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Generator Speed Opinions/Discussion!
So in recent times I've noticed survivors playing differently against some of the stronger killers. At the higher ranks and against stronger teams, they all have the same strategy. Its not looping, or hiding. Its do gens as quickly as possible. Not vilifying survivors for doing this. Its your one objective. Its honestly how I get to rank 1 as survivor. In all honesty the peak of noticing this was when I played Gen Grabber Spirit. Even with that build downing survivors in less than 1-15 seconds gens would fly by without ruin. What I'm saying is that if Killers play the way the game wants them to (IE 3 hooks per survivor, staying far from hooks, no slugging) it reaallly hurts killers. I'm not saying that they should nerf gen speed or anything like that, but I would enjoy a discussion on this issue. Some people think they are to quick, some think its fine. Just want to get everyone's opinions on this issue, whether your new, a veteran, killer or survivor main. Lets really dissect this and get into this.
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I don't have an issue with the generator speeds. I don't have that competitive drive a lot of the community seem to share, it's a fun game and I don't care if I pip depip rank up whatever. I mainly just like to chase and hack at people with a machete.
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Gen speed should be reduced in half. But 10 gens should be required to light the exit gates and there should be 12 generators total on the map.
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I would dare to say that this would take a lot of the strategy out of the game. Having generators take the time that they do adds points of contention on the map. I can hook a survivor near a generator that I know is almost done to keep pressure on it and stop it from going off while and keep an eye on the hooked survivor as well. If there's more generators and they take half as long, that strategy goes out the window. They can just switch to a different generator and get it done in no time anyway.
Fewer generators also means fewer places to check. If I have to check double the generators and a couple have a little bit of progress on them, finding survivors is going to be way harder.
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Well I feel it got worse when they added killers that could either mitigate or bypass the looping defense survivors had - clown with his slow bottles, Legion with his frenzy, Plague puking over everything (and making healing worthless), Spirit making mind games more of a luck thing. In that time they nerfed healing to a degree - it's even looked down upon to take Self Care now.
So yeah, now what's left is gens and with all the exposed and aura read crap they like to add every update, doing gens fast is the most reliable way to make sure you have a shot at the escape.
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To be honest i only find issue with generators if im playing against a swf team and have a low level killer or just a killer im not used to that sorta thing. If i play spirit or hag im usually fine no matter what. But it sucks that after around rank 10 maybe i might have to only play those two if i want to win.
Bare in mind that with prove thyself and 3 people on a generator with toolboxes the gen can be complete within 15-20 seconds. I feel like thats insane when you think about it.
But also that does take just about the same amount of time as 3 people doing seprate gens because all 3 would have to move gen to gen together while you chase one survivor for a minuite.
All of that is no ruin though but then again ruin is gone immediately half the time anyway
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How about 10 gens 75% speed.
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Generators definitely can be repaired too quickly but whether by accident or design the actual process is so boring that survivors often go and do something else once they feel the game is going their way which helps killers a lot.
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Personally I think you can really only dissect it on a case by case basis.
Why? Because if you are dealing with a Wraith with no Ruin, unable to get from one side of the map, he is going to have more trouble than. Freddy running Thana/Ruin/Pop with a built in teleport and ability to spam snares at will cutting the chases in half.
For me generators speed are fine because there are many tools to allow to slow them down. If they were to slow down the speed... builds like the one pointing above would become disgustingly OP.
The problem I feel lies in the accessibility of powers for SOME killers. They gave Freddy like 2 different killer powers in one. Smart choice but now you have him looking too OP against other killers who really needed a buff (whether it be on mobility or variation in their power).
The other thing that people often don’t discuss in these forums that I’ve noticed is skill level gap. It’s crucial to understand that you can’t really go into a match without even slightly pressuring gens. Many people have posted videos as “evidence” and while I don’t want to assume it is very clear from the videos that they missed the mark on this objective as killer.
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I honestly think the gen speed is in a reasonable place right now. I kept a spreadsheet last month where I recorded escapes over 100 games and it was right at 50% playing at ranks 1-5. That makes me think the gen speed is pretty balanced. A little more anecdotally, I’ve also had a few 4K games as Bubba with no ruin just this week.
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If I could experiment with gen speed I would try this:
- Remove the 'Hex' from Ruin and put it into the base kit of all killers (so its not really a perk anymore)
- Make the GREAT zones of generator skill checks the same size as a DS skillcheck
- Remove the 2% bonus progression when you hit a great skill check zone
- GOOD skills check zones result in 3% regression, but doesn't temporarily disable generator repair as it currently does
I honestly have no idea how that would actually play out in game, but on paper it seems there could be some potential to encourage more skilled play by hitting better skill checks while keeping generators at a healthy speed.
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I'd always thought that limiting the % that a survivor could repair a gen would help this issue.
Like a single survivor could only repair a single gen up to 60%. If two or more survivors were on a gen then it could be finished as normal, but a single survivor would have to move on to another gen when the cap is reached.
This would keep the time spent on gens the same for survivors, but give the killer more time since survivors would have to move between gens in order to complete them.
Some adjustments would be needed, but that's the general idea.
Edit: This would also make shroud of separation a good offering rather than a penalizing one.
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reported for camping omg!
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The issue that I have with the gens is what you stated.... it's my only objective..... the gameplay doesnt change (no matter the killer), doesnt keep me interested, I find myself ending up having to throw myself at the killer just get some excitement (this shouldnt be the case)..... I'm in a realm ruled by an evil entity and I find myself just not tense unless it's GF or prayer beeds spirit....
I want more dangers... I want to be pressed as survivor I dislike that I get more of the rush as killer that I would like from survivor....
It's a plauge.... well let's negate her power as long as we can.... it's a doc.... well, let's work gens till tier3, snap out of it and continue working.....
Survivor life is boring easy with how gens are atm.
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When I started the game, I used to focus on downing survivors when I found them, regardless of how long it took. But now, I have a better idea of when to follow a surv and when to stop after injuring them. Injure multiple survivors and the game can slow down dramatically as they try to heal, especially if they're not sticking together; restoring one health state with self care takes 32 seconds, or about half the time it takes to finish a generator.
Granted, there are lots of survivors who aren't hindered by this as they've mastered cycling through each member of their team to be hooked. By the 8th hook action most, if not all, gens will be repaired.
Playing killer sometimes feels like one of those assignments you're given, where there's more work to do than you can reasonably accomplish in the time you've been given. That's especially true when dealing with a SWF group that has comms; four people collaborate and analyze your behavior, while you try to analyze four separate people. You try to maintain a random playstyle while tracking: map pressure, survs in the distance, survs with flashlights during pickups and countering 360s, waiting for dead hards, avoiding long chases, sorting all of the sound effects that are exactly the same for everything that happens. Oh and keeping an eye out for the hatch, then quickly committing it's location to memory just before you return to the 3rd smallest generator aura in the distance that you swear was yellow a moment ago.
But, it can't be that bad because I keep playing it.
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I'll be honest, we might need to just completely overhaul the main objective. The consensus seems to be that generators are really, really boring for the survivors.
What I'd like to see is an objective along the line of Deathgarden: Bloodharvest. You collect an item at one location, then deposit it at a different location to make progress on the objective.
To encourage interaction with the killer, maybe instead of telling the Killer where you are every time you turn in your tokens, it could be a mechanic along the line of Freddy's alarm clocks, where a specific location is marked out for you (usually on the other side of the map) and you have to reach it in order to make progress on the objective?
That way, the survivor can complete the objective safely if they stay hidden, but that'll take much longer than just sprinting over to the objective (Which makes it much easier for the killer to find you). There'd be a lot more risk/reward assessment and planning that goes into completing the objectives.
But of course, overhauling the main objective is asking a lot from the devs.
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Gen speeds are fine. Maps are not. There are too many safe loops and structures for experienced players to utilize. Map size is also an issue for less mobile killers. I think the pacing of the game is ok. Games shouldn't take 15-20 minutes. I won't pretend it's an easy fix to balance maps in asymmetrical game. If you balance asymmetrical gameplay for the most experienced players, you leave a prohibitively steep learning curve for newer players.
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The generator speed is mostly fine, the bigger issue is map design and sometimes some chase balance issues such as to much big open loops without mindgame potention, especially on older maps.
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10 gens 25% speed take it or leave it
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So its the devs fault for making bad maps got it
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Just make all maps like hawkins and were good
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Except nobody plays that dead game so we probably shouldn't take ideas from it
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Any tweaks to game length will be huge buffs to tunneling and camping.
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The pallets on Hawkins are more or less what they should move to. The killer having to mindgame every jungle gym tile to provoke a mistake on maps like Coldwind means those tiles are one-sided by definition. The pallets on Hawkins give survivors the opportunity to force killers to overcommit to one side and make it to another pallet or vault.
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Yeah then survs would have to play smart
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I would say fix all the survivor-sided maps first. And later on if gens are still being completed too fast, then I would say tinker with the gen repair values.
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Map creator when
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Do you realize how awful and unfair that would be for high rank solo players?
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I honestly think it's the beggining of the match that's the biggest problem, once you get some momentum, the game slows down and the game speed is fine, it's just that if 2-3 gens get done before the 1st hook you don't have time to build up the momentum, and if you do, it doesn't even matter since the gens are almost done anyway ... Just make it so "The Entity's impact is stronger at the beggining of the trial" and all the gens get progressed 50% slower for the first minute or so. This would give killers some very necessary time to "get goin". Of course it doesn't have to be a 50% slow, it could be some other sort of penalty, but you get the idea.
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i also think that times have changed. top strategy vs a strong killer is always to get the gens done fast. i noticed that nearly every game in red ranks after or in the first chase 2 or 3 gens pop. not much you can do as killer. theres no killer that can pressure 4 gens at the same time. and if the killer plays without tunneling and camping he stands no chance even in solo queue rank 1. doesnt look like slower gen progression will fix that. also it will kill the game for ranks below red where killer seems to be stronger.
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I think they go too quick. It doesn't really take a lot of concentration to repair gens: hold down a button, hit the occasional skill check. The skill checks can slow down new survivors a lot, but it often seems like experienced survivors could sleep-click through them. Repairing generators should be more interesting, more interactive for survivors. The difficulty of repairing should scale with survivor rank or devotion or something. That's how I feel, anyway.
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gens are fine to be honest theres some maps that are just to large to do anything without slow down perks
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Just an idea boys, but what if there were perks that were permanently part of a killers/survivors kits? Killers get Ruin and Survivors get DS. Leaves room for more creative builds.
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I agree with this. Also, perhaps some penalty for looking away from the gen? Not much but if you swivel your camera to look for the Killer you arn't focused on the gen so it lowers speed? I'm not sure about the idea, so what do you think about it?
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Genrushers are noobs ... The best of this game is juke and chase by the killer .
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It's certainly a possibility, though it may be difficult to implement due to survivors' third-person POV. It would really depend on how the gameplay of repairing generators is changed.
Adjusting the generators is a conundrum. Whatever it is has to work on both PC and console. If it's something too engrossing, stealth killers suddenly become too strong. If it's too easy, survivors will never fail it and set off a noise notification. Do you have the survivors fetch parts from around the map?
Usually, difficulty of something scales so that it doesn't take too long for new players but also doesn't go too quickly for experienced players. It's a problem that that isn't in play in DbD. As is, once you get used to repairing gens, it just becomes such a mindless task. Puzzles are a staple of most horror games but would be nearly impossible to add here.
I haven't played any other asymmetrical games to know how they handle the victims' tasks.
Post edited by TragicSolitude on0 -
Yeah, it really is wonky from a design perspective. Gens go the fastest when resources (pallets) are reduced, but the resources are plentiful enough that being efficient with them doesn't really matter if your teammates are actually at their desks and playing the game. This is coupled with the fact that optimal survivors are insanely hard to kill quickly, but gens are easy to do quickly. So the first 60 seconds of the match often goes halfway to determining the outcome.
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I believe I saw someone suggest the part thing before but it was shot down being "Killers could just stand on the part and take the game hostage." or some such. One of the major issues I feel like in this game, feedback wise, is that people will argue for something broken because they are used to having it, and against something on the other side because they personally don't like dealing with it. It makes it hard to have constructive feedback between that type of hypocritical behavior and the very real "Us Vs. Them" Mentality. Alot of good ideas get buried in Rhetoric or merely cause one side refuses to change. Both sides are guilty of that.
I got off on a bit of a tangent there, sorry. I honestly am not sure HOW to fix the gens with a puzzle or something. Perhaps have one stage where you fix the gen like normal, then add gas or something? I do think the gen issue is one of the core, but more intensive, changed needed. Survivors get tired of holding just m1, so they do it faster, putting pressure on Killers not designed to handle it now.
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That's a ridiculous argument: just like there are an excess of generators on the map--seven when survivors only need to complete five--there'd be an excess of parts on the map. People will come up with any excuse to not even consider something.
"I do think the gen issue is one of the core, but more intensive, changed needed. Survivors get tired of holding just m1, so they do it faster, putting pressure on Killers not designed to handle it now."
Yeah. One good survivor can waste a lot of the killer's time; the generators should provide some challenge for the other three survivors.
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I agree that it is a ridiculous argument, and in fact I think I remember saying that to the person that said it. I feel like alot of people get that way with Keys and Moris as well. "Franklin's counters Keys!" when it doesn't. OR the whole argument that Moris save less time then keys to use. As I said, I feel that both sides have.... outspoken members that yell all day about the other side and how "OP" they are but defend to the death anything they have that is "OP". Much like the people that DC against Spirit every time because she's "Broken" And don't learn how to deal with her, but then BM every Lower Tier Killer they can find. (sorry for two survivor examples there, first ones that popped into my mind)
It makes sense as a cycle. Higher rank Survivors get tired of just holding m1. So what do they do? Make there builds go as fast as they can. This makes the Killer be under ALOT of pressure if they, in turn, don't use slowing perks and add-ons. It's a vicious cycle, that is ultimately on the Survivor side, as a Killer can only chase one at a time, where as the other three can hide when he gets near or just work as fast as they can.
I do not believe gens are fine, when Killers that are not using the most meta things can have 2-3 gens pop before the first down. But I have No real idea HOW to fix it. Though, that being said, I do not think that is just the gens fault there. There are many many ways for a Survivor to waste the Killer's time, and I feel that most Killers are not equipped to get that time back. Map spawns and powers also play a role in it, as well as alot of the "Second Chance" perks (though I understand why those are there)
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I think gen rushing is the only counter to some killers like Nurse or Spirit when there's a lot of pressure. Their uncontested chase power puts a lot of pressure on survivors to get out as fast as possible and when they do, they likely just barely escaped death hook. Increasing gen speeds or adding another objective would mean these two killers needing a serious nerf. Their chase potential is too high to consider giving them more time.
Its the weaker killers who have a problem. They don't have any real means to counter gen rushing by only using their ability (Doctor) or end chases nearly as fast as they should be (Clown). There is also a lot killers who have a set up period or prerequisite for their power that takes up time they don't have (Myers, Plague, Trapper), which makes some matches impossible to win depending on tbe map.
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Agreed, finding good Survivors is hard as it is haha..
That would only work really well if a Killer ran Surveillance and Discordance together probably also with BBQ.. it's actually a great Perk combo that I run often already, but if there were even more gens to check then this would probably be the only way to do it lol..
Although I suppose then under those circumstances the Killer actually would be at an advantage.
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You don't have to apologize, it's not like your examples are wrong. Also, I wouldn't consider myself a survivor main. Or a killer main. Just a player. If I lean in any direction, I probably lean more towards a killer-friendly attitude; solo survivor may be an often frustrating experience, and solo survivors definitely need buffs, but playing killer is way more stressful. There's a lot of pressure on the killer; survivors do not have that kind of pressure on them. At least, I don't when I play survivor.
There are a lot of ways for survivors to waste a killer's time, and the only thing that puts pressure on survivors is the killer. The map itself provides no hurdles, no dangers. So, that leaves working on gens. While many things may need tweaking, I'd say gens should come first, because the speed at which they're completed effects everything else.
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Doing gens as fast as possible is an effective way to leave fast but that alone isn’t enough to pip. But some people don’t care about pips, they just do the objective and leave. I don’t think gen times are the problem, I think there needs to be more for survivors to do in matches when they aren’t being chased. There should be more incentive to keep survivors in the game longer.
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True enough, and thank you. I honestly don't like the "Killer Main" and "Survivor Main" thing, as well. I play Killer, but I try and think for both sides of the game because in the end, the GAME is what we want to live on. Not the Killers or the Survivors specifically.
I agree that the maps should hold some type of danger, after all we are in the Entity's realm. You'd think there would be vines that would attack or something to keep people on there toes. Perhaps there just hasn't been a way to work that in? But yes, there is a ton of ways that good survivors can do to waste the Killer's time, and there isn't a fool proof answer to most of them other than Blood Lust. That is bad map design among other things.
I also agree that Killer is MUCH more stressful. You are alone, and you have to keep 4 people running around from doing there objective. That alone is bad enough but it seems the Killer has no real control over the pace of the match then that. You have to be constantly thinking if you are wasting too much time in a chase, if that Meg you knocked down has been hooked in the last 60 seconds, is that gen being worked on, where did that Claudette go in the corn? Should I swing this time or will that get me a pallet stun I can't afford to take? Should I use my power or will it be more useful later... and so on. It is always much harder to be on Killer, stress wise. I'm not sure the game is balanced right because of that.
Also, yes, there is ALOT of things that need tweaking, but gens should come first. They are the crux of the whole match and the turning point. If you can pressure them and keep them down as Killer you win, if you can't keep them down then you lose. A perfect Survivor team will always beat a Perfect Killer. After all, the Killer can't be in 4 places at once.
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I think it’s map design mostly, some of them just don’t accommodate killers who can’t get around the map quickly.
The only time I think “Wow gen rush”! is when I’m playing Clown or trapper or something and two gens pop before I can get across the map.
Just design better maps BHVR, make more of them like Hawkins or the new Badham versions. Rework Haddonfield next.
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In my opinion, I'd say like 75% of the reason why killer is stressful to play is generator speed. most of the survivors aren't that good at the chase and you can down them on reasonable amount of time if they're out of position. A lot of the players who aren't really that good at the chase just end up throwing every jungle gym or safe pallet on the map and by the time you end up breaking all these safe pallets, SWF has enough coordination to complete every generator before the survivor runs out of pallets. I mean some people have even done challenges of like "escape 50 times in a row", it's like that is some sort of an achievement or just statement of fact that generators go by so fast that you can win 50 times in a row. Escaping should be rare occurrence, like "wow, you triumph against a greater force" but instead it's like the norm. Against the better teams, you'll be lucky to kill even one or two of them with low-tier killer. It is for that reason that most player play viable killers as to just stand a chance against good survivors.
I think part of the reason why generator speed is even a thing is because killers don't get any rewards for hooking survivors. Until it's their 3rd hook, the game still moves at the same pace. They don't really get much for injures either if the survivor just ignore health state and uses pallets at safety nets to lethal hits. when that's the case, map presence files out the window.
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