By BHVR's own data, Spirit and even Nurse were not over performing.
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If you think it could help I could try to program in javascript a dynamic infograph, it would only need a dictionary to read the data from, something like:
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Maybe you don't play her at all? If you do, then you will understand how frustrating to play as her
FYI: i don't have fun playing as and against her after the changes
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The Nurse was frustrating for people to play as and against before the changes. So if she's still frustrating for you to play as and against, then it doesn't sound like anything's changed.
If anything, that tells me they didn't go far enough with their rework.
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You can't have the highest skill rate as Spirit since DCs aren't counted as kills 😋
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I had fun playing as her and against her before the change
After the change, when i play nurse, i literally looks at my power bar more than survivors
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Why would you have more fun playing against her pre-rework? She blinked more often, and had less downtime between blinks.
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Your research will tell you to make all killers 1v1 capable, regardless of the skill on the killer side. I see the trend. Addons on nurse that make her normal speed without her power. Why is her ultra rare so bad that I would never ever use them? It's very sad you made nurse into something survivors love and what nurses hate.
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.........
Post edited by redbeard92 on1 -
Not sure where you're getting that from I enjoyed base kit nurse much more before the rework that was the only way I played her. And lets me real it was a nerf to her base kit, since I didn't use the addons before or after the "Rework".
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as someone who got excited every time it was a Nurse I was against, for me it was because I played enough Nurse myself i knew what kind of mindgames would be effective against them. I’d try the basic stuff first, and get more advanced as we went depending on her skill level. I am absolutely abysmal at making chases last longer against normal killers...9/10 Nurses I could run around long enough they lost interest in me. The 10th Nurse was an honor to be killed by.
Now when i hear a Nurse I just wince because it’s going to be a very hard game for the person choosing to play her.
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No, we can not agree. Some of her addons were too much, but not her.
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Why spirit should have become an issue just recently? She has been the same till the beginning.
Oh I know why, because now that you got nurse nerfed you start looking for the next "sweaty" killer to destroy.
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They make numbers speak in their favor, when they need a rationale for what they do.
Its way too risky to admit that they have to follow the vast majority of survivors crying, since they must be 4 for each killer.
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I wonder who has the larger player base now? Hmmm pc or the consoles...
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Because basekit nurse was the most fun killer to play against, it brought everything you wish for. A completely skill based chase, permanent mindgames which both required the nurse and the survivor to be on top of their game. I miss that completely. Nurse now is a snoozefest.
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Yes and i imagine nurses stars have plummeted recently...as you've seen people are far from happy with the result..now spirit is under fire and we fear the same will be done to her..and to top off the cake, doc is being "changed" but not being focused on improvement to him..which means theres a chance he will still be poor..but not the doctor anymore...like a poor replica of something cool
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Man you guys have gone nutso since the last time I went on the forums :o
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She is now boring to verse. You can near enough outrun her now by running straight forward. If you have like a 10-20m headstart of her by the time she fatigues, she needs the entire map to even catch up to you, even on the biggest maps. This is even more boring than looping.
By the time she catches up to you, you just need to successfully LOS mindgame her ONCE, and you can run to the other side of the map with ease again.
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You lose 0.45m during the 3s cooldown
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If it's insignificant then you wouldn't mind having it removed.
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If its insignificant, you shouldn't cry about it.
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I'm not the one saying it is.
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Then your comment is sensefree in the first place
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Sorry, I took your comment as it isn't a big deal to lose 0.45 meters.
Even though you are losing much more than that.
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You lose a lot in the grand scheme of things, as blinking is a very fast travelling method. But you only lose 0.45m while you are following the survivor. So in a chase, it acts exactly as a 3s cooldown. Once you caught up to the survivor, you should always be in double blink distance.
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Ironically, PC red-rank survivor stats only seem to matter when if comes to bringing a killer down, instead of buffing weak killers and/or balancing perks, items, and maps for both sides.
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The reason why nurse tend to have such a low rate is typically because there is a vast difference between a good nurse and a baby nurse.
Even somebody who's the new on Killers like Hag Trapper and Billy would still be able to at least get some kills. Somebody who is new on nurse will have trouble downing a single survivor let alone killing them
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If we balanced around all ranks, we have people tell us that we needed to balance around good players. If we balance around good players, we have people tell us that we need to balance around all ranks. We try to be as fair as possible when it comes to balancing, but there's so many different skill levels out there that it's not possible to make it perfect for everyone every time.
If you were to balance her around low ranks (16-20), for example, we would have needed to buff her. I don't think I need to go into details of how ridiculous that would be for high level players. The Nurse has been considered one of the harder killers to play for a long time. The audience for her is not casual players.
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Hitting* Not downing friend
:^)))
Lol but really, wholeheartedly agree. My nurse play is ATROCIOUS.
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Out in the open with nothing that can block your view of the survivor.
If purely looking at 1 blink new vs old ignoring cumulative distance they seem similar. But before you just didn't 1 blink around the map or in chase. You 2 blinked and that's where it begins to hurt.
Blinking twice in the old system, in 2 blink cycles took you ~178 meters in ~34 seconds. Blinking only once in the new system in the same amount of time ~33s takes you ~158 meters and takes 5 cycles to complete.
Take into account terrain isn't alway flat and open and blinks might not take you as far as you want them to.
Just as a bonus. The time it takes for a single cycle current two blink is 11.9s and travels 58m. In the same 11.9s the old Nurse could travel 70.3m.
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Eh, balancing around all ranks is a pipe dream, and all near impossible for most developers.
Let's take Overwatch into example. Bastion. He is a nightmare for newer/lower ranked players. However, the more the players adapted, Bastion became so little a threat that he was hardly even played in Quick Play, even after his changes. How could such an oppressive force turn into a literal stack of walking legos in just a few ranks? Player Skill.
High rank players of EVERY side should have influence in game balance as they took the time to understand the game to its core. If a lower skilled player is upset with how things are... I hate to use this meme unironically, but they gotta GIT GUD. This is a competitive game, the ranking system wouldn't exist if it wasn't. The point of the game is to compete, and if they can't, they have to learn. And yes, that does mean through trial and error if they don't do the research. The point of the game is to grow, so why is balance being targeted toward people who haven't grown yet?
Emphasis on YET.
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So mobility wise, she got nerfed from 5.90 m/s to 4.87 m/s.
Considering that this is still faster than other killers 4.6 m/s, her mobility is still above average. More importantly she can skip terrain which adds extra distance and blink up and downstairs if needed. And her movement type gives less warning.
Her lethality potential is still the same, except you wait 3s more if you miss. All things considered, she is still the best killer, right? Her chase has way more potential than Spirit and she has arguably better map pressure, since Spirit has to wisely choose between mobility phasing and 110% patrolling. Better than Spirit sounds more than managable to me. Granted you do take on the challenge to get the blinks right.
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Those speed numbers only work if using full distance blinks which are mainly used in traveling across maps. Maps also need to be clear of obstacles that can get in the way of landing at that max distance. As stated earlier overall distance has been diminished because you are forced into 1 blink mode.
If using full distance blinks in chase you can easily be juked and waste a lot of time. Chases become longer around structures and buildings as blinking twice without a hit is too risky to make
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You lose like 0.1m when you blink into a tile. What else are you blinking for mobility? 1 Fullcharge blink and then you're at 4.87 m/s. Thats it. The distance is lower than before, but still better than the others.
In a chase you should aim for the survivor, your m/s doesn't matter. And once you went for a double blink, hit or miss, you are always in range for the next double blink. Its literally the same nurse gameplay, except you wait 3s for a double blink miss. Thats it
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I'm seriously questioning if you play Nurse or just look at numbers. You are basing a lot on perfectly blinking max distance which is not the norm.
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I honestly dont get what you're trying to proof. In a chase you blink at the survivor, fulldistance or not. Its simple. And then you're always in range for the next one, unless you blinked in the opposite direction. What are you trying to say?
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true proved that if you miss your blink attack a survivor can run in a straight line and you CANNOT catch up in 2 blinks because of the cooldown.
It sounds like you're relying on napkin math too heavily.
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Well i call bullshit on that. :D
You dont even lose half a metre because of the cooldown. Show me that "proof", im all eyes and ears.
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Iol so napkin math is fine for you but i need to go dig through vods? Kk
You get that the cooldown is after the already significant fatigue, right?
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You could use your own head instead of listening to streamers. Tru3 also thought billy was the worst at release.
Compared to old nurse: You blink close to the suirvivor, but miss. Old Nurse was easily within range for her next blink. New nurse walks 3s and loses half a metre, is she still in range? Come on dude
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Dude this is an unreal level of dissonance and I'm genuinely impressed.
Good luck in the fog and i hope you have a great day.
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Ehhhh, i didn't meant to trigger you. You start the discussion in a cheeky way... genuinely confused about your reaction. But have a good one too
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Because Nurse and Spirit are hard by design. Therefore a large portion of people will suck with them, therefore causing data to be skewed towards them not seeming powerful, when in fact they definitely are.
You'd have to be insane to believe Nurse was balanced. While I dont have the same sentiment with Spirit, the same rules apply, she's hard to play, therefore she seems statistically like she isnt as good as she is.
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No triggering, you just don't seem interested in actually engaging and instead want to make assumptions about me based on the fact that I watch a popular streamer sometime, while saying "Just use your head brah" to justify your napkin math. Just don't see this conversation going very far so I'll bow out. Laters.
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You literally just threw that random claim from a streamer without evidence and ignored my easy af example. Here's a Tru3 game:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/507493898?filter=all&sort=time
Seems like Nurse is still the same. From Tru3 who apparantly claimed it? Wait what?
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And if they had balanced her for the majority of players (i.e. buffed her), most of the good Survivor players would have quit.
It's not a good strategy to completely ignore good players when you're trying to balance your game. It sends a message to your playerbase: That you shouldn't try to master the game, and if you get good at the game, then the devs no longer care about you or your feedback. It's not a sustainable business strategy, because over time, all of your veteran players will inevitably quit, and you can't keep replacing them with newcomers if all the veterans are review-bombing your game.
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Because things aren't as bad for high-ranking Killers as some people would have you believe. Every single killer has an average kill-rate above 50%, even in the red ranks.
If you balance gen times around high ranks, then nobody's going to finish the gens in the low ranks. If you balance keys around high ranks, then they just become useless. If you balance around SWF, then you either discourage people from playing with their friends in an online multiplayer game (I'm pretty sure I don't need to tell you why that's a terrible idea), or you punish people harshly for choosing to play solo.
It's really as simple as what Peanits said: If they balance around all ranks, then people complain that they should be balancing around good players. If they balance around good players, then people complain that they should be balancing around the majority. No matter how good you are at game development, it's extremely difficult to keep people happy at every skill level.
Not to mention that they just deleted insta-heals, something that high-ranking killers have been complaining about for ages. But you seem to expect them to address every complaint overnight, and come up with perfect solutions to highly complex issues, when that's just not realistic. If you want a good solution to things like gen times, keys, and SWF, you have to take the time to brainstorm, test, and iterate upon your changes until you're certain that you're making the right decision.
If you try to rush the development process, you set yourself up for disaster. There are hundreds of examples of terrible videogames that were rushed through the development cycle, and paid the price. And plenty of ongoing games that destroyed their own playerbase with a laundry list of hasty, ill-conceived changes. Like Star Wars: Galaxies, for example.
Or if you're really fed up with all of those things and don't want to wait, you can always just go play Deathgarden. A lot of its design choices were an attempt to learn from the persistent issues that plague DBD.
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My source is BHVR. Peanits posted in a thread, saying that all killers get more than 2 kills, on average, even in the red ranks. Granted, I don't work at Behaviour and I don't have personal access to their database, so I can't 100% verify the truth of their claim, but I'm going to take a leap of faith and assume that BHVR wouldn't tell a blatant lie to their customers on a matter such as this.
As for your second point, I was mostly being hyperbolic. But I think my point still stands: You have to temper your expectations, and if you want BHVR to come up with well-thought-out, productive solutions to common complaints about the game, you have to be patient.
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@thatguyinktown Yeah, here's the comment, from a different thread:
Also, I disagree with the notion that this change was made at the expense of everyone. The change only affects Nurse mains. Every killer who mains a killer other than Nurse is unaffected by this change.
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