NOED does NOT rewards the killer for playing badly
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My comment was deleted for whatever reason, reposting it.
You want an argument?
Totems are there for a reason mate, they arent there just for a cosmetic purpose, they are a legit secondary objective that survivors avoid most of the time. You even get 1000 BP for them!
If NOED activates in the end, its your fault because you did not do bones. Heck, I would go as far as to say that cleansing all totems is as important as cleansing a 3 token devour hope totem
You cant just gen blitzkrieg and hope there arent consequences in the end.
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Anyone who wants to use NOED, do it. Don't let other players try to tell you how you should play the game. Their opinion is just that, their opinion. The Devs have stated there are no plans to rework NOED, so until then...
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It helps bad killers more than it helps good killers.
And it still is a crutch.
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No One Escapes Death does both in my opinion because there will be times where killers, especially low tier killers, can't prevent the survivors from completing all 5 generators regardless of the killer's skill. However, there are going to be times where a Leather Face camps the first survivor, then y'all rush generators just to be NOED'd later.
Conclusion, No One Escapes Death awards good and bad killers. :)
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Otzdarva also said it rewards bad play and gives undiserved kills
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I think the title should have been "NOED doesn't only reward killers for playing badly" to get your point across cause some people will just hard headed and only think noed is a bad player exclusive perk when it can help a killer who is dealing with something like a full bnp squad or what have you.
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Borrowed time is definitely not a noob perk considering it literally does not protect the one doing the unhooking it's not the perks fault you're trying to be a tunneling piece of trash instead of going for the one who is obviously more vulnerable, the perk is there to stop killers from bullying one survivor
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Im usually the one who gets chased 90% of the time in a match. I have no time to do anything besides hoping my team mates are doing their job.
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You could word basically half the perks in the game as rewarding failure. SELF CARE REWARDS BAD SURVIVORS WHO GOT HIT. DS REWARDS BAD SURVIVORS WHO GOT HOOKED. BOND REWARDS BAD SURVIVORS WITH NO GAME AWARENESS. Etc, etc.
NOED is a crutch just as much as DS, Adrenaline, BT, etc etc are crutches.
And no it's not the ultimate second chance perk, that goes to DS. DS + deliverance and you get your own free escape + second life. Make it to the endgame with deliverance and DS up still and you are basically invincible within a huge radius of the exit doors and can do stupid plays to save teammates and not be punished at all; with 0 counterplay other than you missing DS.
Post edited by Gcarrara on2 -
honestly, i find the whole mindset of NOED "rewarding the killer" to be wrong.
if that were the case, the killer would have to actively do something to activate the perk - and when he does that required thing it should always activate.
but that is not the case. NOED is 100% survivor reliant and the killer cant control weather he gets it or not.
thats why imo the perk does not "reward", rather "punish". instead of "rewarding" a killer for something, it punishes survivors for not doing something - totems.
Post edited by Mister_xD on1 -
Does no one else see NOED as an alternative to Ruin? Instead of slowing the gens in the beginning, you punish the gen rush in the end.
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It also punishes them for not playing around it, for example by not finishing a generator when the killer is coming directly towards them.
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I myself get alot of milage outta STBFL+ Corrupt+ Thrilling+ Surge!
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@WickedKatz You still didn't really answer me though. Alot of Low Tier Killers don't have "Map Pressure." Such as Clown. Sometimes just cause you want to play Wraith or Clown or Legion or whatever, you are shooting yourself in the leg with trying to effect the match enough even to kill 2. You have to play harder or in ways you don't really like to "win".
Surely you can agree it shouldn't be this way.
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If you can admit and give some examples of situations where borrowed time can be used to bully a killer, and reward bad game play, then maybe we can have a constructive discussion.
If your intentions are to simply pick apart things people say and skew them to form an argument that isn't on topic, then you're just attacking the strawman and not contributing to the discussion at hand.
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Well you can still score well and pip even if then gens get completed, so 5 gens being done doesn't always mean the killer has failed. Just like a survivor can score well and pip but still be sacrificed. Correct?
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NOED is so easy to counter there's no excuse to not do those totems. I don't personally use it but I've on my own taken out all 5 totems in games before 2 gens got finished. It's easy to shut down if you really don't like being killed with NOED.
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If there is a clear counter to a perk and you refuse to try and counter it and instead whine then it is indeed laziness. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'd happily rework/nerf NOED if Adrenaline got nerfed too.
Before you say Adrenaline doesn't reward failure then here is why it does:
1) Killer wins a chase and you get insta healer
2) Killer closes the hatch (you failing to do gens AND failing to find the hatch) and you get back up
Honestly I'd be perfectly fine is Adrenaline was changed to where if someone goes into the dying state Adrenaline doesn't heal you until you are picked back up. It's fair at that point because the killer doesn't close pressure because they won a chase and then boom Adrenaline pops.
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Game isn't over until survivors escape so no, it doesn't, cleanse totems
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Just like NOED, survivors can not touch a single generator and still get Adrenaline. Does Adrenaline require X amount of gen completions PER survivor to activate? Does it have a requirement to activate? Nope, just like NOED it activates upon the completion of the last generator or the closure of the hatch.
Adrenaline can reward bad plays too. Here are two scenarios in which Adrenaline rewards failure:
1) Killer closes hatch meaning you failed to complete gens and you failed to find hatch but Adrenaline still activates.
2) Killer wins a chase and downs you, boom adrenaline pops removing the pressure from the killer and possibly denying them a kill. Rewarding you on failing the chase and punishing the killer for winning the chase.
In my opinion NOED and Adrenaline are as bad as each other. I don't mind Adrenaline when survivors are not engaged in a chase but the thing that annoys me about Adrenaline is the fact that it can cost me a kill because ANOTHER survivor did all gens.
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NOED 90% of the time is used for playing poorly as killer and you all know it. Trying to argue otherwise is just nonsense, it's why you see rampant use of NOED at green/brown and half the time at purple ranks.
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And NOED is there to stop survivors bullying killer lol
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Believing that NOED rewards killer failure is as naive as believing DS is an anti-tunnel perk.
People forget that most killer characters in this game are garbage and that map RNG exists. If I could play Nurse on Crotus Penn or Spirit on Autohaven every match then cool, I’ll never use NOED again.
Unfortunately though I enjoy using killers like Trapper, Clown, Bubba, and Plague. M1 killers who are pure doodoo against great survivors. I had a Trapper game on a swamp map earlier and before I could even get to my Ruin to trap it, two survivors spawned on it and one cleansed it. So I fail if survivors pop all the gens here? Seems like it’s inevitable to me, unless the survivors are just potatoes.
Hell on a lot of maps are Trapper or sometimes Hag you can have two gens popped before you even finish trapping the map up, worse if you don’t run Corrupt or Ruin.
Anti-NOED nonsense is almost always just salt from ignorant survivor mains who are upset that they died to it.
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So you won due to the survivors complete incompetence lol okay
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And you as a survivor main are going to of course, counter with noed being overpowered in a game where the entire survivor objective can get done in literally under 5 minutes with ruin up. Just keep perspective buddy.
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I'm a Killer Main with over 1000 hours.
In my opinion, NOED does reward bad gameplay and is OP or at least badly designed.
I'm not a great player, myself, I consider myself to be more of an average player both as Killer and Survivor. I have played the game for a while and have been to Rank 1 as both.
It is my opinion that players who use and defend use of NOED overall are less experienced, with less understanding of the game.
I see a lot of Killers who simply don't know how to chase efficiently and do not understand what it means to apply pressure on a team and how to do it.
I've seen Killers committing to a chase against strong Survivors around strong loops (Coal Tower's main building into a chain of jungle gyms and back again) for 3-4 gens who then complain that gens go too fast.
And there's a lot of tunneling. I've been tunneled for an entire match by a Trapper who outright refused to change targets until he finally caught me (exit gates were powered by then). I've been chased pretty much for an entire match on Wretched Shop by a Killer who simply did not understand that the Hag is not a long-range chaser who can just run after Survivors with zero prep and that there are four Survivors to deal with.
A lot of this comes down to moving inefficiently during chases, not having the game sense to know what chases to take and what chases to just leave, when to slug, when to go back to a hooked Survivor, what gens to patrol and defend and which gens to sacrifice.
Again, I'm not saying I'm a master of any of these skills, but I do understand that becoming aware of them and keeping them in mind makes a huge difference.
I see Killers making huge mistakes all the time. Killers who seem to believe that every chase must end in a hook and who will run after one Survivor to the ends of the earth for minutes upon minutes.
Killers camping or chasing a Survivor to a hook and try to position themselves to hit the unhooked Survivor instead of taking a free hit (or even a down) on the rescuer, getting Borrowed Time'd, then tunneling the unhooked, getting DS'd and still tunneling the unhooked through a strong loop until they just lose.
If I chase someone for more than 15 seconds and the chase does not result in a hit or me getting at least one pallet out of the way, I ######### leave that Survivor and change targets.
If I get a map like Coal Tower, I will sacrifice the tower gen every time. If I chase someone on that map and they so much as glance at the direction of The Tower of Bullshit, I drop the chase.
If I chase someone and realize they're very good Survivors, they are not worth my time and I will try to catch them at another time through altruism.
There are areas on every map where you simply do not want to take a chase. There are some Survivors you simply have to give up on during the early game phase. There are gens on every map that are simply not worth the time to patrol and defend.
Yes, Killers overall are weak or at least disadvantaged compared with Seal Team 6 Survivor squads who know to split pressure and which gens to contest first. That doesn't mean we can't do anything at all against them.
Most Survivors out there are not Seal Team 6, however. Not even most SWFs.
None of this justifies NOED and anyone who compares NOED with Adrenaline simply does not understand the game.
If you think that you are completely powerless to slow down the gens without a Perk or that you cannot apply pressure at all because you are playing a weaker Killer, you are just not a very good Killer yet.
Yes, your ability to apply pressure will be harder and yes, sometimes the Survivors are just too strong - but that's how it should be: if the Survivors band together well, split pressure well and chase well, they fully deserve their win. It's not as fair if they're a 4-player SWF on comms who play the game like it's the Olympics, and those do have an unfair advantage over Killers - but play Survivor in solo queue for a week and by Tuesday you will fully understand why they exist.
It's true that you will probably lose automatically by going against those, but even they are not unbeatable and you can at least play well and get something out of that match - and yes, Seal Team 6 squads can be beaten. With good pathing, rotation and a bit of luck.
Am I personally confident in my ability to do so? No, but do I think that the one Seal Team 6 squad I'll face out of a dozen casuals who run around like headless chickens justifies NOED? Absolutely not.
There are characters like Legion who are simply very weak right now. That said, I have 4k'd as Legion in the purple ranks against good Survivors and on a map that was terrible for me and they didn't get to power the exit gates at all.
Is it because I'm a god? ######### no, I'm a potato. I managed to seize on their mistakes, kept a cool head, changed targets, applied pressure on multiple Survivors and minded my rotation.
I know a lot of you will eat my head now and completely disagree with me, and that's ok. Without sounding conceited, some of you simply have less time in the game. I was just like you when I had 200-400 hours. Just like growing up in real life, there are phases you just go through. When you gain more experience and understanding of the game, you might see things differently - and maybe not, and that's ok too. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and if you think that everything I said is false and NOED is the bomb, then I wish you all the best.
If I can give newer Killer Mains some advice, I would say: Watch experienced streamers, keep playing the game, try to gain a wider understanding of it. Play Survivor for a while to learn the game from our prey's perspective. Don't be afraid to play against strong Survivors and don't sink into a pit of bitterness and despair over a bad match. We all make mistakes and there's always room for improvement.
Consider bad matches a learning experience. Don't lose your head because a Survivor teabags. Think of the game more like a strategic match, like chess. Look back at your own matches and try to analyze them objectively - what have you done that might have been a mistake? How can you improve next time? What should you have done instead of what you did?
And if you feel yourself relying on any one Perk, try playing without it for a while.
And finally, Brothers and Sisters in the Entity, may your feet never know Haddonfield and your hooks always be warm.
Good luck and see you in the Fog.
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I never use NOED because to me it's a waste of a perk slot and I can do far much better without it. I might defend it but that's only when I heard things like Adrenaline is fine and doesn't reward failure, DH is not a second chance (literally you failed at a loop so you press a key to not go down), etc.
If no one was spewing "survivors have no second chances" or "survivors are allowed second chances but killers are bad if they use them" then I would be down for nerfing NOED. I'm just trying to open up the eyes on the people who heavily cry for nerfs but then think nothing else is wrong with the game.
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Woo that was long. I just want to add that I too can 4k as Legion in purple and red ranks, cause I've played them FOREVER. Teaches you alot. Heck, when I play another Killer i feel like that guy in the Kung fu movies that take off the weighted clothes and fight for real for once. So why do I play Legion? Cause they are very fun to me. I love the Rush down style. Heck, that's why I have a long thread in Feedback trying to get ideas for Legion's power.
I really liked how eloquent you were in this post, and I wish you fun in the Fog too.
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Not to be a jerk. but... Gens are not the objective...surviving is and saying you suck cause they did all the gens is wrong. And here's why
This game is balanced 2 dead 2 escape
So if you kill 3 and one opens and leaves you still win.
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I only put on noed against a swf group or when Im playing M1 killers that cant down immediately without it.
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Right...just like Ruin isn't a crutch perk for players who select killers who can't map control...
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Main objective is to kill players. It does not specify that they have to be dead before gates are powered.
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I have 100,000 hours with this game. Your opinion doesn't matter to me.
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I just wont argue anymore. People just say the exact same thing like numbers win facts, and it is very exhausting to say anything against people who defend Noed
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I think the reason NOED gets a lot of complaints is because it's a perk that you never know if the killer has it or not. It's extremely apparent if Ruin is on, but you never know if NOED is. And more importantly, it's a perk that surely has a presence but clearly isn't used enough if people would rather rush Gens. If NOED were to be run more often, survivors would be more expextent of it and cleanse totems.
My opinion is that if you're really that terrorfied of NOED, then do the totems. I've never played above purple ranks, and even then a lot of survivors are smart enough to cleanse totems. It's a perk that hinges on what the survivors do, to the point where you don't even have to see it at all throughout the entire game. And Gens can be done fast enough as it is, you can take that time out of the Gens and on the totems.
And even then it's still an opertunity cost because you may not even need it at all and could have used the perk on more viable perks, which there are. That's the main reason some killers don't run it, they sometimes may not even think they need it. Or it gets killed before the five Gens are done. It's a huge hit or miss perk, no middle ground whatsoever. If it's up it's really good or you may never use it.
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The entire survivor objective can be done in less than 3 minutes actually. If the killer doesnt do anything, 4 people do one gen each and the stack on the last one, opening the gate in 20 seconds after. That is about 100 seconds plus 50 seconds plus 30, so yeah, given all survivors are able to hit all great skill checks, and have perfect game sense to find gens, and the killer doesnt patrol ONE SINGLE TIME or enter ONE CHASE, yeah, the objective can be done in under five minutes. Also, quit being childish, i have devotion 4 and have 5 killers p3, just because my opinion is different from yours, it doesn't mean i am a entitled "survivor main" or you are a righteous "killer main", those are stupid terms and there is no relation between thinking noed rewards bad players and only playing survivor
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The thing is, map control is not a killer power thing. Map control is the hability to prevent gen and chase multiple survivors, injuring/hooking/killing. Every killer in game (except old freddy) has the ability to patrol gens and to hit survivors, so map control is not imbued onto the Spencer's Last Breath or the Yamaoka's Haunting, people just don't understand killers are different. The reason Nurse and Spirit are so "top tier" is simply because they are mindless to play, you see, you blink, you hit, you see, you blink, you kill. And this is bad for the game (both are balanced) since people wont try different playstyles with the other killers. The trapper, the demogorgon and the hag are territorial killers, so playing them and complaining when you cant patrol gens across the map is DUMB, and saying they are weak because you dont 4k 5 gen every time makes no sense. Aside from the 2 incredibly underpowered killers (bubba and Wraith), all killers can play very decent games against decent players.
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No, the survivors weren't bad, i was using a very strong build that made me unstoppable on the situation they were. I had Pop Goes The Weasel to reset the gen every time i hooked a survivor and 8 stacks on save the best. Also, i would just throw bottles on the gens from far away and they would scream, showing me their location. Also, every player has lost a 3 gen situation and it doesn't mean they are bad, it is just a very opressive position for the survivors
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Personally my issue with NOED is consistency and cleansing totems. I do agree that NOED punishes survivors for not being overly cautious but the thing is NOED has such a sudden impact on the game that if you do play cautiously it can make the game very frustrating when it turns out the killer didn't have NOED after all.
If Totems had a reason to be cleansed aside from POTENTIAL threats I feel as though NOED would be fine and less frustrating to deal with. You could argue that there are perks and other incentives to cleanse totems but at the end of the day no one really cares about Emblem and Bloodpoints as those don't directly affect gameplay. Not everyone is going to be running Inner Strength either.
I do believe NOED as a perk is balanced but the way NOED activates is frustrating to deal with. I don't believe NOED is a crutch perk either but rather one of those Ace in the hole perks for the late game. I'd just like to see totems specifically looked at so there's always a reason to cleanse them that's tied to gameplay and isn't just a gamble on whether you wasted time or not.
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This comment should be pinned on the foruns, it certainly would help a lot of issues on the forum
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it still counts towards embelems if im not mistaken? so is surviving not an objective as it scores survival points?
its still something survivors can do and further MUST do if they want to prevent NOED rather than winge about it.
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It counts on the lightbringer emblem because it is a help to the team, but it is more because of hex perks like ruin and devour, since they have a direct impact on the game
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Sure, every killer in the game CAN apply map pressure. Depending on the map. And the survivors. But the fact of the matter is a majority of the killers are very weak when it comes to map pressure and controlling a chase. The maps are designed to give the survivors numerous avenues to extend chases far beyond what they should be able to given the time it takes to do gens. And no, Spirit and Nurse aren't popular and top tier because they're "mindless" or easy to use, they're top tier because they are second to none when it comes to ending chases. That's how you apply map pressure as a killer, you have survivors down or hooked, forcing other survivors to make choices and extend the game. You also have high mobility killers like Billy or Fred with his teleport. Much better at applying map pressure than someone like Trapper or Wraith or Bubba or Plague or Legion etc etc.
The Clown is the killer the person you quoted was mentioning, and he's a great example of how a killer power affects map pressure. His power is worthless for map pressure. All he can do is potentially end chases faster, though it rarely works out that way thanks to the abundance of pallets and vaults survivors have. With good add-ons he can end chases faster and help his map pressure some, but it's still extremely weak. And while you're chasing one survivor through the middle building on Crotus Penn, eating pallets and hopping windows, the other survivors are powering through the gens. "but but, just abandon the chase!" Yeah, and waste time. You aren't applying map pressure that way. You're trading one survivor not on gens for another. And sure, sometimes that survivor is worse, and you can draw the stronger survivor out to make a save, but this all takes a lot of time, time you don't have as killer.
It's not hard at all to knock out give gens as survivor. I hit rank 1 every season on both, as do many others here. The game is not balanced to handle four above average survivors against most of the killers in the game. If you take these killers you don't rely on your skill to win, you rely on survivors making mistakes. There's nothing wrong with taking NOED into these games with these doodoo killers on the off chance all the gens get done and they didn't cleanse all the totems. At that point survivors only have themselves to blame and the killer hasn't even lost the match yet.
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While i do agree the game in unbalanced for clown, wraith and bubba, some killer have an advantage for not being good at map pressure. The trapper for example is very good at maintaining a 3 gen, and that applies to the hag and demogorgon as well. But spirit and nurse are pretty mindless to play, and that is definitely what attracts players to them
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And also, the chase end point you made is pretty wrong. The hillbilly has an ever bigger potential to end chases (watch ayrun play him, you will see), but the controls for him are pretty hard and it takes time. Also, huntress is a killer that can end chases instantly, and trapper can kill you without even starting the chase.
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so they were bad... and let the game come to a 3 gen situation
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That is more on the killers control than their's
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not when you're playing a killer like clown who has nearly no map pressure to affect the game to that extent
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Gens are the objective. Punishing that is stupid and bad gameplay design.
Genrush isn't a thing.
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Apprently, it's the killer's fault they were 3 genned, but it's not the survivor's fault when they allow NOED to activate/remain active.
DBD Forum Logic @_@
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