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Unique changes to increase FUN [constructive criticism please]
I was once lucky enough to get to talk about game balance with a developer for one of my favorite games, Team Fortress 2. While the game would eventually fail due to a cosmetic/loot box spiral and ultimately wound up a shell of its former self, the original design concepts were brilliant and very inspirational for me. One of the major lessons that I learned from my developer friend was something that has shaped my opinions on game design/balance ever since, and it has helped me develop most of my ideas outlined below. The lesson is as follows:
“There is no ability or power in a game that cannot be balanced through tweaking the numbers behind it. The key is making the abilities FUN to play with and against”
If you think about it, and are creative enough, this turns out to always be true. Imagine killers were to have an ability that just instantly wins the game once activated. Depending on the numbers behind the ability of the ability it could be totally overpowered (one key press, bam! game over) to totally useless (start on cooldown, 60 minutes until active), somewhere in-between there is an area that is technically balanced and it’s just a matter of finding that number. Is it a FUN mechanic? Probably not, but figuring out what is FUN is what separates good from great game design. It is the core defining principal that should define what gets into the game, the rest is just numbers to tweak. With this mindset, here is a patch list I have come up with. I tried to specify numbers where possible but if I write ## that signifies that i'm not sure where this number should be, and will need some research to find the right one, but the mechanic is sound.
I want to inject more FUN into the game by addressing the following issues:
- Rework perks that feel compulsory
- Lower player frustration/stress levels
- Increase player rewards & positive feedback
With all that being said, here we go, my dream patch list.
Map/Game changes
- Based on the highest ranked survivor, the survivors will get the following effects(low rank survivors are often just torn apart by equally low rank killers, i think a small boost to help a struggling newbie survivor team is needed)
- Rank 20-15: easier good and great skill check success zones, left behind perk effects added to base kit, camaraderie perk effects added to base kit. (to stop low tier camping, and to incentivise staying till the end of a match)
- Rank 14-10: easier good skill check success zones.
- Rank 9-5: no buff
- Rank 4-1: moris and keys are disabled (these overpowered tools are fun to joke around with, but they do not belong in serious matches
- Before a match starts a survivor will be locked out of switching their loadout 10 seconds before a match starts. The killer has this additional time to change their gear. The tools the survivor is bringing will be shown in plain text to the killer. (the stupid strategy of swapping your gear immediately before the game starts defeats the purpose of letting the killer see you in the first place, and it wastes everyone's time as you are waiting to swap and everyone else is readied up)
- Before match starts the killer can veto 2 maps. His veto is shown at the same time as the offerings. (Survivors can choose a map offering and only give up 25% of their total offerings. The killer can give up 100% of his offerings to choose the map, but even this is wasted if any of the 4 survivors brought their own map offering. Give the killer some choice where he wants to hunt)
- Exit Gates should slowly lose progression to prevent 99%ing them. (This strategy is just silly and shouldn’t work this way. The collapse is meant to “pressure all lingering Survivors to escape during a specific time frame” but in practice the survivors have too much control over when the collapse starts. So now instead of survivors safely lingering near the exit doorway, you have survivors safely lingering near the door switch until they are ready to leave)
- Add more open space/dead zones around the edges of the map. Perhaps this could offer some strategy for survivors. The dead zones won’t have jungle gyms and pallets to block a killer, just trees and grass and places to hide. So it’s a risky move to hang out there, but there is less chance of the killer seeing you, and odds are they won’t have time to do a detailed search of the entire open area. This will provide stealth as a more reasonable option to some survivors.
Totem rework
- Hex and Dull totems now have a check to ensure there is no line of sight between them and any generator.
- Hex and Dull totems now have a check that places them far enough away from any generator that the hex totem ambient sounds are not audible from the location of any generator.
- Totems are only revealed upon first generator completion and hex totems are revealed upon second generator completion (all totems are revealed after the first generator, but the correct hex-linked totem is only lit and revealed upon second generator’s completion. The hex totem can be cleansed after the first generator but the survivor wont know if its a dull or hex totem until the second generator)
- Killer can only bring one totem perk per game(I think it might be too strong to have multiple hex totems hidden until the first generator is active)
General Killer Changes
- All Killers now receive inherit the bonus blood points of BBQ & chili automatically as an incentive to share the love around.
- Hemorrhage and deep wound de-buffs are merged. Everything that gave either of these effects now gives both.
- Blind effects (meaning the status effect on a survivor, not referring to the flashlight blind) last for a minimum of the stated amount of time on the perk/ability, and then need to be cleansed in a “snap out of it” style action.
- Pre-game hints will not reveal which killer is being played
- All blood point gains through perks/add-ons are now added post trial. (This current system doesn’t work for anyone. imagine a killer who has an easy time maxing out hunter points, he gains no extra blood points from running thrill of the hunt, as the 10% bonus bloodpoints aren’t awarded post-trial. He will get the same 8000BPs as usual. But a killer that has a hard time earning hunter bloodpoints barely benefits from the thrill of the hunt’s 10% bonus points because the base amount earned is too small)
- Killers now have a weight stat, this controls how loud their footsteps are and how effective body blocking is. (nurse or legion is very light and can easily be body blocked, while demogorgon should weigh a ton and simply push aside any survivor) (this is probably going to be a controversial change, as body blocking does take skill, but it is a massive source of frustration to a killer and there really isn’t a reasonable option to counter the survivors doing it. It also doesn’t work with the tone of the game as the survivors should not be able to bully a killer in this way)
Specific Killer Changes
Trapper
- Trapper’s base kit now starts with 2 traps and can hold 2 traps.
- If a survivor frees themselves (no help from another survivor) from a trap they will be put into the dying state with an effect similar to inner strength where after 8 seconds they are raised a health state.
- Trapper mori now involves slamming the survivor’s head into a bear trap if one is available in inventory
Wraith
- Move green windstorm add-on into the wraith’s basic kit and remove/rework existing addon to fit.
- Full invisibility from standing still lingers for # seconds
- New mori, maybe wraith goes invisible and eviscerates the survivor holding them above himself. Their blood washes over the wraith and reveals his blood soaked silhouette
Hillbilly
- Remove the wild sensitivity spike to his chainsaw on sprint activation
- Additional ##% fov on sprint to avoid perspective confusion that would not happen in reality
Nurse
- Nurse rework is too recent, can’t comment yet
Cannibal
- Berserker flail should be more erratic, wild, and difficult to control.(this is the one time the game should make visually tracking the survivor when close to them nearly impossible)
- Gets a ##% bonus to speed for each time you miss a chainsaw during a chase. Speed boost resets on successful chainsaw/mallet hit (this should incentivize more risky chainsaw plays with more chances to bump into objects, thematically fitting the cannibal)
- New Mori – Decapitation?
The Nightmare
- Rework is too recent, can’t comment yet
The Shape
- Survivors will very slowly regain evil (ideally so that totally draining a survivor of evil will not prevent you from getting the last 1% of evil needed to trigger evil within 3. Not intended to have a massive effect on total evil attainable in a single game)
The Hag
- Remove limit on teleport distance
- Traps are disabled while the hag is carrying a survivor. (this will stop a survivor from just triggering every trap on the map when the hag is moving to a hook)
The Doctor
***total rework*** (the doctor is not in a good place right now. He is not great at killing survivors, he is not fun to play as or against, and while threatening to new players; his madness system can be easily countered by good survivors who know his abilities. This rework aims to make tier 3 madness instill a panic in the survivor, and while the survivor gains a massive speed boost, they are also haunted by stronger versions of the doctor’s madness de-buffs and cannot effectively make use of obstacles. Making distance between you and him while not falling for any hallucinations will be key to survival. Knowing when to pursue a survivor inflicted with madness is the key to victory as the doctor)
- The nearest generator inside the doctor’s terror radius is electrified. Touching an electrified generator causes an explosion.
- Using carter’s spark on an object (pallet, exit gate switch, trap door) will cause the survivor to scream and recoil away from it (like a generator explosion) before being able to use an action.
- The doctor’s madness effects are now only witnessed by the effected survivor and the doctor and cannot be seen by other survivors.
- Being struck by the doctor increases madness by one level.
Madness changes
- Madness system keeps the scream on entry to each madness tier. Later madness tiers include debuffs from all previous madness tiers
- Madness now constantly ticks down to zero after being out of the doctor’s terror radius
- Madness tier 1: survivors scream when looking directly at the doctor. Doctor illusions are seen in the distant fog(fog offerings change this range)
- Madness tier 2: now invokes random screaming when moving. Doctor randomly becomes invisible and undetectable for 2 seconds while an illusion is left where he was standing. This illusion has his aura and terror radius. (the doctor cannot know when this effect is occurring to the victim)
- Madness 3 makes the survivor run 15% faster, but constantly scream and suffer from 3 of the effects randomly selected from the list below(the doctor does not know which effects are being granted, except when an equipped add-on guarantees one of the three debuffs)
Madness 3 effects
- Doctor hallucinations now appear closer and can be seen standing, walking toward and following affected survivor.
- Pallet hallucinations now include broken boards on the ground where unused pallets are.
- Pursuing red stain effect now bathes the entire area in red light. Doctor loses his red stain when chasing affected survivor.
- Exhaustion effect triggers for 10 seconds after every scream
- Doctor terror radius is inaudible for affected survivor.
- Music plays for the duration of madness 3, all other sounds are deafened(lets get something utterly bizarre for music here)
- Trees and small objects are hallucinations(effect persists until hallucination approached or madness tier 3 lost)
- Buildings and large objects are rotated(effect persists until hallucination approached or madness tier 3 lost)
- Hallucinated windows/vault points (effect persists until hallucination approached or madness tier 3 lost)
- Skillchecks are placed randomly on screen, time between the skillcheck warning sound and the actual skillcheck becomes randomized
The Legion
- Widen FOV for legion when in Feral Frenzy and vaulting pallets and windows. (Hiding directly below the legion as he vault a pallet should not be a viable strategy as it looks and feels dumb)
- Missing with feral frenzy now doesn’t end feral frenzy. Instead, stabbing takes up 25% of remaining power and lunging to stab takes up an additional 25% of power. If the stab is successful power is fully restocked as usual.
- Rework killer instinct to show directional markers to blips not on screen(similar to the damage markers from an FPS) and make killer instinct heartbeat speed proportional to distance to the survivor.
The Plaque
- A survivor's vomit now leaves a bright green/yellow trail similar to blood but a continuous line following the survivor’s path
- A fully charged spit is much wider and meant for spraying down an area.
- Corrupted spit now causes infection on survivors and objects
- Corrupted spit will not cause an injury but instead will slow down the survivor and cause them to continuously vomit for ## seconds
- Each survivor will puke ## times and then be put into the dying state if they do not drink from a fountain.
- Each corrupted fountain on the map slows down the charge time for vile plague. At 4 corrupted fountains the charge time slows to zero
The Spirit
- When coming out of spirit form, if you swing and miss during the speed boost you will get an exhaustion phase(similar to nurse)
- The spirit can no longer hear the survivor’s grunts of pain or breathing when using her ability, only footsteps, grass, and rushed actions.
- The survivor’s no longer get warning sound when the spirit uses her power outside of her terror radius(this was a buff that only helped SWF groups, and it made those in comms able to say exactly when the spirit used her ability, ruining any chance of tricking the survivor)
The Demogorgon
- Killer is too recent, can’t comment yet
The Clown
- A direct hit with the bottle cases slow pallet and window vaults for the intoxication duration
- Bottle count with the addon that give survivor’s the exposed effect are forced to be 3
The Pig
*partial rework* (the survivors having to work together to stop this deadly machine works so much better with the saw aesthetic. Plus, a countdown to death instead of a count up to freedom just feels right here)
- All survivors start with a trap on their head, exit gates start open. When entering an exit gate zone the helmet begins to violently beep and shake(to show new players that this is not something they should be doing)
- Generators are replaced with jigsaw boxes(aesthetic change only, all rules regarding generators apply to jigsaw boxes. Maybe we can add a cool animation of the pig screwing with the inner workings of the jigsaw box instead of the standard “break object” animation)
- The traps are active from the moment the game starts, they are not disabled when dying, hooked or during a chase. The killer cannot see the exact trap timer, but can get a general estimate based on the beeping of everyone’s trap
- Each generator completed adds ## minutes to every survivor’s trap timer. The final generator allows all survivors to fling off their traps.
- New mori: if the traps have not been removed yet then she tinker’s with the survivor’s trap and sets it off prematurely
The Huntress
- Insta-down red hatchet add-on forces hatchet count to be one
- When out of hatchets move speed becomes 115%
The Ghostface
- If a survivor is looking at the ghostface or in a chase stalking progress is slowed by 100%
- Stalking progress is no longer lost on hit
Killer Perk Changes (all at tier 3)
- BBQ and Chili – bloodpoint component removed, aura now lasts for 8 seconds. Otherwise unchanged.
- Beast of Prey – You lose your red stain when in a chase.
- Bloodhound – blood trails glow red and last for 5 seconds longer, when the survivor is running the spatter is more of a streak, showing direction.
- Blood warden – the entity’s barbs that materialize to block the killer from exiting through the gate also block survivors. Auras of survivors within the gate are revealed to killer and vise versa.
- Coulrophobia - survivors in your terror radius cannot heal or use medkits.
- Cruel limits – pallets and windows within 24 meters of a finished generator are blocked for survivors permanently.
- Dark Devotion – Obsession now emits terror radius for 60 seconds. The Obsession hears no terror radius. Otherwise unchanged.
- Furtive Chase – Each token now decreases your terror radius by 3 meters regardless of chase status. Otherwise unchanged.
- Hangman’s Trick – Hooks are replaced by nooses, which don’t break after use and take longer to unhook a survivor.
- NOED – speed boost removed. Otherwise unchanged.
- Thrill of the hunt – No longer a totem. Otherwise unchanged.
- Insidious – having no survivor in your terror radius(or lullaby radius) makes you undetectable. This effect lingers for 5 seconds. Killer is not told when this effect is active.
- Iron grasp – Struggle movement effects nullified, struggle timer increased by 20%
- Iron Maiden – Exposed effect lasts for 30 seconds. Otherwise unchanged.
- Knock Out - Hides hook location bubble from survivors. Otherwise unchanged.
- Light born – looking into the killers red stain from close range as a survivor blinds you.(like a flashlight)
- Mad Grit – 10% movement speed when carrying survivor, wiggle timer pause for 4 seconds on hit
- Mind breaker – All survivors are exhausted until 2 generators are complete
- Monstrous Shrine – Applies to all hooks. Faster entity progression only when out of killer terror radius. Otherwise unchanged.
- Overcharge – Final level of overcharge now has an impossible skill check. Otherwise unchanged.
- Overwhelming Presence – Items slowly degrade by themselves when in terror radius.
- Predator – Scratch marks appear as normal but now tighten together as they fade, at 90% transparency they are almost completely a line showing the exact path.
- Remember Me - exit gates now must be opened in one action or progress falls to zero instantly once the handle is let go. A third false exit gate is spawned, only once open can the survivor's see that this exit is blocked by debris/rubble. Killer is not told which exit is the false one.
- Shadowborn – FOV is increased to 20%, slightly easier to see in dark places
- Sloppy Butcher – No longer causes hemorrhage, instead causes mangled and an increase to the survivor’s grunts of pain.
- Surge – Closest 2 generators explode regardless of distance. (completed generators are counted but do nothing)
- Territorial imperative – Auras are revealed to you whenever the survivor is in the basement. Aura effect lingers for 10 seconds after leaving.
- Thanatophobia – now counts injured, dying, or dead survivors. Otherwise unchanged.
- Unnerving presence – skill checks when in terror radius do not have “great” zones anymore and their success zones are 60% smaller. 20% chance of triggering additional skill checks. Debuff icon hidden when no skill check is active.
- Unrelenting – Auto-aim disabled. 20% faster swing speed(regardless of hit or miss)
General Survivor Changes
- Survivor’s now each get a small built-in perk unique to them that complements their character and allows them to stand out. A couple of examples could be:
- Ace: better luck
- Claudette: in addition to being hard to see already, slightly quieter breathing when crouching and not moving after ## seconds
- Dwight: small bonus to other survivor’s repair speed
- Tapp: Knows the which killer he is up against and that killers starting position
- Each survivor also has a weight stat that controls their footsteps and bodyblock strength, as well as a general “noise” stat that should list generally how loud this survivor is.
- Each player on the survivor team must choose a unique survivor. (No more 4 man Claudette teams, this looked silly and is a dumb way to confuse the killer. Tracking the obsession and how many hooks each survivor has left is enough mental work without having to deal with the doppleganger squad)
- All blood point gains through perks and offerings/add-ons are now applied post game.
- All survivors get the “we’re going to make it” perk inherently to incentivize altruism.
- A regressing generator will have skill check trigger immediately. This skill check must be completed to stop regression. Missing this skill check or walking away from the generator will cause a loud noise but not cause any additional progress to be lost. (this is to stop a survivor from tapping a generator mid-chase)
Survivor Perk Changes
- Adrenaline – if being carried by the killer or on a hook when adrenaline triggers, the free health state is lost. Otherwise unchanged.
- Boil over – the killer’s ability to see hook auras reduced to 0 while carrying survivor.
- Borrowed time – Now activates when the killer is within 32 meters. Otherwise unchanged.
- Breakdown – also increases hook sabotage speed by 20%. Otherwise unchanged.
- Buckle Up – Picking up a downed survivor now grants you 5 seconds the killer’s aura and gives both you and them 5% increased move speed.
- Camaraderie – When on a hook for the first time, being in the killer’s terror radius stops hook progression.
- Decisive Strike – is disabled once the survivor becomes fully healthy. Otherwise unchanged.
- Distortion – tokens increased to six, killer is made aware of this perk when it triggers. Otherwise unchanged.
- Head on – If killer is swinging at locker while head on is activated, killer gets stunned and survivor is hit. Otherwise unchanged.
- No Mither – Start the trail healthy and no mither activates once you become injured. Survivor is broken but this is not revealed to killer. Otherwise unchanged.
- Open handed – charges left on your item are now linked to the survivor(a half used toolbox for you could be a new toolbox for a friend)
- Pharmacy – Emergency med kit now comes with 2 brown addons. Otherwise unchanged.
- Resilience – when you are injured but not broken, you receive a 15% bonus to action speeds.(vaulting included)
- Saboteur – increases hook sabotage speed by 30%
- Slippery Meat – if you have been hooked in the last 60 seconds, increase wiggle speed by 50% and increases time it takes for killer to place you on the hook. (flashlight saves are possible)
- Solidarity – When you are healed by another survivor, the next time you heal that survivor you get a 50% boost to your healing speed. This also works vise versa(you heal them, they are faster healing you)
- Stake Out – You now gain tokens 2 at a time. Max tokens increased to 8. Otherwise unchanged.
- Streetwise – Now grants 15% reduced consumption rates for all survivors as long as bearer is unhooked and alive.
- Up the Ante – gain 3% luck for each survivor alive
- Vigil – effect is now active for all survivors as long as bearer is unhooked and alive. Otherwise unchanged.
- Wake Up – exit gates open 25% faster. Exit gates have an aura that becomes brighter the closer it is to being completed.
- Were gonna live forever – increased survivor weight stat by 50%
Final comments, questions, cosmetics and oddities that didn’t fit anywhere else
- I didn’t go too in depth regarding the add-ons and the implications of every one of my changes on each add-on and item. That is a rabbit hole that I don’t have the time to venture down at this point. Hire me BHVR, and we’ll talk about that one ;)
- Do more things like the cannibal’s unlockable masks, that’s an amazing thing to find out about and little flavor additions make all the difference to players.
- Maybe masks or little details for the huntress based on the map being played?
- Make the clown’s finger key chain have the fingers of the last few survivors you mori’d
- The doctor could(should) get more and more manic as the overall madness of the survivors rises.
- Killers with a temper get more and more angry as generator’s complete.
- The blood stained cosmetics are cool, but wouldn’t it be much cooler to see the killer get more and more covered in blood as their victims mount? If you are the last survivor the killer should be drenched in blood! They were standing in front of the survivor as they were impaled on a hook after all. Maybe consider making blood spray/spatter an in-game effect instead of a cosmetic?
- Personally, I don’t care for the cosmetics hanging off the hooks and whatnot, but as long as it’s not obtrusive and fits the theme of the game I’m ok with it. If you want to sell me something that I’d actually look forward to, how about a personalized end game screen? (something like the victory screens in Injustice(2?))
- Maybe if I get a 4k as the clown we get to see one of the survivors tied up in his stagecoach as the clown tinkers with some new drug to feed them. Stick my cosmetics from the hook somewhere in the stagecoach too for extra customization.
- The plague could have a scene where we see the survivor coming down with the infection and becoming covered in the plague’s boils.
- Let’s see bubba’s kitchen here, the ghostface’s hideout, the doctor’s lab, the possibilities are endless.
- If the survivors win maybe add a little celebratory cut scene of them weary but happy to have escaped into the fog. Maybe players can have custom emotes that would trigger here. (a high five, an exasperated laugh, nothing garish and out of place please!)
- I’m probably the minority here, but I prefer original non-licensed killers.
- I’m probably the minority here, but I would like to see some more non-humanoid killers(fingers crossed for massive spider boss that can stick to ceilings and catch survivors in webs, dragging them up like a half-life barnacle)(let a man dream)
Well, I think that’s about it. If you have any constructive criticism I would love to hear it. Thanks for reading this far and if you liked any/all of my ideas, please, share it around. I don’t want any credit or recognition; I just want my favorite game to be the best it can be and if any of my ideas would help inspire a change in the right direction then I would be ecstatic.
Thank you friends, and see you in the fog.
Comments
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🥵
I'm dead
3 -
You basically just made stalking with ghostface completely and utterly useless just fyi half of these changes are terrible btw.
2 -
I'm looking for constructive criticism so i'm not sure you even deserve a reply but do you really think it should count as "stalking" when you are actively chasing the survivor with a knife? Otz recently did a couple videos outlining the different playstyles of ghostface and I think you should check it out. Maybe the way you play the killer isnt the only one.
0 -
Wow really impressed by the thought and creativity that went into this. Thanks it was a really interesting read, though I doubt the devs will care. It sounds more like a expansion or sequel plan than a patch as the work that would have to go in to it would be huge. Hopefully even if the devs don't implement any of your ideas they'll maybe be a bit more ambitious with the future of this game.
3 -
Not really, you can stalk when sneaking up on someone just like normal. If they spot you then either you get broken out or you chase them, both mean you can't Stalk them and the bright side is you can hit them and down them and if they find them later you can finish the stalk. This means you can go the entire match without stalking them and then at the very end you can Expose them all and get instadowns.
This is all if you choose to play like that, I would play it like this as I don't Stalk very much unless I know I will get the down. This is a kind of catch 22 change as sure you can't Expose someone in a chase but you don't lose any progress until they Expose them, it's the exact opposite of healing to 99% and then finishing the heal in the Killer's face.
I'm not saying this is a good change I'm just explaining the benefits of the change.
2 -
I dont stalk with ghostface as i think its useless but this proposed change would make it completely useless people who stalk in chase rely on survivors who dont look behind them as is this change right here completely removes the ability rendering stalking which is already bad even worse.
Also before someone starts trying to tell me stalking is not that bad it takes way to much time to get one person downed now with Ghost Face caught on tape its slightly better but thats not the point stalking is terrible as is compared to using Ghost Faces power for stealth the point is Stalking is not consistent
Also i did watch Otz videos i still stand by my point i think Stealth is more consistent then stalking and yes its pure opinion but i think its a highly liked opinion I've played Ghost Face since his PTB and since his release and i still think stalking is awful but thats mostly because the reveal mechanic completely hinders it towards high rank as most survivors are smart enough to look around see you peek and waste a ton of your time while you try to expose them.
0 -
I like a lot of ideas on this list but of course don't like a lot of others. There are a whole bunch of things in here that would benefit the game, some really strong perk changes that make perfect sense without it being over powered BECAUSE they were purposefully made to have a hindrance on top of the strength which this takes away.
All that being said I don't like your idea of not running more than 1 totem, sure that choice is to go in line with your totem changes but no. You can't use Haunted Grounds to protect another totem as that strategy is null and void with your totem changes. You also completely get rid of Totem Roulette which is a strategy to force Survivors to find all 5 totems and not do Gens and Thrill of The Hunt makes that strong if you're playing a high mobility Killer.
Every Survivor having a built-in base perk is the right thing to do, Survivors are just skins and I respect that, everyone loves a certain Survivor but they aren't unique. I love Nea and she's my favorite but the build is all I am actually playing, the perks are what I am playing not Nea; and I can put those perks on anyone that in itself makes no Survivor special, not even your favorite. So this idea of yours is awesome.
They're tweaking Doctor right now so I don't know what they'll go with, yours is pretty ######### cool and I would love playing him because right now he's boring to play as and annoying to play against. There are a lot of changes here but I think those are the ones I wanted to address most of all.
Last thing though, your Pig buff looks too strong. If the timer goes down no matter what with nothing stopping it means the timer has be LONG, long to the point where it will never go off. Pig's strength comes from the traps prohibiting them from doing Gens or punishing them for it. Your change means all she can do is Ambush so you're making her weaker since her traps are useless and will lead to a mass slug fest to force Survivors heads to explode since the timer doesn't pause when Dying. If the traps are always on then nothing stops them from doing Gens and Gens extend the timer so the traps do absolutely nothing.
1 -
I like most of your ideas, but removing Billy's sensitivity gets rid of curving (which is a huge nerf to him) and disabling Hag's traps while carrying someone gets rid of an important part of her counterplay (a huge buff to her).
Also, not letting red ranked players use certain items will cause a good bit of them to de-rank. Newbie buffs are good, but veteran penalties are not.
2 -
The following list are the changes that i don't agree with and i'll do my best to give them tweaks/remove them with good arguments, according to my experience ofc. You seem to have very good ideas tho.
The changes that I will propose are counting with the other changes that you made.
Enough talking, let's start...
TOTEMS
Killer can only bring one totem perk per game(I think it might be too strong to have multiple hex totems hidden until the first generator is active)
Totems are only revealed upon first generator completion and hex totems are revealed upon second generator completion (all totems are revealed after the first generator, but the correct hex-linked totem is only lit and revealed upon second generator’s completion. The hex totem can be cleansed after the first generator but the survivor wont know if its a dull or hex totem until the second generator).
I think that Hex Totems should be time based and not generator based. So, no exact number, but around 1.5 and 2.5 minutes into the game, a dull totem becomes lit with a hex perk that you have at random. The perks still have the effect from the very beggining of the game, this is just to make the "30 seconds ruin explosion" not a thing anymore, also slows down the game more.
Furthermore, the killer can use any hex: perks as they want. If there are no dull totems on the map, then hex perks will have an animation so everyone knows that the hex perks in the game are no longer having an effect when the 1.5-2.5 minute mark is reached.
TRAPPER
If a survivor frees themselves (no help from another survivor) from a trap they will be put into the dying state with an effect similar to inner strength where after 8 seconds they are raised a health state.
Instead of putting them in the dying state, i would propose the deep wound state. Although i think that getting out of a trap shouldn't have a downside without add-ons but if there is a need of one, I suggest deep wounds. Dying state is VERY overkill. With deep wounds they waste time mending.
HILLBILLY
Remove the wild sensitivity spike to his chainsaw on sprint activation
I think that the wild sensitivity should stay because it is VERY VERY hard to control and even more to master. I only play hillbilly for dailies and I usually just chainsaw someone when i'm right next to them because I can't do the wild sensitivity turn. A lot of hillbillies skillcap is based around this mechanic, it feels like a unhealthy and unfun change to me.
HAG
Remove limit on teleport distance
This feels overkill because the other buff you propose is already a very big buff, even if it doesn't seem like it. I mained hag for a few months and what you do with her is basically a web with her traps and if survivors blow away 2-3 traps and you get no value from it you are in a very bad place. The other buff will make her much better.
SPIRIT
The spirit can no longer hear the survivor’s grunts of pain or breathing when using her ability, only footsteps, grass, and rushed actions.
The survivor’s no longer get warning sound when the spirit uses her power outside of her terror radius(this was a buff that only helped SWF groups, and it made those in comms able to say exactly when the spirit used her ability, ruining any chance of tricking the survivor)
These 2 changes seem horrible to me for both sides. Everyone complains about prayer beads bracelet because there is almost 0 counterplay to it, so making it base kit would make spirit VERY OP. Everyone already complains about it because it is very unfun to play against, so no.
For the other change, I want to say that removing the groaning detection from spirit will kill her. Even making her a 4.6 killer on par with the changes wouldn't make it for her to be close to as good as she is now.
I propose to make her have an animation while channeling the ability but making the channeling time shorter so she can catch survivors and sometimes be sneaky. An completely change prayer beads of course.
LEGION
Rework killer instinct to show directional markers to blips not on screen(similar to the damage markers from an FPS)
I don't like this part about killer instinct, but I like the other changes. Also, as a legion main with 600 hours on them i don't think this is the right way to fix them. They need much more to be fixed and be made a good killer, at least.
CLOWN
Bottle count with the addon that give survivor’s the exposed effect are forced to be 3
The way I read this, this is a nerf and clown needs everything but nerfs. I think that they should increase the bottles that he has by 1 and this add-on shouldn't change that fact and you can use add-ons that increase the bottle count on pair with it.
HUNTRESS
When out of hatchets move speed becomes 115%
Survivors should be rewarded by making the huntress miss the hatches and she should be punished when missing hatchets. This change takes down those parts and i don't think this is a healthy change.
Overcharge
Final level of overcharge now has an impossible skill check.
Everything should have counterplay in PvP online games and this doesn't seem like it. Counterplay has a giant impact on fun so i think this doesn't make it.
Perhaps make it half the space that it has as it is now, but not impossible.
Unnerving presence
Debuff icon hidden when no skill check is active.
Unnerving presence should always be showing. The other buffs are already really good and make the perk a must on a terror radius build.
Survivors
Adrenaline
If being carried by the killer or on a hook when adrenaline triggers, the free health state is lost. Otherwise unchanged.
I think that adrenaline should stay the way they are and receive no changes. It's a very good, very balanced perk imo.
Boil over
The killer’s ability to see hook auras reduced to 0 while carrying survivor.
I recently experienced of how frustrating this perk can be and not knowing where the hooks are. This is very overkill, no fun for the killer. It's vey OP having a wiggle free most of the time and reset chases. DS already is strong and very frustrating because of that and has a lot of restrictions, one of them being that it can only be used once per game. It's a no from me.
Borrowed time
Now activates when the killer is within 32 meters. Otherwise unchanged.
I think that this perk should have a risk against some killers. The objective of using borrowed time is to make a safe rescue, but should have some counter from some killers imo.
Distortion
Killer is made aware of this perk when it triggers.
The purpose of distortion is about not giving the killer information. This change seems counterintuitive.
No Mither
JUST A QOL CHANGE: Also remove the music while injured using this perk.
Everything else is fine i think, maybe a bit overkill not showing the broken status effect, but it's a matter of testing.
Were gonna live forever
increased survivor weight stat by 50%
Souldn't it be the opposite? Also, for this effect there is a very much better perk called lightweight that should have 25% OR 50% reduced running speed.
I don't really know how to change this perk to be honest.
I hope this helped. :)
Post edited by NullSp3c on1 -
So a read a lot of this and to that I have to say...
I would recommend starting a group to make your own game. No offense to BHVR, but I feel like their goal isn't about making the game fun or scary as much as it is about keeping people playing and getting money off cosmetics.
Your take on Doctor in particular sounds absolutely amazing! When I first got into DBD, I thought it was going to be more like a horror game: crazy stuff happening and general creepiness and being spooky but unfortunately the game got very competitive and never really had a scary vibe to begin with. Add on not feeling fearsome as a Killer to the point where survivors have a lot going for them and how survivors can't really interact or fight back and it unfortunately is a missed opportunity.
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You seriously needed to split this into a few different forum posts. WAY too much to comment on in just one.
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I suppose where we disagree is that i believe ghostface shouldn't be able to stalk someone while his presence is known, and you do. The change in keeping the stalk meter even after a hit is a pretty big buff as it allows you to save up stalking over multiple confrontations, but if thats not enough to counterbalance the loss of the chase-stalk then i would agree that GF needs something more.
I just really hate the current style of playing him right now, plus we already have a killer that stalks you in plain sight, so it would be nice to mix that up imo. Thanks for sharing your thoughts here. I appreciate it
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thanks for the kind words. Like I said if you or anyone wants to take this and send it to a friend, a streamer or even a dev. you have my permission to steal any of the ideas here and say its your own lol. Just help me get the word out. Cheers!
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I don't like your idea of not running more than 1 totem
fair enough, you bring up good points. There needs to be a fix for totems and its a difficult area to find a good solution.
Last thing though, your Pig buff looks too strong. If the timer goes down no matter what with nothing stopping it means the timer has be LONG
There has to be a good middle zone where the timer is generous enough to allow some mistakes but short enough that if a generator isnt done fast enough people heads start popping. If you think the pig is still too strong then maybe add in this one additional pig idea that I didn't bring it up in my post because it was too extreme. i thought a cool but large change for the pig would be to get rid of hooks for her all together and rely on the head pop mechanic entirely. Eliminate bleed out timers when wearing the trap and you have a game mode where the pig is just slowing you down to run the clock out as a mass slug fest helps the survivors more than the killer. Its just a matter of finding that goldilocks zone for the time. Obviously if everyone goes down its a game over instantly.
Thanks for the kind words, I appreciate you taking the time to get back to me, if and when I make a 2.0 list i will definitely take your thoughts into consideration.
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I like most of your ideas, but removing Billy's sensitivity gets rid of curving (which is a huge nerf to him)
Fair enough, I knew i would be lowering the skill ceiling with this change, but it just feels like such a forced gimmick to make him work in certain situations. Like in the hillbilly's world, why does he have this bizzare ability at this one moment in time. It just feels wrong imo
disabling Hag's traps while carrying someone gets rid of an important part of her counterplay (a huge buff to her).
Not wrong, I believe the hag needs a buff. If this is too strong then I would advocate for something else to bring her up.
Newbie buffs are good, but veteran penalties are not.
Normally I would 100% agree, but these moris/keys are so unfun to play against specifically because they just end the game prematurely in most situations. Sure, some people would derank just to keep them, but speaking for myself, I would gladly give up using a mori to guarantee I wont have to deal with a key and vise versa. They just waste everyone's time and personally I think vet players should be above using them anyway.
Thanks for the input and if you have any ideas for how to change/fix the hag or billy let me know. Im always interested in what people come up with.
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Thanks for the laughs, a quality shitpost indeed!
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Despite most of the changes being pretty crazy, the swing-and-miss fatigue on Spirit actually sounds like a great idea -- good spirits won't suffer from it, and bad spirits will have to get better.
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Thank you for your incredibly well thought out reply, I wanted constructive critisim and you came though swinging. Very well said on all points.
I think that Hex Totems should be time based and not generator based
I did consider this but I wondered if I would be shutting down possible survivor options by taking the ability to draw out totems away from them. Its tricky as I would bet 1.5-2 min would be wayy too long if we were to go this route. I regularly see the first 2 gens pop before the first chase is over. Hard to say forsure, ill have to think about this. All in all, i would be happy with either suggestion with some number fine tuning.
Instead of putting them(survivors that self-escape a bear trap) in the dying state, i would propose the deep wound state.
This could work, but remember I only want them in the dying state for a couple seconds. There is this extremely annoying event when someone gets trapped, they hit that 25% chance on the first try and run away, the bonus salt in the wound is that if they were already injured there is no penalty. Deep wounds is nice but i dont think its enough. Maybe a strong hindrance penalty instead of either?
I think that the (hillbilliy's)wild sensitivity should stay because it is VERY VERY hard to control and even more to master.
I knew i would be lowering the skill ceiling, I just hate how this feels so disconnected from what im doing. Like if there was a random rhythm mini-game to get the chainsaw revved it would technically increase the skill cap, but it would feel out of place. I dont know I just hate it as it is right now. you're probably right
This(limitless teleport hag) feels overkill because the other buff you propose is already a very big buff
I agree, it might be too much.
Everyone complains about prayer beads bracelet because there is almost 0 counterplay
My mistake, I don't think I was clear enough and this is a misunderstanding. The sound I want to remove is the sound the other players outside of the terror radius hear, not the wooshing sound the victim hears when the spirit is close. I agree the prayer beads need to be reworked.
For the other change, I want to say that removing the groaning detection from spirit will kill her.
I dont think this would kill her, you basically already have to put up with this when you chase a healthy survivor or a survivor with iron will.
The way I read this, this(bottle limit) is a nerf and clown needs everything but nerfs.
Sure, but that other buff I gave him was pretty extreme, probably too powerful. Just to be clear I am only proposing this bottle limitation when the addon that gives you the exposed effect on direct hit is used. If you havent tried it just take the exposed addon and the +2 bottles addon and its literally impossible to counter. This is terribly unfun for the survivors on par with the similar huntress addon.
Survivors should be rewarded by making the huntress miss the hatches and she should be punished when missing hatchets.
Fair enough, My thinking is that she is punished because she just becomes an m1 killer, but this might just make her too powerful.
Everything should have counterplay in PvP online games and this(impossible overcharge) doesn't seem like it.
I hear ya, but hitting the skillcheck isn't counterplay, its just a flat out negation of that perk. I think your idea could work, not sure, id have to think some more.
Unnerving presence should always be showing.
I don't want to hide the perk from survivors, its just that right now it acts as an advance warning for survivors that you are now in the terror radius. Maybe just keep the debuff visible in the hud regardless of terror radius?
I think that adrenaline should stay the way it is
Maybe, but this always seems to be a "rich-get-richer" mechanic that is very popular.
I recently experienced of how frustrating this(no hook auras) perk can be
Absolutely, I also fell victim to this once, but I thought it was a clever little trick that barely gets time to shine. All the killer would have to do is take note of the nearest hook before hand. Its just another option to end the overreliance on DS
The objective of using borrowed time is to make a safe rescue, but should have some counter from some killers imo.
Im all for adding counterplay, But a clever ghostface or wraith can end up just kicking a player when they are down, and making another player feel like they wasted a perk slot.
The purpose of distortion is about not giving the killer information. This change seems counterintuitive.
The killer is now getting a "you are getting no information" warning rather than just not seeing anything and wondering whats going on. Its still not helping him much since there is nothing he can do except suffer through it, but at least he will know why his perks aren't working
Shouldn't it(the weight change of WGLF) be the opposite?
No, I intended for this to be a perk for people who intend to block hooks and to give them a significant bonus to stopping the killer in their tracks. I will admit this it is lacking and probably wouldn't see any play as is.
Also, for this effect there is a very much better perk called lightweight that should have 25% OR 50% reduced running speed.
that does make perfect sense
Thank you so much for the well spoken points you've made here. You're a saint for taking so much of your time to discuss my little list. Best!
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Haha thank you, you are too kind.
No offense to BHVR, but I feel like their goal isn't about making the game fun or scary as much as it is about keeping people playing and getting money off cosmetics
I usually take a more optimistic view toward game developers, as if their goal was to get rich there are far easier ways to do so. But even if you are totally correct, I wish more developers would just realize that making their game more fun would lead to selling more cosmetics.
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So much to read. I'll get to it all but I've read up to the Totem ideas and have to just point out that none of these are really... "fun" or make things more "fun". These are just huge, HUGE buffs to Ruin. Is Ruin fun? I would say no but maybe you think it is?
While most Killers already run Ruin, many don't because they make use of other perks but these changes would make Ruin the defacto best Perk in the entire game since it slows down at least 1 gen every game, and probably 2, and being restricted to only one Hex Totem perk would further push people away from experimenting with other Totem perks.
Really, with these suggested changes, you can come to the conclusion that:
1) The Killer has Ruin
But if they don't
2) The Killer has NOED
There would be no reason to run any other Totem perk and even here NOED would be used way, way less than Ruin because it isn't active till late game, after totems are revealed.
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Question regarding Pig mechanic changes, since me likey playing the Pig: How would you account for balancing things between Pig players who maximize a gen slow-down build and those who don't?
Also, I still believe that it is way too late in the game's life span to make Survivors mechanically unique from one another. A number of people have put effort into one single Survivor, and finding out that their Survivor of choice now has an ability they don't care is going to upset some of those people. Something like this should have been implemented in the start.
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No problem for giving feedback. You were also dedicated to this list and you have a really good general idea about this game that i feel that is worth commenting. And very good ideas to change the game, in general.
I think that Hex Totems should be time based and not generator based
I did consider this but I wondered if I would be shutting down possible survivor options by taking the ability to draw out totems away from them. Its tricky as I would bet 1.5-2 min would be wayy too long if we were to go this route. I regularly see the first 2 gens pop before the first chase is over. Hard to say forsure, ill have to think about this. All in all, i would be happy with either suggestion with some number fine tuning.
In my personal experience, survivors destroy the totem in the first 2 minutes of the game, I only play at red ranks (not that I want to play at red ranks, but this community punishes too much the people who play for fun only and don't want to think about the game) and people are smart so they can find the totem really easy and fast. But I think that this is a matter of testing the time.
Instead of putting them(survivors that self-escape a bear trap) in the dying state, i would propose the deep wound state.
This could work, but remember I only want them in the dying state for a couple seconds. There is this extremely annoying event when someone gets trapped, they hit that 25% chance on the first try and run away, the bonus salt in the wound is that if they were already injured there is no penalty. Deep wounds is nice but i dont think its enough. Maybe a strong hindrance penalty instead of either?
It can be so that if the survivor is already injured, it makes them hindered for 60 seconds.
I think that the (hillbilliy's)wild sensitivity should stay because it is VERY VERY hard to control and even more to master.
I knew i would be lowering the skill ceiling, I just hate how this feels so disconnected from what im doing. Like if there was a random rhythm mini-game to get the chainsaw revved it would technically increase the skill cap, but it would feel out of place. I dont know I just hate it as it is right now. you're probably right
Imo, the most balanced killer in the game is hillbilly. Is fun for both sides and has a cycle of counterplay between the survivor and the killer. I wouldn't touch him even by a little.
Everyone complains about prayer beads bracelet because there is almost 0 counterplay
My mistake, I don't think I was clear enough and this is a misunderstanding. The sound I want to remove is the sound the other players outside of the terror radius hear, not the wooshing sound the victim hears when the spirit is close. I agree the prayer beads need to be reworked.
I don't know if we are talking about the same thing, but the wooshing that i think you mentioned you only hear it when the spirit starts using the phasing; you are outside of the husk's terror radius, the one that she leaves behind and she is close to you while invisible. Prayer beads removes this completely, that is what i think you propose.
For the other change, I want to say that removing the groaning detection from spirit will kill her.
I dont think this would kill her, you basically already have to put up with this when you chase a healthy survivor or a survivor with iron will.
Iron will is a complete counter to spirit that shouldn't be a thing and all spirit players hate (making it unfun). A healthy survivor sometimes doesn't know where the spirit comes from due to her small terror radius, granting a free hit. People while healthy have a tendency to be A LOT less careful than while injured.
You need to have a counterplay to survivors, this completely removes it because survivors can remove their scratch marks, no blood pools shown and no groaning with what you propose. What you mentioned that is left for her doesn't make her viable at all imo.
The way I read this, this(bottle limit) is a nerf and clown needs everything but nerfs.
Sure, but that other buff I gave him was pretty extreme, probably too powerful. Just to be clear I am only proposing this bottle limitation when the addon that gives you the exposed effect on direct hit is used. If you havent tried it just take the exposed addon and the +2 bottles addon and its literally impossible to counter. This is terribly unfun for the survivors on par with the similar huntress addon.
I suggest to put that number up from 3 to 4, after all, it is a pink add-on and you must make up for it.
Survivors should be rewarded by making the huntress miss the hatches and she should be punished when missing hatchets.
Fair enough, My thinking is that she is punished because she just becomes an m1 killer, but this might just make her too powerful.
She has 5 chances to hit a hatchet at minimum. Also, that change removes the purpose of reloading hatchets.
Everything should have counterplay in PvP online games and this(impossible overcharge) doesn't seem like it.
I hear ya, but hitting the skillcheck isn't counterplay, its just a flat out negation of that perk. I think your idea could work, not sure, id have to think some more.
I, personally, am horrible at "tremendously difficult" skillchecks. Making it half the space would make the per usable at least 5 to 6 times per match, depending on how much you kick gens. That results in a total 50%-60% gen reduction, if not more. Impossible skillchecks doctor smiling xD
Unnerving presence should always be showing.
I don't want to hide the perk from survivors, its just that right now it acts as an advance warning for survivors that you are now in the terror radius. Maybe just keep the debuff visible in the hud regardless of terror radius?
Now that i rethink about it, doesn't seem bad the change that you propose.
I recently experienced of how frustrating this(no hook auras) perk can be
Absolutely, I also fell victim to this once, but I thought it was a clever little trick that barely gets time to shine. All the killer would have to do is take note of the nearest hook before hand. Its just another option to end the overreliance on DS
I know what your intention is, but it doesn't feel like this is the best way to procceed. Making a perk less meta because there is another one even better in 80% of the cases.
The objective of using borrowed time is to make a safe rescue, but should have some counter from some killers imo.
Im all for adding counterplay, But a clever ghostface or wraith can end up just kicking a player when they are down, and making another player feel like they wasted a perk slot.
I am a defendor of the idea that every perk should have a counter or a bad situation. If you unhook someone close to a no terror radius killer it is your fault to do that move.
The purpose of distortion is about not giving the killer information. This change seems counterintuitive.
The killer is now getting a "you are getting no information" warning rather than just not seeing anything and wondering whats going on. Its still not helping him much since there is nothing he can do except suffer through it, but at least he will know why his perks aren't working
It still ruins the purpose. The purpose of this perk is entirely to deceive the killer making wrong decisions, by going "undercover". It's not what being stealthy means. The tokens buff that you propose is gucci to make this perk good/playable.
Shouldn't it(the weight change of WGLF) be the opposite?
No, I intended for this to be a perk for people who intend to block hooks and to give them a significant bonus to stopping the killer in their tracks. I will admit this it is lacking and probably wouldn't see any play as is.
I know what kind of playstyle that you are pushing with this, but you need to give something to partially compensate for this debuff. Its almost like no mither. Either way, how would you make the tier 1 and 2 of this perk? More noise or less noise?
All the other changes are REALLY good, but some of these make it off-road. You have some knowledge about how devs change things so you have capacity to change things the right way.
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Its like a 50/50, some changes are horrible some are good.
Good changes:
-low rank buffs: I have a friend that has problems to play low ranks.
-totem changes: Love that change, that avoides the insat cleanse of ruin or devour.
-Trapper, Myers, Hag, Pig, Huntress and ghostface: Trapper change is simple but nice, myers is actually fine but that change woudlnt make him op but he needs some more addon changes thought, Pig its a nice idea but you could exploit so many easy things, like just slugging all the time and you would have a easy game with that, the huntress change is nice, that would give her some more map pressure and ghostface change is very well designed probs!
-Head on, D strike, No mither
-Tanathobhobia, Surge, BBQ, Cruel limits
But some changes are brainless and completly bad. Idk if that is because of some lack of knowledge (you cant know everything in the game.
-Billy has no longer higher sensitivity at chainsaw activation, dafuq? That means you cant curve and fladder anymore, that would take ALOT of skill cap ans streangh to this killer.
-Doc would be the worst killer if you give survivor 15% more movementspeed in t3, it would punish you for trying to kill survivors or bringing them to t3. Idk if i missunderstood but where is his shock? So I assume the doc will have no chase ability at all and that sucks, he would become the new legion.
-Spirit without hearing survivors would be so damn bad, because if the survivor is not running you almost hear nothing of them and that would take out the reason to heal against a spirit, because she cant hear you anyway. Getting a stun after a miss? She is a 110% killer, she will have anyway a hard time catching you and prayer beads as baseline is really naive and dumb. This addon is one of the biggest reason why spirit is so hated. No counterplay and 0 effort for grabbing ppl off gens.
-Dark devotion would be to op if you have 60seconds no terror radius, and if the obsession hears no terror radius that would take alot of chase potention against him. This perk is actually fine how it is right now, it is just really underrated and unpopular.
-Noed awards killers for playing bad and you need no effort at all to gain that powerufll effect, there should be a activation requierment to gain it, same goes to adrenaline.
-Thrill of the hunt has no couterplay to it, and it is anyway a pain in the ass to play against this perk.
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Interesting Pig idea, I think if Survivors got an automatic Unbreakable when they face Pig this would be really cool. Even if Pig slugs everyone someone else can pick themselves up, they can still pick each other up, the problem of course would be the timer, too small everyone dies, too big no one dies lol
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Is Ruin fun? I would say no but maybe you think it is?
I know how you feel, but for many killers it feels like you almost have to run ruin to stand a chance, and then having it cleansed immediately is soul crushing. My change aims to make all totems give the killer at least some value. The reason Ruin and NOED are the only hex totems you see now is because all hex totems are inherently broken. But only these two totems offer some value no matter what.
Ruin slows down the game even if it is cleansed in the first 30 seconds, and noed either wastes the survivor's time by forcing many totem cleanses, or face a buffed killer. These totems do a job regardless of the broken totem system, THAT is why they are popular. Devour hope is the most powerful totem on paper, but in reality you rarely see it because it is just unrealistic and totally luck based to have any totem stand that long. The goal of my change is to make a totem give some value to the killer every game. Widening the range of viable totem options. And since you only have one totem option, you are all-in on your choice.
So to answer your question, no, i dont think ruin is fun. Its not fun to play against it game after game, and its not fun to feel forced to use it. The best way to fix this is to elevate more totems to the point where there are viable other choices.
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How would you account for balancing things between Pig players who maximize a gen slow-down build and those who don't?
Great question. A gen slowdown build would be pretty damn effective, I would imagine that a build more aimed towards chasing/downing survivors might need a small buff in the form of some tracking cue's, maybe louder generator working sounds to help the Pig disrupt repairs. Not sure, as the pig player what would you like to see?
I still believe that it is way too late in the game's life span to make Survivors mechanically unique from one another.
I considered that being the case, but since I also propose a change that makes each player select a unique survivor I think there would be less of a need to play only one survivor.
But on the other hand if BHVR thinks it is too late and instead puts these ideas into dead by daylight 2 then i wont have my feelings hurt either ;) Im just giving free advice
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again, really great feedback thank you. You make great points and there is only a couple issues where I can say I disagree.
(on borrowed time) If you unhook someone close to a no terror radius killer it is your fault to do that move.
You are right, but in the context of the game I believe its is too abusible. In a perfect world I would go with your method all the way, but considering the amount of toxic players and people willing to facecamp, I just feel that survivors need this perk to work every time. I will say though, that it is incredibly annoying to have a BT survivor block you or worse, unhook someone in your face while they are "sheilded" by BT. I wish there was a fix for all these issues but I cant think of anything that could work.
(on distortion)It still ruins the purpose. The purpose of this perk is entirely to deceive the killer making wrong decisions, by going "undercover". It's not what being stealthy means. The tokens buff that you propose is gucci to make this perk good/playable.
Its a weird balance, because I knew it needed more tokens, but for most killer builds 8 tokens means that you will never see that player's aura. The power swing from useless to OP is dramatic and im not sure the solution lies in the number of tokens. I dont know, ill think about this some more.
All in all, great points. I will definitely be making a 2.0 at some point and you've given me a lot to think about. Thanks again!
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For borrowed time, i think you're right but maybe reduce the radius. If they are camping that hard, they need to be close, like 16 meters or something close to it because it can also be exploited by survivors. I'm a killer main and I hate campers and i never camp unless toxic SWF against my poor legion (that can only walk on the mud and break their back when vaulting) xD
For distortion, i think that you should give it a way to gain tokens. I mean, the perk is to push deceiving play so it can be something like stake, giving it a risk to gain tokens. It also seems to kinda counter the purpose, but it feels right at the same time because it is giving it a risk that doesn't interfere with it's job of deceiving the killer.
EDIT: About borrowed time - Facecamping/Camping is a game design flaw and no perks should be a bandaid to fix a flaw.
No problem, I liked to help.
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For Hillbilly, I think the main reason it feels weird is the sudden change from extreme sensitivity to 1 DPI. If that became a smoother change, it would feel much better and less like a bug. To make it smoother without changing how he plays too much, start linearly reducing sensitivity .25 seconds before it currently switches the sensitivity, and stop reducing the sensitivity .25 seconds after it currently switches sensitivity. This would create a .5 second change period that should end him up in the same spot. However, I don't think that this change is really necessary in the first place, and changing it to be smoother in any way would end up nerfing his curving capabilities slightly.
For Hag, making her able to teleport to any triggered trap regardless of distance would be fine if you want to give her a buff. It'll make her less map dependent and let her play more aggressively, and I think that's healthy for her. Plus, there's also the downside of the Hag teleporting to a poorly placed trap far away from everything and having to waste her time running back to where she should be.
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some changes are brainless and
completlycompletely bad. Idk if that is because of some lack of knowledgeOk ouch, as a general point before I talk balance, there is no need to get nasty. I always assume that if something doesn't make any sense to me, that the other person must know something I don't, or that I have misunderstood. Either way I try to see what they were going for. Being nasty makes people less likely to reply, and when they do reply they might do something childish like point out all your spelling mistakes.
Billy has no longer higher sensitivity at chainsaw activation. That means you cant curve and
fladder(not a real word) anymoreAs I have covered in previous comments, I understand that this is going to lower the skill ceiling for billy and I think it is bad enough that it is worth removing anyway. Perhaps the best thing would be to buff billy in some other way, or to make this bizzare sensitivity change a toggle in the options. Mouse acceleration never felt right to me either but I know some people game with that turned on somehow, it feels the same.
Doc would be the worst killer if you give survivor 15% more movementspeed in t3, it would punish you for trying to kill survivors or bringing them to t3 Idk if i misunderstood
missunderstoodbut where is his shock?First of all, like I said in my opener, the numbers are all variable. The concept is really what I am pitching here. The tone of a survivor screaming and running away at top speed really fits with the game. Second of all the doctor would compensate for this speedboost by putting crippling side effects of the victim. If the speed is too great a hurdle then crank up the side effects. There is a goldilocks zone here and that is what I am gunning for.
(on spirit) if the survivor is not running you almost hear nothing of them and that would take out the reason to heal against a spirit
Cant say I agree, this is exactly how the game works when a survivor is healthy so it obviously is possible to catch them, as for why they need to heal that should be obvious.
prayer beads as baseline is really naive and dumb. This addon is one of the biggest
reasonreasons why spirit is so hated.I never advocated for prayer beads as a baseline so this is not accurate, although I will grant you that you're not the first to misunderstand this point so it was probably poorly worded on my part.
if the obsession hears no terror radius that would take
alota lot of (the) chasepotentionpotentialagainst(away from) him. This perk is actually fine how it is right now, it is just really underrated and unpopular.I agree that it is underrated on some killers. But the whole idea of this perk doesn't really work for me. You slap your obsession, and now you have to leave that chase, and sneak up on someone new. If they are on comms it completely falls apart too.
Noed
awardsrewards killers for playing bad and you need no effort at all to gain thatpowerufllpowerful effect(.) there should be a activationrequiermentrequirement to gain it, same goes to adrenaline.The only thing I did to noed was nerf it, I partially agree that it is too powerful at the moment.
Thrill of the hunt has no
couterplaycounterplay to it, and it isanywaya pain in the ass to play against this perk.Not 100% sure but I believe you are mistaking this perk for Huntress's lullaby? I can't imagine anyone would describe thrill of the hunt as a pain in the ass.
Thanks for the feedback and don't take the spelling mistake thing too seriously, just having a bit of fun. Cheers
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That's it exactly. The starting time is everything, get that right and this might be a workable game mode.
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I am fine with the spellin correction, I appreciate that. But honestly I didnt put that much effort into the spelling so sorry about that. Dont take my "rude" words to serious, I dont want to offend anyone in any way, I just write like this because I am used to it and sometimes forget about that to not answer like this to random ppl in the internet.
About the Thrill change:
"Thrill of the hunt – No longer a totem. Otherwise unchanged."
If a killer uses a Thrill perk build with haunted grounds etc, the most common one is on spirit, it is already hard enough to destroy the thrill because of devour hope you are forced to destroy the totem at some point of the game, if Thrill would not be a totem then you wouldnt have any way to get rid of this perk and the killer would have a unlimited potential of snowballing around of the survivors trying to cleanse. How I said, with devour you are forced to destroy Hex totems otherwise you will die from it soon.
About your doctor rework:
The ideas with the gens electrify is a really nice idea but why should a survivor get at all a movement speed bonus? I mean “hope” for an example (even though the perk is really underrated) the 7% are really painful as Killer and allows the survivor to loop the Killer at some specific spots where you couldnt do without it and would take alot of time to catch them. Usually you would put a downside to an abillity because it would be to strong without it, but I see no reason where the T3 at doctor would be to strong without it? Fake pallets on freddy for a example are against decent survivors not that strong, they are too random and help you only in 3/10 chases. But I wonder why doc has no chase ability at all? Idk if you just forgot to mention that or if I missread something but there is no chase ability besides illusionary objectiles. Thats what I mean with him becoming the new Legion. Maybe you miss some deep Killer knowledge or advanced survivor tactics but Legion is atm with leatherface the worst killer because they both have no chase ability (bubba has atleast some kind of chase abillity but it is really underwhelming). On red ranks only your M1 is not enough to kill ppl.
Hope you got my point and thanks for your reply.
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I don't know that I would describe camping as a flaw of the game. If you're new to the game it makes perfect sense to just cling to your single kill rather than risk losing everything. Bird in the hand is worth two in the bush mentality and all that.
I would say it's just a limitation of playing with real people. I think borrowed time cleverly fixes a lot of what this limitation brings because you don't even need to have borrowed time active to benefit from its protection. The killer knows borrowed time exists so he will, a lot of the time, err on the side of caution and assume everyone has borrowed time. It makes the "bird in the hand" the player who made themselves vulnerable by going to the unhook the best option and the injured player "bird in the bush".
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Hag I would agree, for billy it still feels like its just an artificial difficulty for something that should be simple for the character. I will have to think about this some more, but I currently believe the best option would be to take this away and buff him somewhere else to make up for it.
For some useless anecdotal evidence I remember Otz saying he doesn't like playing billy for this reason, and he uses an alternate control scheme or something just to limit the sensitivity spike.
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If Thrill would not be a totem then you wouldn't have any way to get rid of this perk and the killer would have a unlimited potential of snowballing
So if I understand your point(although the haunted ground bit lost me, let me know if im wrong), you are saying Thrill would become too powerful because getting totems would be impossible, and this would lead to certain hexes being overpowered. I considered this when making the change. Having thrill up does make shutting down the totem harder, but it is not impossible. and the killer has to protect the totem. With my new totem spawn rules the totem wont be near a generator, so the killer will have a hard time stopping a genrush if they are guarding their totem all game(plus if the totem is Devour hope, the genrush will be even more brutal). If the survivors do want to kill that hex totem, they can still cleanse dull totems to weaken the cleanse penalty.
(on doctor rework) Usually you would put a downside to an abillity because it would be to strong without it, but I see no reason where the T3 at doctor would be to strong without it?
The doctor has a whole suite of new abilities, including making him phase in and out, fake obstacles and escape routes, and a way to electrify vault locations via his shockwave attack. To win as the doc, you would get someone in tier 3, and then decide if they have a clear escape route. Even if the survivor has additional speed, they will have a hard time navigating the map to escape the doc. They will be avoiding obstacles that don't really exist, bumping into boarded up windows they thought were open and vaultable. Looking for an entrance to the shack when its direction has been rotated via hallucination. All while the doctor is chasing, phasing in and out, and electrifying the legitimate escape routes.
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I think a lot of changes you listed were amazing and would really improve this game 100%.
Some of them were iffy and need work, and some were outright not healthy for the game. But these were only a small portion you listed, a majority of it is incredible and I hope is seriously considered by the devs.
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Thank you for the kind words. The overall attitude barring a few attention trolls has been very positive and i'm happy to see that there are so many other players hungry for large changes in the game.
Regarding the changes you did not like, i know that the billy changes have gotten a lot of backlash, and the spirit portion needs a rewrite as people seem to misunderstand what I am going for. Is there anything beyond these areas that you strongly disliked? If you have the spare time I would love to know your thoughts. Thanks again.
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Donald Trump would like to see you with that great big WALL
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Sure, I'll try to get them all in an organized post for you.
I loved, LOVED a lot of your killer changes. That being said, you didn't list any changes that would fix Legion. Sure the ones you listed are needed, but they don't fix his underlying problem of being un-fun and very ineffective (like old Freddy, his power hurts him more than it helps him.) I don't play Legion so I can't really help with suggestions :(
Same for Clown, good suggestions but not addressing the core issue like you did with many others. Something to help with their map pressure and generator pressure ideally.
Hag suggestions were
oompf
, I'd play the game again with that.For your perk suggestions, I want to say I absolutely 100% agree with the design philosophy of changing perks that feel mandatory to run. I could not agree more with you on that.
I think Territorial Imperative might be too strong and encourage more camping, which is something we should try and avoid. The opposite end, I dislike your BBQ change. 8 seconds is too long, on old Nurse it would be definitely too OP. I think 5 seconds would be a good change though, to really try and encourage active counter-play so perks like Iron Maiden can actually see some use.
But like I said, these are only a few things, the rest is really great. I would love to see a lot of your changes in game.
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you forgot this is easy game, tf2 having much higher skillcap
this game can't be balanced as team fortress because this game starts with advantages, or disadvantages from any items players can use
im good at both games, especially good at demo
also im not welcoming any more skill gap or rule changes focused on players skill
because it can't fit in this game
serious game? still instaheals moris keys medkits toolboxes few addons donkey balanced
maybe i half understood whats your thought but i completely disagree
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With devour hope you cant genrush because the killer can start mori ppl insatntly after hooking 5 ppl I assume a killer should get this done before you finish all gens, so you are forced to destroy it at some point of the game. Thats what I meant, Imagin the killer uses Ruin, Devour, Haunted grounds and Thrill, then the survivors have to touch every totem until the devour is luckily destroyed, there is only 1 normal totem, even with your totem spawn rules and the survivors dont know which is devour. If you dont know the totem grab spirit build you should watch some videos about that.
And with doctor it is not enough for a chase abillity. A survivor with basic game knowledge knows how the shack and most of the other buildings or loops are build, that means you will always know where the shack pallet or where the entrance is. It is not hard to guess that. Pallet freddy is in some point not strong aswell compared to a good snairs freddy, why? Because it is easy to guess where the pallets are and where not if you know the pallet spawns.
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you didn't list any changes that would fix Legion. Sure the ones you listed are needed, but they don't fix his underlying problem of being un-fun and very ineffective.
I dont have enough experience going against legion as he is not too common, but as a killer I actually really like him after his rework. I just think he needs some quality of life changes to remove frustration, but power wise I actually think hes not bad at all. If I were pressed to make a legion buff I would just make his feral frenzy last longer but that's it.
Same for Clown, good suggestions but not addressing the core issue like you did with many others.
As a rule, I think it is much more interesting to buff a character's strengths than buff their weaknesses. If youre not careful then you run the risk of making every killer feel too samey because they don't have any hard limitations. Since clown is an excellent chaser and area denial killer, I opted to make him even more potent in those areas. TBH on review i believe my change to the clown might be too powerful and might lead to chases being non-existent. Its hard to say without testing, but I would always be very careful about taking away a killer's core weakness
I think Territorial Imperative might be too strong and encourage more camping
Youre probably right, its a hard perk to balance around and I sort of limits opportunities. Might be best to rework this one.
I dislike your BBQ change. 8 seconds is too long,
Perhaps, but there are so many counters to BBQ nowadays i find it hard to justify picking it up if it didn't come with the bonus BP. Currently I barely use it at all now that I have unlocked all the perks in the game.
Thanks for the feedback. Like I said in an earlier comment I am going to be doing a 2.0 of this list at some point and I will be talking your thoughts into consideration when that time comes. Cheers!
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I think you have misunderstood me, I merely took the design inspiration for my changes from TF2.
That being said, dont be so fast to call DBD the easier game. TF2 has a very high technical skill cap, but most of the decision making is on autopilot. DBD is all about making rapid decisions and time management, which is a skillset on its own.
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Imagin the killer uses Ruin, Devour, Haunted grounds and Thrill, then the survivors have to touch every totem until the devour is luckily destroyed
This strategy is playable in the game right now, and its not very effective unless you are playing a killer that doesn't need any perks. My totem changes limit the killer to only choosing one totem. Sorry but I'm not following you at all here.
And with doctor it is not enough for a chase abillity. A survivor with basic game knowledge knows how the shack and most of the other buildings or loops are build, that means you will always know where the shack pallet or where the entrance is. It is not hard to guess that.
Sure, the survivor know where the shack entrance is, but if the shack is rotated 90 degrees and you are running for a window that isn't there, its going to hurt you. It would only get worse in a crowded or indoor environment. If you cant imagine what I am describing then I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree here. But thank you for taking the time to clarify your thoughts. Best!
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Ah alright, I forgot about the one totem rule, but I wonder why? It would suck if you cant combine totems anymore with haunted grounds because you most likely use it with other totems together, sure you can use only haunted but it is not as effective as with a other hex paired.
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I think haunted grounds would still have a place because you would see a larger variety in totems being used, increasing the potential threat of those totems. In DBD the penalty for making mistakes is large. So when someone makes a threat, its very scary because you don't know if its a bluff.
So let's say you are in a game and you come across a lit totem. You worked on a gen and you know its not Ruin, the gates aren't powered yet so you know its not NOED. What do you do?
In the game as it is now, you might assume its haunted grounds because that is the third most used totem. But let's imagine all the totems were made viable, so that lit totem could be anything. Are you going to risk setting off haunted grounds if there is a real chance the killer is using devour hope? or huntress' lullaby? Depending on the round it might be worth the risk.
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least what im looking is still unbalanced but being even more complex way so it should never done
what i like the current balance more looks simply weak and strong
your ideas not even looks dead by daylight suggestions anymore but just long as #########,
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changes should be more intuitive and simple, thats the balance
this idea just you looks want to make whole new game, which only you could fully interest and understand
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I really really love this thread!
It's so interesting reading about your ideas and what you think should be changed in this game. I honestly wish some of these suggestions are ported over into the actual game because yeah, reading all of this makes me feel excited to play Dead by Daylight again (as I am currently burned out from all the Rift grinding ^^;)
I hope BHVR takes into consideration some of your ideas because I do think some of them are quite nice. Especially the ending cutscene for killer and survivor victories. That sounds like a great idea. Wish it's a thing in DBD.
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I'm sorry, but given the sheer volume of changes your proposing, I can't help but think this isn't the game for you.
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