with the changes, but can only say something after some testing. At least I hope that many Nurse players will play the PTB so that I can see how it is to play vs the new Nurse.

New nurse will be trash and add on dependent and even so she will still be weaker than her current weakest version.

This is a HUGE nerf

Lol loving how as soon as the best killer in the game for years gets slightly tuned down and everyone loses their minds. This might be a start to BHVR adjusting every killer down the line to all be playable in red ranks!

The debate of no-addon viability is often misguided.

Should addons be required for optimal play? 100%. Going without them should definitely be a disadvantage.

The problem is some killers require ad-ons to get their power to basically function AS a power (Legion and Trapper, for example) while others have powers that 'work' from the get-go but can gain utility, like Plague, Wraith (I can't believe Wraith is being compared positively to anything but the reworks actually did end up making him not a joke even if he isn't good) or to a small extent Myers (who depends heavily on having SOMETHING to interact with stalking, but not specific things like Trapper needing a way to get out traps faster to have his power be worth using. He can go detection, build rate, power duration, or sneaky sneaky, pretty much 100% of his ad-ons are either good or are ultra-rare meme builds done for fone), and Pig (Who basically has a pseudo-wraith cloak and some minor stall that can be tuned in different ways by ad-ons).

Billy and Nurse strike me as violating the opposite of this rule: Their utility isn't really increased that much via addons. Spirit to a lesser extent also doesn't care that much, nor does Cannibal.

So like... the sweet spot is stuff like Plague or Wraith in that their power is a functional kit, and ad-ons are legitimately ad-ons that give an actual gameplay advantage worth getting. I do think some of the Nurse changes helped with this (Such as moving the 'training wheels' down to common so that its easier to learn nurse) but there are 3 things to look out for: Ad-ons being too impactful, ad-ons not being impactful enough, and the base power lacking something that really should be moved from an ad-on to the base power.

Ad-ons should be customizing the experience, and letting a killer player play to strengths or make up for weaknesses, but should not generally decide the game in cases of serious skill gaps. They are a 'tech' tool. If the idea of a killer working without any ad-ons is ridiculous if the match is remotely close, the killer needs to be re-worked.

Trapper is a great example: If the survivors have a remote idea of what they are doing and trapper doesn't have roll-out ad-ons then trapper just loses the game regardless of the skill gap. Their roll-out ad-ons need to be made part of their 'base kit' (or more likely, they should start with 100% of their traps in inventory and shouldn't be able to pick up traps until they empty it, which would solve Trapper's core problem as a killer).

I don't think, and I can't believe I am defending a killer nerf because the killer community deserves nothing but love and support for all the bullshit they have put up with over the years, seems to move the nurse closer to where their ad-ons should be. Not VITAL (A blink is a blink and if you know how to use it your going to land smackaroos with it), but something that lets you customize your experience with multiple viable options to make the character more useful.

Maybe it pushes the nurse's power level down too far. I dunno. I think it might, but if they do that it would be reverted quickly because nurse is the 'Bastion' for 100% dedicated killers and if nurse gets touched too hard the killer population at high ranks would plumet and there would be some pretty extreme corrections to save the game from that reverberating through the entire player-base (like with how they did some major needed survivor nerfs after the first nurse nerf). But the actual CONCEPT of making the power less 'complete' is fine as long as the power still has clear utility and can win games where your better than your opponents by itself.

What I hope that might happen now:

Before the changes, you were not really able to balance. You cannot bring every Killer to Nurse-Level, this would be insane. But now with a lower level, they might be able to buff all other Killers OR change the way the Survivor Objective works. Not really possible to balance around something when there is the Nurse, who simply does not fit into the game (like I said earlier, she is outdated design).

So I would guess that the Nurse-Nerf is something in a bigger picture.

I just wished the bloodpoints add-ons would reward the bloodpoints AFTER the trial, not within so you can max it out and still got the extra bloodpoints.

Add Ons exist for the reason to use them. It is bizarre to think it is ok to have a Killer who does neither need Add Ons nor Perks. How can you balance around that when one Killer does not need this stuff, but others highly depend on using Add Ons?

I doubt that Nurse will be in a state that you have to use certain Add Ons to make her work (like you have to do with Killers like Trapper(Bags) or Wraith(Windstorm/Swift Hunt Combo)), but that different Add Ons give her some different options during the game(like Freddy).

And well, I hope for all Killers to be at roughly the same Level. This is not possible with current Nurse. Maybe it is now better to balance the game, when there is not that one Killer, which has outdated design and breaks the game.

@Aven_Fallen "Add Ons exist for the reason to use them. It is bizarre to think it is ok to have a Killer who does neither need Add Ons nor Perks."

It is bizarre that this should only apply to killers and not survivors.

Survivors at high ranks bring the good stuff either simply because they can or because they wouldn't stay at high ranks without.

And you are derailing. The question we are discussing is: Is it fair that killers have to equip perks + add-ons while survivors don't? If you think "yes, I want it to be that way", just say so and we'll move on.

@Aven_Fallen When you try to trivialise unfairness by saying "fairness is such a subjective thing", then there is really no point here.

It just doesn’t make any sense, only 2 things needed to be changed, extra blinks and omegablink. Why the hell change every other add on making them useless and even butcher her basekit. Unbelievable.

She'll still be top tier without add-ons.